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How to know that homosexuality is a sin, for certain?

ewq1938

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One thing to remember is that homosexuality is more than just one sin since it's homosexuality AND fornication, and (if sexual) sex outside of marriage etc etc...
 
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ewq1938

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Thank you for the reply. However, I thought that I was clear that all sexual activity-out side the marriage-is fornication and detestable to Almighty God.

Yep. My point is that homosexuality is an extra sin on top of a sin or sins two heterosexuals would be committing.

Example: man and woman have sex but aren't married- that's fornication.
Two men have sex and that's not only fornication but homosexuality also so more sin is involved.

It's all sinful stuff but there is a little more sin involved when it's homosexual in nature.
 
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A.ModerateOne

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Andrew, I'm not following you about the Torah. The first time "fornication" is found in the LXX is the following:

"And it came to pass after three months, that it was told Judas, saying, Thamar thy daughter-in-law has grievously played the harlot, and behold she is with child by whoredom(πορνεία porneia/fornication); and Judas said, Bring her out, and let her be burnt." (Gen 38:24, LXXE)

I do not find "fornication" in the OT where the genders are shown as male to male. I checked the Jewish Encyclopedia on fornication and it talks about nothing but the M-F relationships nothing about M-M.
FORNICATION - JewishEncyclopedia.com

You have used the modern translation wording "immoral sexual acts" and that is about as meaningless as can be imagined, and that is the problem, it invites very imaginative ideas about what it means. You write that the translations that use the word "homosexuals" are for emphasis and I do not follow you there either. If it is for emphasis, it means it is emphatically not "fornication".
 
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Andrewn

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I do not find "fornication" in the OT where the genders are shown as male to male. I checked the Jewish Encyclopedia on fornication and it talks about nothing but the M-F relationships nothing about M-M. FORNICATION - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Some time ago, I looked up the usage of "porneya" in the LXX. Most occurrences there are related to sacred prostitution and idolatry. Also, the definition in the Jewish Encyclopedia is quite limited.

Most theologians agree that "porneya" is used in the NT as a generic term for illegitimate sexual activity. This NT generic term includes a variety of sexual activities that were listed and prohibited in the Torah, especially in Leviticus, even though the term "porneya" is not used to describe these activities in the LXX. Among those activities are adultery and homosexual practices.

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither the fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,

In 1Co 6:9, generic fornication is mentioned (which includes adultery and homosexual activity). In addition, adultery and homosexual practices receive a specific mention to emphasize their sinfulness. But in several NT lists of sins we find only porneya / fornication mentioned, e.g.

Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the abominable, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars shall have their portion in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.”

In this list, adulterers are not mentioned. Should we conclude that fornication is more serious than adultery? Of course not. Adulterers, practicing homosexuals, pedophiles, and those who practice beastiality are automatically included in the category of fornicators and did not need to be mentioned separately.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Romans 1:26-27 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
26 Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex with men and started having sex with other women. 27 In the same way, men stopped having natural sex with women and began wanting each other all the time. Men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they received the punishment for those wrongs.

Lust usually goes first in those cases.
 
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hedrick

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I think the original question is what Jesus would have meant. Or more precisely, what the Greek translations of his teaching mean, since we don't know the precise words he used. The OT and even the LXX are useful, but the real question is what the word meant in the 1st Cent. That's why people consult lexicons and not the OT.

I use the Theological Dictionary of the NT. This very extensive lexicon shows word usage in the secular world, the OT, literature between the testaments, and the NT. In the case of porneia, they cite examples to show that by the 1st Cent it was used for all sex outside marriage, including same-gender sex.

However the word is actually pretty rare in Jesus teaching. There is also context for almost all occurrences in Jesus' teaching that allow us to determine a more specific meaning.
  • Mat 5:32 and 19:9 are pretty clearly adultery or at least something inappropriate within marriage.
  • Luke 15:30 is pretty clearly prostitution.
  • Mat 12:31-32 is generally understood from context to be prostitutes.
  • Mat 15:19 || Mark 7:21 is the only reference that might be generic. However the version of the list in Matthew seems to correspond to sins in the 10 commandments. That would imply that it means adultery. If you think he has misinterpreted Mark, then Mark would be the only reference whose context doesn't specify a meaning. In that case you could use the general 1st Cent meaning.
I am speaking here specifically of Jesus' use of the term. This analysis doesn't apply to other NT books. But there had been discussion about Jesus' own teaching. In sin lists outside the Gospels, the common 1st Cent meaning may well be appropriate.
 
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A.ModerateOne

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Andrew, I'm going to explain why I find this important and refuse to leave what the Scriptures themselves clearly state. I was in high school in the late 1950's, born and raised in church, a Christian guy. My personal dictionary was a Random House College dictionary. It defined fornication and adultery both as sins specifically between males and females in reference to marriage, which at the time was indeed m-f. I'll give you an example of how it was usually seen in the past.

"noun The act of illicit sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried person with a person of the opposite sex, whether married or unmarried."
and
"noun Unlawful sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried person; the act of such illicit sexual intercourse between a man and a woman as does not by law amount to adultery."
fornication - definition and meaning

If you check those two dictionaries you'll see they are older, not dictionaries of today.

The Stonewall Riot in 1969 was the beginning of gay activism. Gay's began to think of each other as spouses, and began to refer to each other in those terms. Gradually, the sins that historically been defined in reference to marriage, which was m-f, these sin labels began to be used by gays for their unions. It was after that it seemed that the Christians gradually joined with them and started calling homosexuality "fornication".

Guess what then happened? Once the church started applying sins that previously pertained to marriage, to the gays; the church had lost credibility to have any power to oppose the perversion of marriage by legalizing same-sex marriage. I am speaking from personal observation over my lifetime, not from any particular study. I prefer to stick with the clear, plain statements of Scripture and on this topic, I choose translations prior to 1946, such as the KJV, ASV before modern sexual terms of psychology began to be read into the Scriptures.

"Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." (1Cor 4:6, ASV)

In closing I suggest caution with some reference works such as those claiming to be "Strong's" or "Thayers", especially on our computer Bibles. The following is the definition of arsenokoites: in the computer Thayers:

"one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual"

The definition in my unabridged, hardcover Thayers reads:

"one who lies with a male as with a female, a sodomite"
 
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Andrewn

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It is reassuring when two different method reach similar conclusions. I have a tendency to skip steps when solving a problem. Certainly, studying common 1st century application is essential.
 
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Andrewn

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I'm going to explain why I find this important and refuse to leave what the Scriptures themselves clearly state.
Informative historical review. You showed that the meaning of "fornication" has changed over the last decades. One can similarly see that the meaning of "porneya" changed from being restricted to "prostitution" in the LXX to being more of a generic term in the NT inclusive of the illegitimate sexual practices described in the book of Leviticus.

I suggest caution with some reference works such as those claiming to be "Strong's" or "Thayers", especially on our computer Bibles.
It's so easy, tempting, and immoral to make changes in electronic versions of books.
 
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Not David

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You will need to know what is the goal of a relationship and marriage. Marriage is a mystery in which God imparts us grace.
 
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