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How to know that homosexuality is a sin, for certain?

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by DaughterOfChrist0, Sep 12, 2019.

  1. DaughterOfChrist0

    DaughterOfChrist0 New Member

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    Hello everyone. I’m trying to understand the Scripture’s stance on homosexuality, and am praying that God will move it in the hearts of Christians with a deeper understanding of scripture than I to aid me in this difficult time in my life.

    Almost a year ago now, I ended an 8 year same-sex relationship. I loved my partner and wanted to be with her forever, but I felt so guilty at the thought of living in a way that Jesus would not approve of. I didn’t want to forever have a wall between us because I was hurting him by sinning in my relationship every day. So I ended the relationship. For a long time, I was in utter agony. But then I began to do better, focusing on seeking God every day.

    However still I would catch myself daydreaming of what could’ve been, if only I’d been allowed to stay with her. Well, recently, we spoke and I discovered that she has moved on to another same-sex relationship, and she said she is no longer in love with me. Although we left things on a friendly note, my heart is aching, and I’m embarrassed that after so long, a part of me still hasn’t let go. I’ve realized where I’ve gone wrong.

    In the garden of Eden, Eve was vulnerable to the serpent’s deception because she was unclear about the Word of God. God said not to eat of the fruit of tree, but never said not to touch the tree like she claimed he had, so when Satan said, you surely will not die, and she touched the tree and nothing changed, she must have instantly lost belief in the Word. If Satan can make us confused about God’s Word, or doubt God’s Word, we are vulnerable.

    I constantly question what the Word says about homosexuality. I’m willing to say it’s a sin. I’m willing to confess that I’ve struggled with it and turned away. I’m willing to give up anything for Him. I am not by any means trying to see how much I can get away with, I never want to live that way. If I could say to myself without a doubt that God’s Word says NO to homosexuality, then I could be sure that nothing good could ever have come from remaining in the relationship, and I can move on. But because a part of me has always doubted this deep down, a part of me was always daydreaming. Wondering if maybe my family could have come to accept us. Missing all of our times together, our old routines, not letting go of gifts from them, hanging on and hanging on and hanging on. Giving almost my whole self to God, but with one foot still in my past. For the past year, I focused on getting to know and serving and loving God, and didn’t give as much focus to understanding what He says about homosexuality. Now, I think I need to do this, or else I will remain vulnerable in this area.

    There are so many things that make homosexuality being a sin seem unclear. People talk about the word ‘homosexuality’ not having even existed back then. When I looked at the parts of the Bible where the act of homosexuality is described rather than just called ‘homosexuality’ I found that in the original Greek wording of Paul’s writings, it was summarized in one word, a word that one commentary claimed meant homosexual relationships, whereas another commentary claimed it meant ‘effeminate men.’ I feel so guilty because in my heart I feel homosexuality must be a sin. All signs point to yes. But I don’t want to rely on signs or theories. I don’t want to feel unsure of what I should say when people ask me if it’s a sin, and then in turn wonder if I made a mistake by leaving my relationship. I don’t want to tell people “I left to play it safe, but I don’t actually know if it’s a sin, I just couldn’t risk it.” I want to be able to say, “I left because it is a sin and I want nothing to come before Christ in my life. I want to serve Him as best as I can.” But when I say this, there is a small part of me that always wonders, IS it a sin?

    I’m in such heart ache, but I feel I cannot fully avoid the temptation of calling my ex and begging to give it another chance, to stop myself from wondering and wondering, until I can say to myself I did the right thing. I did what God wanted me to do. I obeyed God’s Word.

    I know many people will likely tell me “you either believe what it says or don’t” but I just feel so lost as to what it even truly says on this matter. Can someone tell me, how do you KNOW with 100 percent certainty that it is a sin? I want to know too. I’m willing to give up ANYTHING for God. I just want to strengthen my knowledge of the Sword of the Spirit on this matter so that Satan cannot disarm me. So that I’m no longer vulnerable. If anyone could take the time to help me by explaining, or by praying for me on this matter, there aren’t words to describe the gratitude I would have.

    (Please do not give an answer without scripture to support it. For example, if someone, even with the best intentions, were to write ‘in my opinion I think God is okay with it’ it would be really hurtful to me right now and only add to my temptation to return to my old ways. I’m seeking God’s Word so that I know what He wants me to do. I say this as kind as I can, but please, no opinions.)
     
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  2. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    And have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them out of the fire.Jude 1:22-23

    This was the passage that inspired me to stand in the gap for a man I’d never have for 7 years. I forsook my heart and his numerous gestures for the sake of the greater gain.

    Seeing him mired in sin while I was liberated made me ache. I loved his soul too much to leave him in that state. Even though it meant he’d find another and will likely do so again when he comes to faith.

    To feed my flesh in deference to his salvation is a horror I couldn’t contemplate. To sate my heart at the expense of him finding God is abominable.

    What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? Mark 8:36

    Love (1 Corinthians 13):

    does not insist on its own way.

    does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
    bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

    I loved him.
     
  3. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is always best to go back to the beginning and go from there. Genesis chapter one is the book of beginning. The first word in the Bible is beginning. The first letter represents tent or dwelling. We see here God's desire to dwell with His creation. From there we can go to verse 27: "So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." With Jesus we are the Bride. We know that Jesus wants to be united together with us. Just as God made them male and female so they could be united together as one. Even we have this testimony in same sex relationships. For example Elton John is the wife and Ellen is the husband. So even they testify that God plan and purpose was for there to be a male and female united together as one. Or if we are single my opinion is we need to be in harmony and unity with our-self and Jesus.

    The emotions we feel are usually produced by hormones like Oxycontin. This is the cuddle hormone and is common in animals also. We learn about this in the prairie vole who are known to mate for life.

    We know that God made them Male and Female and this is an example of the connection Jesus wants to have with us. This is God's desire to be united with His Creation. This is the beginning the starting point.

    The man is the be the head of the dwelling, he is the strength. This is represented by an Ox. The female is the Strength for the child and the W for women represents the water that gives us life. As we can not live without water. Again it is God's desire to dwell with man and all of the symbols or archetypes are important and to confuse them is going to confuse God plan and purpose for us.
     
  4. Anthony2019

    Anthony2019 "Only Me!" Supporter

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    Hello DaughterofChrist and thanks for sharing your experience.
    I am very sorry to hear of the pain and grief you have felt following the break up of your relationship. I think it is very easy for bystanders to criticise another's situation or to offer simple answers, but it is very different for the one who has been through that experience and coming to terms with how they feel. You clearly loved your partner very much, they have been a very important part of your life, and my thoughts and feelings go out to you at this time.
    I'm afraid I have no real answers to your questions - I am not wise enough nor clever enough to know the complete mind of God regarding your situation. But I know enough about God to know that He loves and cares for you very much, wants the very best for you, and wants you to draw you closer to Him. He knows exactly how you are feeling and wants you to cast all your burdens onto Him because He cares for you. Keep trusting on Him and leaning on Him, and He will help you through your situation and lead you to where He wants you to be.
    Wishing you every blessing.
     
  5. Andrewn

    Andrewn Active Member Supporter

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    Rom 1:24 "Therefore God gave them over in the evil desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies with one another. 25 They traded the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to shameful passions. Even their women exchanged natural relations for what is against nature.

    27 Likewise the men abandoned natural relations with women and were burning with passion toward one another—men committing shameful acts with other menand receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to recognize God, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what is not fitting."

    This is what the Bible teaches. We all have our heartaches.
     
  6. ajcarey

    ajcarey Active Member

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    Okay, first of all creation. The saying "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" might seem trite, but it is expressing an eternal moral truth and the principle in the saying does indeed in itself refute the legitimacy of homosexuality in God's eyes. From the beginning God made the woman for the man; that is His design which nature itself bears witness to; men with men and women with women, as well as men acting like women and women acting like men, are violations of that design.

    Genesis 2:21-24: "21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

    Jesus' commentary in the Gospels on this (remember Jesus is the eternal Word of God):
    Mark 10:6-8: "6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
    7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh."

    Early in the Bible God destroyed entire cities who were practicing homosexuality. Though we know by Ezekiel 16 that gluttony, pride, slothfulness, and malice towards the poor and needy were major sins of Sodom and Gomorra, we know by what happened that precipitated the judgment of destruction in Genesis 19, and by the inspired Apostle Jude's commentary in the New Testament, that rampant homosexuality was indeed the transgression which caused this judgment, or was at least the final provocation of God before He lost patience and poured out this judgment.

    Genesis 19:24-25: "24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground."

    Jude 5-7: "5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

    God then codified His laws to counter and properly deal with the evil that fallen, sinful, impenitent man was expressing. He thus spoke through His faithful servant Moses:
    Leviticus 18:22: "22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

    You see by this chapter that God categorizes this along with many other heinous sexually related sins. You see by the closing verses of this same chapter that these were moral laws which He expected all men to follow- not ceremonial/ritual laws which He gave specifically to Israel and only expected Israel to follow. Two chapters later He gave His verdict as to how Israel's judges (not private citizens taking the law into their own hands) were to deal with those convicted of this offense.

    Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

    When Jesus came in the flesh and began His public ministry, virtually the first thing He made clear was that His preaching was not to be taken to destroy Moses' law, but to faithfully uphold it since it never can nor will pass away.

    Matthew 5:17-18: "17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

    Matthew 7:12-14: "12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

    Matthew 23:1-3: "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

    Jesus after His resurrection taught His Apostles that as they went forth preaching the gospel to all nations they were to teach those they baptized to observe all things whatsoever He commanded them.

    Matthew 28:16-20: "16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
    18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

    Thus we see Jesus' Apostles, whom He set up as leaders of His church and the foremost examples of faithful Christians, affirming the authority of the judgments of God's Law and teaching in accordance with those; and as a result like their Master upholding the truths taught in the Law of Moses (which includes Genesis) and the OT as whole- particularly insisting that the morality taught therein be agreed with, held to, and obeyed by any who would be a faithful Christian and a partaker of Christ's redemption- even describing homosexuality in Romans 1 as a chief example of the wickedness which God has given people over to who glorify him not as God and partake of idolatry.

    2 Timothy 3:15-17: "15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

    Romans 1:22-27: "22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10: "9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

    Ephesians 4:17-20: "17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ" (these particular verses aren't specifically about homosexuality, but they sure reprove the spirit behind it)

    Revelation 22:12-16: "12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
    -Note: Any and all sexually involved activity contrary to God's law can be generally classified as whoremongering or fornication.

    You wanted a detailed answer from Scripture, so there it is:)
     
  7. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Scripture condemns homosexuals themselves as well as their sexual acts.


    1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Effeminate here is:


    G3120
    µa?a??´?
    malakos
    Thayer Definition:
    1) soft, soft to the touch
    2) metaphorically in a bad sense
    2a) effeminate
    2a1) of a catamite
    2a2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
    2a3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
    2a4) of a male prostitute
    Part of Speech: adjective
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity

    It refers to the effeminate and the homosexual nature to be sexually submissive to another male. God does not only oppose homosexual acts but the very unnatural homosexual nature itself.


    Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination.


    Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.


    Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.



    Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.




    1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    1 Timothy 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;



    Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.




    1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.





    1Co 5:9 I did write to you in the epistle, not to keep company with whoremongers--
    1Co 5:10 and not certainly with the whoremongers of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, seeing ye ought then to go forth out of the world--
    1Co 5:11 and now, I did write to you not to keep company with him , if any one, being named a brother, may be a whoremonger, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--with such a one not even to eat together;

    whoremonger here is the word pornos:

    G4205
    p?´????
    pornos
    por'-nos
    From pe´???µ? perne¯mi (to sell; akin to the base of G4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), that is, (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine): - fornicator, whoremonger.

    It's a reference to male homosexuals, whether as a prostitute or by analogy a man who is a debauchee, someone who delights in perverted sexual experiences ie: homosexual.
     
  8. Bruce Leiter

    Bruce Leiter Member

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    AJCarey said it like it is, a sin.
     
  9. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    I know you are feeling a lot of deep emotion and confusion right now. Pray to the Lord and ask Him to help you. When one is deeply hurting inside, sometimes it can take a while ... Jesus heals the broken hearted.

    Know that the Lord loves you more than your mind can conceive. He wants you to have peace. He wants all of us to have peace. He wants to help all us to overcome sin ... and He works in all of us helping us to become stronger and stronger in Him.

    Romans 5:8
    But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    We have a sin nature ... that is ... we are more inclined to sin ... than not to sin. This nature was passed on from the fall of Adam and Eve.

    Romans 3:23
    For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    The Lord loves the person yet hates sin .... any sin. One sin is not greater than the other in the Lords eyes. We all struggle with sin .. all of us! Even the apostle Paul struggled with sin.

    Romans 7:18
    For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

    Even so, we are to pursue what is right in the eyes of God.

    Philippians 3:14 King James Version (KJV)

    14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    God created man and woman to be joined together in marriage. He bestowed upon them the the wonderful blessing to pro-create in order to have a family.

    Family is also extremely important to the Lord.
    Family relationships are vital because they are a pattern for how we live and relate within the family of God. When we received God's Spirit at salvation, God made us full sons and daughters by formally adopting us into his spiritual family. We were given the same rights as children born into that family. God did this through Jesus Christ.

    Ephesians 5:25: “For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church. He gave up his life for her." Genesis 2:24: “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."

    God being the creator and knows more about us than we know about ourselves ... and thus knows the way we should live that will bring them true and lasting happiness. When we go outside of His creation intent ... then sooner or later adverse consequences happen and lasting happiness flies out the window (so to speak).

    Colossians 3:5
    Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

    Galatians 5:19-21
    Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Hebrews 13

    4Marriage should be honored by all and the marriage bed kept undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.

    Sex (any kind) outside of marriage between a man and women is sin. The sin is lust of the flesh and is considered idolatry.

    Romans 1:26-27, Paul said, “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.”

    We are not to even have impure thoughts.

    It’s undeniable that all of us are tempted to impure thoughts, and most likely more than every now and then. This impurity is a lust for anything outside that which God has blessed, which is a relationship between a man and a woman in marriage. (Hebrews 13:4) If one is not married, then it is clear that all such thoughts are impurity. And one is married, then any thoughts outside of your marriage are impurity. So many people are completely bound in those lusts. The desires that we experience that go against God’s will.

    In other words, a desire for anything sinful. See James 1:14. Also called “sin in the flesh.” Although the expression “youthful lusts” is often thought of in... and desires; it’s something that has a tight hold on them. But that doesn’t mean that we have to remain that way! Just like any other lust and desire to sin, we have to fight against it to become free from it and Jesus helps us fight.

    But the glorious thing is that we can become completely free. Not that our natural attraction to people is completely wiped out, but that we are not slaves to impurity, in thought or in deed. It can be easy to think that as long as we abstain from sexual impurity we’re doing fine. It can be easy to assume that we can’t control our thoughts. But God’s Word tells us that the inside of the cup must be cleansed as well as the outside. Matthew 23:26 It also says that we need to bring every thought into captivity. 2 Corinthians 10:5 That means that we should be in control of our thoughts, not the other way around. And it’s entirely possible. We can come to a peaceful, joyous freedom and rest when we become free from that.

    Being friends (brothers and sisters in Christ) we are to love one another .... love without physical or mental lustful desires for a person.

    The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and make you remember all that I have told you. John 14:26

    May the Lord sustain you with a willing spirit as He continues to reveal His truth to you and as you walk with Him. Amen

    When we sin we are to ask for forgiveness, receive it, repent and begin anew.

    Continue in His Word and be blessed by it.

    Apologize for the long post. ;o)
     
  10. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus says, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (in Luke 9:62)

    So, it is not wise to look back. It is wrong just to give attention to it, in some favoring way. God has so better for us >

    "Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

    God's love is so better. So, getting isolated with some one person is part of why it is wrong to be in same-sex stuff >

    "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

    This, then, goes for other relationships in which people are mainly about pleasing each other and not first seeking to please and obey God.

    "You are not restricted by us, by you are restricted by your own affections." (2 Corinthians 6:12)

    You are seeing how it is wrong because it is restrictive, limiting you to some one person and certain activities which are for pleasure. Preference for pleasure more than for God is an included sin problem.

    Romans 1:18-32

    Jesus says, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23)

    So, most of all is not only what we give up and sacrifice; most of all is to deny ourselves, and take up our cross daily, and follow Jesus. And with Jesus we discover how better our love living becomes.

    "Because Your lovingkindness is better than life,
    .My lips shall praise You." (Psalm 63:3)

    It is wrong, because it and its memories keep you from experiencing God in His love, and learning how to love in family caring and sharing with various Jesus family people.

    Romans 1:18-32

    Not only a sin > Romans 1:18-32

    Romans 1:18-32 is clear it is not natural, plus it is a consequence with an internal "penalty" for putting pleasure ahead of God. It includes the built-in punishment of missing out on how we can personally share with God and with one another as His family.

    Malachi 2:14-15 is clear that sexual union is for producing "godly offspring". So, if intimate activity is mainly or only for sensual experience, it is not truly sexual because it is not for reproducing children who are pleasing to God and who know how to love and relate.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The short answer (more tomorrow)?

    We must look at how God established relationships between Him and His Imago Dei creation—us. And how God established relationships between man and woman.

    The original created order is from God. What transpired after the Fall are the wicked machinations of fallen sinful mankind.

    Jesus emphasized the created order, the design of God in Matthew 19. Folks here have already posted the verses. But Jesus affirmed the one man one woman union as being from the beginning (Genesis 2:24)

    Anything outside of that union to include divorce, homosexual relations and out of marriage sex is fornication. Which means illicit sex.

    God made everything “Good.” Another way to concretely say that is everything was functional according to God’s design.

    When mankind fell by the disobedience of Adam, things became dysfunctional and not only sexual sins.

    You poured your heart out in the OP. I will be praying the Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ lead you to wisdom and understanding. That His Grace will lead you to live your life for Him.
     
  12. Grumman Tomcat

    Grumman Tomcat The LORD is my Pilot Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    MOD HAT ON
    Homosexuality, same-sex marriage, bisexuality, transsexualism and transgenderism may not be promoted* on CF (including member profiles). Several debate forums allow homosexuality, same-sex marriage, bisexuality, transsexualism and transgenderism to be discussed from a political, legal, historical, and civil rights point of view. Please check the Statement of Purpose thread for individual debate forums before posting. Homosexuality, same-sex marriage, bisexuality, transsexualism and transgenderism may be discussed, without promotion*, in the Congregational in line with each group's beliefs there. You may post without promotion* in the Struggles with Sexuality and Ask a Chaplain forums solely for the purpose of seeking support with personal struggles related to these issues.
    MOD HAT OFF
     
  13. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    As you can see in some posts on the thread, homosexuality breaks God's moral Law. Therefore, according to the Law, there is a penalty that has to be paid which involves separation from God, the expectation of divine judgment, and an eternity in hell, being subject to the continuous wrath of God.

    But in saying that, homosexuality is just one breach of the Law among many other breaches that people make. The Scripture says that we all have broken the Law, and so deserve the same penalty. Somehow those who pick out homosexuality as the unforgiven sin forget that any breach of the Law brings the penalty of God's wrath and an eternity in hell.

    The reason this has to be said is to awaken the conscience of those who are breaking the Law (that is, all of us) so that we know from the Holy Spirit what our true standing before God actually is. This is the first part of the true and honest gospel. It is not pleasant, and rightly so. It is designed to give us a deep godly fear of our holy and Living God. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.

    It does sound like that your conscience is being activated about it, seeing that you are asking about it.

    The good news is that homosexuality is not the unforgivable sin. The next part of the gospel is that Jesus died for you and paid your penalty for sin. This means that receiving Christ by God's grace, through faith saves you from an eternity in hell. Your salvation is not of yourself; it is the gift of God to you.

    Once that happens, the Holy Spirit starts working in you to sanctify you and to develop conformity to the nature of Christ in you.

    Developing holiness is not a five minute job, and you can't achieve it how or when you want it. It is Jesus' workmanship in you. You will struggle, not only with your own desires, but with the judgmental nature of religious people who will attack you with condemnation because of their intolerance and homophobia.

    But the truth is that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. But even though you might not win the war against your sexual orientation, if you treat it as an unwelcome parasite in your life and continue in prayer that God will work holiness in you, then you will show that your heart is changed, even though your flesh will shriek and struggle as you try to keep it on the altar.
     
  14. Job3315

    Job3315 Well-Known Member

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    I am so proud of you! Your honesty and vulnerability is admirable!

    We must start with the definition of sin. Sin is a separation of God and men and viceversa. Men got disconnected from the Spirit of God when they sinned. Sin, as in symptoms of the separation, is anything that goes against God's original plan; nature.

    In Romans 1:26-27 says, "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."

    I heard someone say that God created homosexuality and that He gave people that unnatural desire because this verse says "God gave them up", but I searched a long time ago and realized Paul meant God let them have their way, to do what they wanted. Also, God gives us of Himself and He doesn't have sin in Him. We were made in His image, so as He is, so are we.

    Now, here comes the revelation. We struggle with sin (individual unnatural acts) because we still don't know how to receive from God what we are seeking. God provides what we need, and He might use people, things, etc to supply our needs, but we tend to seek things on our own. Our source is supposed to be God, our whole lives we are seeking love because God is love and that's what we lost in the Garden of Eden. We have an innate desire to seek love, but we are seeking to fill that desire from people, objects, food; anything we run to first for comfort, anything we focus on, that's where we are seeking what only God can provide. Thats why people are so addicted, because the devil has created idols to be accessible. That process of learning to rely on God to supply can be a dry/valley of the shadows/desert journey because you are dying to yourself, and well, dying is not fun, but that's where God does a lot of pruning. The trick is to be honest with Him, to bring your desires, your pure heart to Him, don't hide your temptations from Him, don't pray what you think you want Him to pray, tell Him everything, including your desire to not sin against Him.

    From my understanding, people who suffer from homosexuality tend to run to the opposite sex of someone who hurt them (physically, emotionally or even spiritually). So if you were hurt by a woman, you tend to run towards men, if you were hurt by men, you tend to run towards women. This is not 100% accurate as I've learned culture and bad rol models also play a role, but those its lower percentage while 90% is an issue with a parent.

    In most cases homosexuality is not about the actual sex between the two, but about connection and emotional intimacy and the, in many cases, a hidden natural but subconscious response of running and wanting to protect yourself from the one who hurt you. So people tend to get a need filled from someone they feel comfortable with.

    If your case is not due to culture or bad role model, which are easier stop because hurts need to be brought up to the surface and then healed and in many cases we don't even know the hurt or lie is in there, you can ask the Holy Spirit to show you where you were rejected, hurt or abused by someone and to show you how that played a role in your desires and what lie the devil placed in your heart to make you have that unnatural desire. See if He responds; brings a memory and talk to Him about it, how you felt, what happened, let Him guide you. Maybe you already know, maybe you don't know. But let the Holy Spirit guide you.

    Another thing to consider is generational iniquities; curses from your genealogy. So if is a pattern in your family, then you can learn about the authority you have in Jesus to cancel any curses and bless your life and future generations.

    Any sin has a root cause. If you find it, then you can work towards healing. Even if people don't remember, He can guide you towards healing. The Holy Spirit is faithful and His work is to guide you to Freedom and Healing.

    Please note I am not a professional, you can always seek counseling from professionals. What I told you is based on what I study independently but also revelation from the Lord. Hope it helps.

    Hugs! ❤️
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
  15. thomas15

    thomas15 Be Thou my vision Supporter

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    I think the opinions of God as expressed In the Bible have been covered here so I will not add to that.

    It is true that God has his ways and those ways should affect our personal behavior and our disobedience or sins are an issue that we must address. For the believer in Christ this is remedied by accepting his offer of salvation and forgiveness. The thing is that God has ordained several institutions and one of them is the family. One has to take an honest look at what this or any other popular movement is doing to the institution of the family and it is easy to see that it is not a positive influence.

    Everyone regardless of their orientation on these matters has heartache due to loss. As believers we are fortunate that we have Christ that loves us and will fill that void.
     
  16. Kris Jordan

    Kris Jordan Member

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    Hi DaughterOfChrist0,

    I appreciate your heart so much in wanting to please the Lord and wanting to know from Him whether homosexuality is sinful or not. He definitely gives us the answer in His Word.

    The Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is sinful, either as an act or a lifestyle, because it goes against God’s original plan, design and created order. Throughout Scripture, there is not one instance of God approving or even condoning a sexual act between two people of the same gender, or blessing a marriage between two people of the same gender. The only marital union God ever established and ordained was that which exists between one man and one woman; and the only sexual act He approves of and declares as blessed is that which takes place between a husband and his wife. These truths are declared consistently throughout Scripture, from the creation account, forward.


    When God created Adam, there was no suitable helper found for him until He created Eve. When He made Eve and brought her to Adam, He united that man and woman in marriage, blessed their union as husband and wife, and told them to be fruitful and multiply. The intricate and intentional design of their physical bodies alone testifies of God’s design and intention for marriage, sex and procreation.


    Perhaps the best illustration of God’s view of homosexuality can be found in His destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (which were filled with those committing these lustful acts). Had homosexuality truly been an “alternative lifestyle” approved by God, those cities would not have been destroyed. In fact, the Bible says that if there were only ten righteous people found in those cities, God would have spared them. However, the fact that God brought sudden destruction upon those cities establishes homosexuality as an unrighteous and ungodly act and lifestyle.


    The good news, however, is that the blood of Jesus was shed for all sin, including the sin of homosexuality. So when you repent of your sinful choices and turn your life fully over to Jesus to follow Him, you are forgiven and cleansed from all sin, according to 1 John 1:9-10.

    Here is the scriptural support you requested, broken down into sections (Homosexuality is Sin; Homosexuality Leads to a Depraved Mind; Marriage is Between One Man and One Woman)

    Homosexuality is Sin
    You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people. Therefore you shall keep My ordinance, so that you do not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that you do not defile yourselves by them: I am the Lord your God.
    Leviticus 18:22-30 (NKJV)

    If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
    Leviticus 20:13 (NKJV)

    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NASB)

    Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
    Romans 1:26-32 (NKJV)

    Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord. Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place. (Chapter 19) Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. And he said, “Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant’s house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” They said however, “No, but we shall spend the night in the square.” Yet he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; and they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.” But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, “Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly. Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof.” But they said, “Stand aside.” Furthermore, they said, “This one came in as an alien, and already he is acting like a judge; now we will treat you worse than them.” So they pressed hard against Lot and came near to break the door. But the men reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. They struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves trying to find the doorway. Then the two men said to Lot, “Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place; for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the Lord that the Lord has sent us to destroy it.” Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, and said, “Up, get out of this place, for the Lord will destroy the city.” But he appeared to his sons-in-law to be jesting. When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Up, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city.” But he hesitated. So the men seized his hand and the hand of his wife and the hands of his two daughters, for the compassion of the Lord was upon him; and they brought him out, and put him outside the city. When they had brought them outside, one said, “Escape for your life! Do not look behind you, and do not stay anywhere in the valley; escape to the mountains, or you will be swept away.” But Lot said to them, “Oh no, my lords! Now behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have magnified your lovingkindness, which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, for the disaster will overtake me and I will die; now behold, this town is near enough to flee to, and it is small. Please, let me escape there (is it not small?) that my life may be saved.” He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this request also, not to overthrow the town of which you have spoken. Hurry, escape there, for I cannot do anything until you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the town was called Zoar. The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar. Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the Lord; and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace. Thus it came about, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.
    Genesis 18:16-19:29 (NASB)

    While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, “Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him.” The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this outrageous thing.
    Judges 19:22-23 (NIV)


    Homosexuality Leads to a Depraved Mind
    And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
    Romans 1:28-32 (NKJV)

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
    Romans 1:18-21 (NKJV)

    Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
    Romans 1:22-25 (NKJV)

    Marriage is Between One Man and One Woman
    God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
    Genesis 1:27-28 (NASB)

    Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.
    Genesis 2:18-25 (NASB)

    And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
    Matthew 19:4-6 (NASB)

    But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
    Mark 10:5-9 (NASB)
     
  17. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    "Be Fruitful and Multiply" God defines Marriage as between a man and woman.

    There are Scriptures that condemns it as a sin. that simple.

    Also, the pro-gay books twist the scriptures by reading things into them that are not there.

    Sodom was destroyed for lack of hospitality and for practicing homosexuality.
     
  18. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Our family will lift him up in prayer that God draws him to Himself.
     
  19. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    Thank you for your kindness. :)
     
  20. Mark51

    Mark51 Newbie Supporter

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    The Bible does not make particular attention to homosexuals-as a group-to be ostracized or hated by Christians. Christians are to hate the conduct. Moreover, it does not teach that God will punish homosexuals any differently from anyone who practices fornication. Fornication is any sexual acts out side of the marriage arrangement between a man and a woman.

    The Scriptures offer no apologies, no concessions, or no ambiguity to fornication because they are all repulsive in God’s sight. Consequently, true Christians do not water down the Bible’s position on “disgraceful sexual appetites” merely to become more popular or more acceptable to modern cultures. Nor do they agree with any movement dedicated to the promotion of homosexuality-as well as any fornication-as a normal life-style.

    Jesus did not particularly address homosexuality; however, he did declare that God’s Word is truth. (John 17:17) That means that he endorsed God’s view of homosexuality.

    Compare: Genesis 18:20, 21; 19:5, 11; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:26, 27; 1 Corinthians 5:9-13; 6:9-11, 13, 18; Ephesians 5:3, 5; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; 1 Timothy 1:10; Jude 7.
     
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