How to go to war

[Skeptic90]

"All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Göring, 2nd-in-command, Nazi Germany

Full quote from Nuremberg Diary by Gustave Gilbert:
Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: "There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare war."
Göring: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

Discuss.

Related quote:
"Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear -- kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor -- with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it by furnishing the exorbitant funds demanded. Yet, in retrospect, these disasters seem never to have happened, seem never to have been quite real. "
-- General Douglas MacArthur

 

[Schneiderman]

Turns out it doesn't just work for war either, it's pretty effective as a general political strategy and both parties have demonstrated its power.

Replace "attacked" with "harmed" and there you have the legislative process.

 

[Wirraway]

I think its funny that anyone would believe Goering could give a competent opinion on the political process in a democratic state.

 

[Panzerkamfwagen]

I think you godwinned your thread from the first line.

 

[ArnautDaniel]

I think its funny that anyone would believe Goering could give a competent opinion on the political process in a democratic state.

The problem exists for all states.

Ultimately you can't do anything if you can't convince enough people to go along with it.

it doesn't matter if you are Stalin, or Clinton, you have to persuade the people there is something real to react to.

So, yes, Goering is discussing a real issue that democratic states deal with.

Modern propaganda is rather more refined than it was in Goering's day however...

...or sometimes not, as in Bush's evidence for Iraq's WMDs being perhaps a mushroom cloud....

 

[Wirraway]

The problem exists for all states.

Ultimately you can't do anything if you can't convince enough people to go along with it.

it doesn't matter if you are Stalin, or Clinton, you have to persuade the people there is something real to react to.

So, yes, Goering is discussing a real issue that democratic states deal with.

Modern propaganda is rather more refined than it was in Goering's day however...

...or sometimes not, as in Bush's evidence for Iraq's WMDs being perhaps a mushroom cloud....

(emphasis added)

you hardly need Goering to explain that.

I suggest that Goering is used to add a false authority to this platitude, as well as the usual Reductio ad Hitlerum nonsense.

 

[Skeptic90]

I think you godwinned your thread from the first line.

It is clear that history repeats itself. I am just saying that it is interesting how we go to war. I can't remember a war when this wasn't used.

Whenever a war starts, there is wave of patriotism. Just look at our current war and how it started. What images were there at the beginning?

There was patriotic songs released, american flags sold like hot bread, donations, everyone came together. At the same time there was anger. This idea that we will kill every single of the bad guys, and teach them a lesson. We felt invinsible. Take this scenerio to any other war that has been fought.

Its just interesting how it works.

 

[Wirraway]

It is clear that history repeats itself. I am just saying that it is interesting how we go to war. I can't remember a war when this wasn't used. ....

how many wars do you remember?

 

[oldbetang]

The Peneloplesian War
The Trojan War
The War of the Roses
The War of the Five Kings
The War of the Ring
The Galactic Civil War
The Clone Wars
The Looking Glass War
World Wars I-III
The Blights I-V
The Darkspawn Civil War
The Bulterian Jihad
The War Aganst the Machines
The Jedi Civil War
The Mandalorian War
The Colder War
The Dance of Dragons
Judgement Day
The Seven Hour War

Ahem...The War of Jenkins' Ear. How could you miss that one?

 

[Umaro]

Ahem...The War of Jenkins' Ear. How could you miss that one?

Don't forget the War of 1812 either, where Canada beat us back to our capital and burned down the White House.

 

[mont974x4]

JOhnson County War

 

[oldbetang]

Don't forget the War of 1812 either, where Canada beat us back to our capital and burned down the White House.

The White House was burned but I don't believe that it was totally destroyed.

 

[oldbetang]

The Hatfields and McCoys!

 

[oldbetang]

Don't forget the War of 1812 either, where Canada beat us back to our capital and burned down the White House.

I almost forgot. Canada never beat back anybody in 1812-1814.

 

[mont974x4]

Batman and Joker
the Burger King and Ronald McD
Ronald McD and Hamburgler
Hulkster and Rowdy Piper
Fred Flinstone and that jerk carhop who tipped his car over with oversized ribs

 

[Verv]

""All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Göring, 2nd-in-command, Nazi Germany"

Haha, and the left wings playbook:

"All you have to do is say you are doing it for equality and denounce anybody as a Nazi who disagrees with you. It works the same in every country."

Two can play at this game, and that is what you are exactly doing:

Implying that we are somehow Nazis. You are somehow righteous. We are all closet fascists for supporting a war, and you are all enlightened.

Some wars are necessary. Some fears are real.

Consider that.

 

[Skeptic90]

""All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Göring, 2nd-in-command, Nazi Germany"

Haha, and the left wings playbook:

"All you have to do is say you are doing it for equality and denounce anybody as a Nazi who disagrees with you. It works the same in every country."

Two can play at this game, and that is what you are exactly doing:

Implying that we are somehow Nazis. You are somehow righteous. We are all closet fascists for supporting a war, and you are all enlightened.

Some wars are necessary. Some fears are real.

Consider that.

I used to republican when the war started. If I was implying that, I would be calling myself a nazi. During WW2 both germany and the U.S had this feeling, its not exclusive to just nazis. We all had this feeling.

But know that we hold the knowledge, we can better prepare ourselves to not fall into the same situation. Respond instead of react. I understand when one is angry, or in rage, one's emotions can take over and make us do horrible, inhumane things. Same thing happened in the Iraq conflict.

Yes some wars are necessary, and fears are real, but the fears are over hyped. That is what he was saying.

 

[Wirraway]

Goering's supposed words are quoted by Gustave M. Gilbert, but were published years after they were supposedly said, and appear nowhere else.

the false claim and strange title that Goering was "2d-in-command, Nazi Germany" doesn't lend a lot of credibility either. Hess was Deputy Führer, at the time of hitler's suicide, Martin Bormann was Hess's successor in a renamed office; Karl Dönitz followed him as head of state (as president); Goebbels as Reich Chancellor.

 

[Verv]

Would you agree, then, that one of the bad things about the Left is that they equally use such simple things to get people to do exactly what they want them to do?

 

[Verv]

Stop. Stop right there. This is not a matter of right versus left. This is a matter of the historic use of patriotism as a weapon of the state. FDR did it, Bush did it, all political leaders have done it. The fact you equate every discussion into left versus right says a lot about the sorry state of modern politics.

Fine. I will stop there.

But later we will make a thread that is critical of one aspect of the left wing, and then I will expect you to "stop right there."

And I have a feeling that you will be content in doing this.

And that is a really great feeling for me, to have, to feel that you have intellectual integrity.

We are making progress because you and I together are coming to the proper conclusions.

We should form our own political party -- not necessarily along the lines of "we all agree with each other," but rather, "we have agree'd to abolish left and right as a concept."

What do you think of that?

A party made only to break down barriers.