How to explain to Armenians

[ohgin]

Let say that an armenian tells you to expalain to him logically how is it possible that we got chosen by God. How will you explain to him?

 

[Jon_]

Let say that an armenian tells you to expalain to him logically how is it possible that we got chosen by God. How will you explain to him?

Well, in order to explain it to an Armenian, I would first have to learn how to speak Armenian. On the other hand, an Arminian probably wouldn't understand it in any language.

I would explain election to him by quickly going through the ordo salutis and would then transition into refuting his hundreds of hackneyed objections.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Imblessed]

Well, in order to explain it to an Armenian, I would first have to learn how to speak Armenian. On the other hand, an Arminian probably wouldn't understand it in any language.

I would explain election to him by quickly going through the ordo salutis and would then transition into refuting his hundreds of hackneyed objections.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JJB]

I gotta ask, what is "ordo salutis"?

 

[frumanchu]

I gotta ask, what is "ordo salutis"?

Ordo salutis is the "order of salvation." There is a pretty good explanation here

[font=Book Antiqua, Verdana]In the Reformed camp[/font][font=Book Antiqua, Verdana], the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30) [/font]





[font=Book Antiqua, Verdana]In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.[/font]



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[JJB]

thank you, frumanchu.

 

[jbarcher]

Let say that an armenian tells you to expalain to him logically how is it possible that we got chosen by God. How will you explain to him?

Simple. In God's creating of the universe, he so providentially ordered it such that it would bring about the salvation of the elect.

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Run that by the Reformed folk here. I'm partial to Molinism.

 

[edie19]

Ordo salutis is the "order of salvation." There is a pretty good explanation here

[font=Book Antiqua, Verdana]In the Reformed camp[/font][font=Book Antiqua, Verdana], the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30) [/font]

[font=Book Antiqua, Verdana]In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.[/font]
​

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I'm not trying to be difficult here, but I'd never heard that term either. And when I see you spell it out - I see the differences but a question comes to mind. Those of the Arminian mindset don't recognize sanctification???? Or, do they include that in something else, for example justification. I have heard people say justification is a process as opposed to a single act.

edie
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[Bulldog]

Well, in order to explain it to an Armenian, I would first have to learn how to speak Armenian.

'Beat me to it. But...

Eastern or Western Armenian?

 

[frumanchu]

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but I'd never heard that term either. And when I see you spell it out - I see the differences but a question comes to mind. Those of the Arminian mindset don't recognize sanctification???? Or, do they include that in something else, for example justification. I have heard people say justification is a process as opposed to a single act.​

In the comparison, sanctification is replaced with perseverance. The difference lies in the fact that the Reformed historically believe that once justified the believer then engages in the synergistic process of their sanctification, whereby they can grieve the Spirit and even fall into grievous sin for a season but will never totally or finally fall away. Arminianism historically believes that once a believer is justified the engage in the synergistic process of their sanctification, but can at any time fall fully and finally away from the faith and ultimately perish in unbelief. Arminius himself left the issue of perseverance open to further examination, but the vast majority of his theological descendents have maintained that one can have true saving faith and then fall away and end up in hell.

Hope that clarifies ​

 

[edie19]

In the comparison, sanctification is replaced with perseverance. The difference lies in the fact that the Reformed historically believe that once justified the believer then engages in the synergistic process of their sanctification, whereby they can grieve the Spirit and even fall into grievous sin for a season but will never totally or finally fall away. Arminianism historically believes that once a believer is justified the engage in the synergistic process of their sanctification, but can at any time fall fully and finally away from the faith and ultimately perish in unbelief. Arminius himself left the issue of perseverance open to further examination, but the vast majority of his theological descendents have maintained that one can have true saving faith and then fall away and end up in hell.

Hope that clarifies [/left]

It absolutely does - and as one who has grieved the Spirit for a season (or two, maybe three) I'm glad to know that God kept His grip the entire time and never let me fall away.

Thanks for the explanation.

edie

 

[cygnusx1]

On the other hand, an Arminian probably wouldn't understand it in any language.

you know them so well brother ............

 

[Erinwilcox]

Well, I know that many Arminians do not want to hear the truth. Someone that I love dearly, who was/is an Arminian, when confronted with Calvinism (i.e. election), exclaimed, "Well, I wouldn't want to serve a God like that!" Unless the Holy Spirit is doing a work in the Arminian that you are trying to explain it to, they are going to reject in no matter how clearly, logically, or basically you present it.

 

[lmnop9876]

Well, I know that many Arminians do not want to hear the truth. Someone that I love dearly, who was/is an Arminian, when confronted with Calvinism (i.e. election), exclaimed, "Well, I wouldn't want to serve a God like that!" Unless the Holy Spirit is doing a work in the Arminian that you are trying to explain it to, they are going to reject in no matter how clearly, logically, or basically you present it.

when I first saw this thread I thought it was about Armenian Orthodox, and it was about explaining the true doctrine of the incarnation to them (i.e. two distinct natures in one Person forever).
well, if you refer to it as 'Calvinism,' and them as 'Arminians', a lot of non-Reformed Christians will not listen to anything you say. they say, "I'm not Armenian, and I follow Christ, not a strict, grouchy theologian/lawyer from Geneva."
however, a lot of them will listen if you explain it in terms of man's utter inability (or desire) to do anything to please God, and God's choosing to save us in His own sovereign grace.
but, you are right, it's only by the Holy Spirit working in them that they will be willing to look into what the Scriptural truth is. then, they will see that it is actually a reason to give praise to God, that He has chosen them, not because of anything in them. the reason He chose us and did not choose others is not for us to look into, we should simply praise Him and thank Him that He chose us. the purpose of the doctrine of election is that we should, as St. Peter says, make our 'calling and election sure.' it should be taught as a comfort (i.e. God has chosen you in Christ from before the foundation of the world, and will continue to preserve you in your faith by His grace,)
not to show us how cruel and angry God is (i.e. God deliberately damned people to Hell,)
or to promote laziness in our Christian life (i.e. if you're one of God's chosen, you'll be saved anyway, so why bother working out your salvation [as some non-Reformed people seem to accuse those who teach salvation by God's sovereign grace alone of teaching.])

 

[edie19]

well, if you refer to it as 'Calvinism,' and them as 'Arminians', a lot of non-Reformed Christians will not listen to anything you say. they say, "I'm not Armenian, and I follow Christ, not a strict, grouchy theologian/lawyer from Geneva."

As I've said before, I generally use the term Reformed when referring to myself, rarely use Calvinist. While I've used Arminian here on occasion or in private conversation with a few friends - I don't ever call someone Arminian to their face. That just seems to get their hackles up - and I don't blame them.

edie

 

[lmnop9876]

As I've said before, I generally use the term Reformed when referring to myself, rarely use Calvinist. While I've used Arminian here on occasion or in private conversation with a few friends - I don't ever call someone Arminian to their face. That just seems to get their hackles up - and I don't blame them.

yeah, my dad was telling the story once of how he said to a man, "Why are you an Arminian?" or something to that effect. the man said, "I'm not Armenian, I'm an Australian." when dad explained Reformed teaching, he was like, yeah, i agree with that. he just didn't understand the labels and tags that are applied to these things.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I grew up as Arminian and I am slowly converting to 100% Calvinist. The best way is this.... avoid the topic of Arminian and Calvinism. Just focus in seperate issues such as election, predestination, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification. I have learned alot while "studying" the book of Romans.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I was a solid Arminian until a couple years ago. I'd say to challenge their view of the sovereignty of God. I was guilty of saying that God couldn't (fill in the blank) until I was challenged. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God who parted the Red Sea, the God who is enthroned in Heaven is able to do whatever He pleases.

Most Arminian teaching takes a very man-centered approach to salvation. But the Bible says that "In the beginning... GOD" We need to be open and offer answers to the questions that come up. Many come up in this very forum, as well as the general apologetics. I am not a firm believer in a setting that pits one Christian against the other, for when one person takes the offensive position, the other instinctively takes a defensive position.

Also, when an Arminian begins to accept the Biblical-ness of Calvinism, they can be very angry. I felt betrayed by everyone who ever held any sort of leadership role in the churches I grew up in for not telling me about this. I judged them and began to get very heady, believing I was better than them. Honestly, I should have been thrown into a cage until I got over it.

This is one of those dicipleship times. We need to be gentle and loving with these people, showing them the love within the doctrines of grace. We need to correct them, and remind them to remain humble through the process. We need to forgive them in advance, for I can't think of anyone I have ever discussed this matter with who didn't get abusive. All of this requires prayer, that the Holy Spirit would reveal the love of God to them and that He would give us a serving heart to withstand the emotion.

Anyway, that's my short answer...

 

[Erinwilcox]

Uh, just let me clarify really quickly here. I don't use the term Arminian when I'm talking to Arminians. . .only when I'm talking to Calvinists about Arminians and/or their beliefs. It just makes things easier to understand.

 

[Jon_]

I've come to see the term "Arminian" as an invective. So, watch out. If you make me mad enough, you just might have me leveling charges of works-salvation at you!

Heh, in all seriousness, I don't call people "Arminians" because they usually don't know what it means. The carnal mind is naturally Arminian, so when discussing the doctrines of grace, you're usually talking to an ignorant Christian who knows very little theology, much less the distinction between Arminian and Calvinist (although, somehow they always seem to know that Calvinists are mean-spirited fundamentalists who eat children... hmm...).

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon