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How to identify a Full Preterist in Partial Preterist clothing in this section of the board.

TribulationSigns

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So to me it's just obvious that Luke 17 is Jesus repeating what He had said before, on the Mount of Olives (when He gave the Olivet Discourse). He's speaking to His disciples again.

The context of Luke 17:20-37 is what?


It's The coming of the Kingdom:

20 Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed,
21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

To me, it's not surprising at all that we read straight afterward that Jesus then said to his disciples exactly what He said on the Mount of Olives about His coming.

When Christ spoke to his disciples, he spoke to the Church. In other words, he spoke to the Church through His disciples. His prophecies were not about 70AD. It is about the New Testament Congregation.
 
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parousia70

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I was not talking about you... I was referring to someone else here who I have talked to well before I ever talked to you.
SJ is talking about me @Jipsah ....

I assert that ALL Bible eschatology finds it's PRIMARY fulfillment in and around the events leading up to and including Jerusalem's 70 AD Desruction, yet typifies the future return, in much of the same way the ECF's understood the reality of 1st century eschatological fulfillment, yet STILL heald out for the future return, and codified this understanding of theirs in the Historic Creeds.

I adhere to the future creedal consummation, as per forum requirements. I do not adhere to the notion that there is ANY eschatological passage that does not find it's PRIMARY fulfillment in the 1st century, regardless if it can be applied typologically to the future coming or not.

I assert mine is THE consistent partial preterist position, and I'm nt alone in holding it.

Many noted, published PARTIAL preterist scholars hold this same view.
 
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Zao is life

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What some might object to is this. If one is going to argue, me in this case, that since Luke 17:31 is also recorded Matthew 24:17-18, therefore, the former proving the latter can't be meaning 70 AD, one then shouldn't be doing the exact opposite per the following then.

Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains----
23 But woe unto them that are with child---

Compared with.

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!


And then argue per these 2 accounts, that even though they too record the same things, the same events are not meant, though. IOW, where is the consistency in these arguments? How can Luke 21:21 and verse 23 and Matthew 24:16 and verse 19 record the same things, yet not be involving the same events? While the opposite is true per Luke 17:31 and Matthew 24:17-18. These too record the same events, except this time they must be involving the same events.

I get it, as to why one might object to arguing these things in this manner. Yet, Luke 17:31, if it is indeed referring to the same events recorded in Matthew 24:17-18, undeniably proves Matthew 24:17-18 can't be involving 70 AD. There is not one single thing recorded anywhere in Luke 17 that might give the impression the events involving 70 AD are meant.

What we basically end up with is this. If some of these interpreters that insist Matthew 24:15-21 is involving 70 AD, but then conclude that nothing recorded in Luke 17 is, they are doing the exact same thing they are complaining about me doing. They argue, even though Luke 17:31 records the same thing in Matthew 24:17-18, these are not referring to the same events. While I argue, even though Luke 21:21 and verse 23 and Matthew 24:16 and verse 19 record the same things, these are not referring to the same events. IOW, we are arguing in the same manner.

How then can these interpreters criticize the way I'm arguing that, when they are arguing in the exact same manner per Luke 17:31 and Matthew 24:17-18 that I am? IOW, why is it ok for them to argue in that manner, but it is not ok for me to do so? Trust me, I guarantee you that there are some interpreters out there who take Matthew 24:17-18 to be involving 70 AD but do not take Luke 17:31 to be involving 70 AD. Yet, these same interpreters find fault with how I'm arguing some of Luke 21 vs some of Matthew 24. Go figure.
I've been reading and finding a a few different chapters and passages in Luke where Luke records the same things recorded in The Temple Courtyard Discourse, which according to Matthew's gospel, Jesus gave on the same day that He gave the Olivet Discourse, just a short while before He came out of the temple courtyard and headed for the Mount of Olives:

Luke 11
47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
48 Truly you bear witness that you consent to the deeds of your fathers. For they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs.
49 Therefore the wisdom of God also said, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute,
50 so that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the temple. Truly I say to you, It shall be required of this generation.

Matthew 23
29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous,
30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Therefore you are witnesses to yourselves, that you are the sons of those who killed the prophets;

34 Therefore, behold, I send prophets and wise men and scribes to you. And you will kill and crucify some of them. And some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city;
35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Berachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.
36 Truly I say to you, All these things shall come on this generation.

Then there's also the others I mentioned in post #20 (Luke 21:12-15 cf Luke 12:11; Luke 13:34-35 cf Matthew 23:37-39) + the other things you already mentioned (and there may be yet more examples of this).

IMO, Matthew had everything in the chronological order in which they took place, but Luke did not. Although Luke did a good job overall with regard to chronology in his gospel, he simply did not know where some of Jesus' sayings and teachings fitted during the 3.5 years of His ministry. There are probably scholars who disagree with me on that, but anyway, they are not my teachers either.
 
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Zao is life

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When Christ spoke to his disciples, he spoke to the Church. In other words, he spoke to the Church through His disciples. His prophecies were not about 70AD. It is about the New Testament Congregation.
There was a New Testament congregation alive in 70 A.D too.
 
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Zao is life

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SJ is talking about me @Jipsah ....

I assert that ALL Bible eschatology finds it's PRIMARY fulfillment in and around the events leading up to and including Jerusalem's 70 AD Desruction
I assert that ALL Bible eschatology finds its PRIMARY fulfillment in and around Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, and the giving of the Holy Spirit in power on the day of Pentecost, and in and around Jesus' return.
 
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parousia70

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I assert that ALL Bible eschatology finds its PRIMARY fulfillment in and around Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, and the giving of the Holy Spirit in power on the day of Pentecost, and in and around Jesus' return.
Interesting. Can you provide an example or two of a specific eschatological prophesy that you believe was Fulfilled between Jesus Crucifixion and Pentecost? I suppose The passage from Joel that Peter quoted would qualify, which is why I maintain ALL Christians are preterist to some degree.
 
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Zao is life

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Interesting. Can you provide an example or two of a specific eschatological prophesy that you believe was Fulfilled between Jesus Crucifixion and Pentecost? I suppose The passage from Joel that Peter quoted would qualify, which is why I maintain ALL Christians are preterist to some degree.
How about Jesus' resurrection from the dead which He prophesied about Himself before His crucifixion?
 
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parousia70

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How about Jesus' resurrection from the dead which He prophesied about Himself before His crucifixion?
Sure, I'm fine with assigning prophsies of Jesus' Resurrection to the category of eschatology, though it's not a very popular position. It does, however, again, render ALL Christians Preterist by necessity.
 
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David Kent

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Seriously, does verse 33, for example, even remotely give the impression that verse 31 might be involving 70 AD? Imagine applying verse 33 to unbelieving Jews in the first century when everyone should already know via other Scriptures how this was being applied by Jesus in the past and to whom it was being addressed.

Firstly, Jesus was not speaking to unconverted Jews, but to converted Jews.It was them that had to flee the city when they saw the Roman armies
Secondly, Jesus did address the unconverted Jews on the subject. He didn't tell them to flee. The judgement was coming on them.
Matthew 23:38-39.Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

I suggest that you read the whole chapter carefully. After the crucifixion the next time the Jews would see him would be at his return. Likewise the Matthew 24:30-31.
 
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