How to deal with unbiblical church service?

[wmreese]

I recently decided to visit a church after a very long time of not attending.
This church is attended by some very close friends and I am very upset at what I saw take place and I need some advice about how to confront the issue with my friends and maybe the pastor of this church.

I have been born again since 1979 and have never seen such a fiasco as this.
It started out pretty innocuous but after a time of worship it quickly went down hill from there. This is a fairly new church and this was the first day in their first permanent building on this particular Sunday.

The whole service was about how the ministry mission was about a healing ministry. The pastor used Amiee Semple McPherson as an example as to how the church has inherited the healing "gift" of this questionable lady. Evidently, the lady visited the church building in the early 1900s and "anointed" the church by laying hands on the walls, door posts and seats. The pastor went on to call on her spirit for a blessing and had all present lay hands on the building.
The service was also a free-for-all that had people speaking in tongues without interpretation as well as others prophesying that was totally inappropriate. One of those prophesying asked the pastor if he could give a word to the church about how he thought the Lord was "telling" him that everyone in the building that day would have the gift of healing. This was all in ignoring very plain scripture on the subjects.
The church is also "attached at the hip" with the word of faith movement. Specifically, Bethel in Redding, CA

My question is how do I approach my friends and possibly the pastor of this?

Thank you
Bill

 

[bushinoki]

To start with, go to the book of 1 Samuel, specifically the part where Saul seeks the Diviner's counsel, then point out to your friends the three chapters of 1 Corinthians dealing with Spiritual Gifts.

 

[CGL1023]

I recently decided to visit a church after a very long time of not attending.
This church is attended by some very close friends and I am very upset at what I saw take place and I need some advice about how to confront the issue with my friends and maybe the pastor of this church.

I have been born again since 1979 and have never seen such a fiasco as this.
It started out pretty innocuous but after a time of worship it quickly went down hill from there. This is a fairly new church and this was the first day in their first permanent building on this particular Sunday.

The whole service was about how the ministry mission was about a healing ministry. The pastor used Amiee Semple McPherson as an example as to how the church has inherited the healing "gift" of this questionable lady. Evidently, the lady visited the church building in the early 1900s and "anointed" the church by laying hands on the walls, door posts and seats. The pastor went on to call on her spirit for a blessing and had all present lay hands on the building.
The service was also a free-for-all that had people speaking in tongues without interpretation as well as others prophesying that was totally inappropriate. One of those prophesying asked the pastor if he could give a word to the church about how he thought the Lord was "telling" him that everyone in the building that day would have the gift of healing. This was all in ignoring very plain scripture on the subjects.
The church is also "attached at the hip" with the word of faith movement. Specifically, Bethel in Redding, CA

My question is how do I approach my friends and possibly the pastor of this?

Thank you
Bill

I think a better use of your time would be to start house church with like-minded individuals. Established leaders have thought thru their manner of service and have fine tuned it to deliver exactly what they want. When a church has 'growth at all costs', as an objective, It means that the hard messages are not being preached and nobody is being offended.

 

[wmreese]

Yes, house church is an often prayer and thought of mine for a long time. I do however need to discuss the service with my friends.
thanks

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"My question is how do I approach my friends and possibly the pastor of this?"

#1 - you obviously don't know WHAT to do, so don't DO anything until you DO know what to do. The only one that will tell you that YOU'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING NOW!!!! is satan. He LOVES confusion.

Whether "Everybody will have the gift of healing" will be unmistakably demonstrated quickly, when folks AREN'T healed, and the church begins to ask "why", then it might be the time to share.

It doesn't appear that the "pastor" is very grounded in the Word, and under those circumstances, you in all likelyhood can't tell him ANYTHING - yet. HE'll probably have to run into some brick walls first.

#2 - seek wisdom. NOT HERE, but from the Holy Spirit who says that He WILL give wisdom - if you seek it single mindedly.

#3 - Remember that the Corinthian church was an absolute MESS in 1 Cor. But that the ONLY CHURCH that Paul DIDN'T thank God for - were the Galatians - who were trying their best to keep God's law.

#4 - IF your "close friends" ask you about what you think, then tell them HONESTLY, and HUMBLY what your OPINION is, and let the chips fall where they may.

I was once asked how you could keep people OUT of error when they wouldn't search the word for themselves. My Answer is still the same:
YOU CAN'T!!!
But you can be around to pick up the pieces.

The combination of "Popular TOXIC WoF" and the "Healing Ministry" KILLS people when they try to exercise FAITH that they don't really have..

 

[Biblicist]

I recently decided to visit a church after a very long time of not attending...

There's probably not much that you can really do other than to avoid going back. I suspect that the particular 'minister' in question has walked a long road with that particular path so he would probably wouldn't be open to any correction.

As for your friends, I guess all that you can do is to politely express your concerns and find somewhere else to fellowship. From what you are saying , this particular congregation seems pretty odd.

 

[Gospel Guy]

I recently decided to visit a church after a very long time of not attending

First off... you should quit being a backslider and pay attention to your own life by not forsaking the gathering of yourself with other Christians as the Word teaches. You should focus on finding the church the Lord has called you to be a part of. Apparently, this one is not the church for you.

The church is also "attached at the hip" with the word of faith movement

Sounds like this church is rather freaky if calling some dead preacher lady's spirit... but just so you know, word of faith is not a movement. It is taught by both Jesus and Paul.

Yes, there have been those that take biblical truths and mis-use it for carnal purposes but that does not mean you should not explore what word of faith is in scripture and find a balanced approach to this. After all, you used word of faith to get born-again so don't attack it to hard or you'll be in the ditch.

My question is how do I approach my friends and possibly the pastor of this?

You might have a mature discussion with your friends about it if you can do it without getting in to strife. But, you have no standing to talk to the pastor about it since you don't belong to this church and the pastor does not work for you... he claims the name of Jesus, so this is more like the Lord's issue to deal with.

The mature thing to do is intercede for them when/if the lord brings this church to your mind and otherwise cast your care upon the Lord.

It sounds like you have bigger fish to fry if you do not have a home church. Maybe you do and just didn't mention it. It sounded like you were saying you had not been to church in a long time.

 

[parsley]

go to the book of 1 Samuel, specifically the part where Saul seeks the Diviner's counsel

Good idea -- they don't seem to notice that calling on a deceased spirit is no different from what Saul did.

I think there is a reason that you went, and even if there wasn't, God can use everything and everyone. Also, we are responsible with what we are given, and you were given this glimpse into your friends' spiritual oversight.

God loves His people. He would want prayer for correction at any time that believers go astray. Verbal correction is not always taken well, but you might find yourself an opportunity to express one or two of the concerns -- not all.

The way people speak in tongues, I consider that more of a church preference, even though Paul had advice to limit it to interpreted tongues. You can see in the OT that groups "were prophesying," which seems a similar gathering of Spirit-led or intuitive expression. The first instance of group tongues did not have controls placed on it, so I think the advice was more for practicality.

Knowing how to discern spirits, though, is critical for the life of their church. If they are willfully calling on a deceased human -- possibly based on the advice of other churches or authors -- then they are inviting supernatural trouble.

Most leaders do not take well to being corrected, especially from outsiders. So I think your comments would be better accepted by your friends. Don't insult their church. Point out the strengths, and then get to your point on necromancy.

A similar thing happened in a Florida conference several years ago, and it endured long debates here at CF -- you might want to dig those up. (Or would that be literal necromancy.) In that instance, people were routinely calling on a specific angel named "Emma" to bring healing.

The other topics are too debatable to bring up. Jesus' ministry centered around healing and training up believers to heal, so it is not worth arguing that some are not meant to heal. The prophecy might have been misworded, but also might have been understood by the people as freeing them to take a firmer stand.

Remember how powerful prayer is. You will be tempted to think that your voice and actions can work more powerfully and directly than your prayers, but the way people take offense so easily, they would much more readily hear it from God. Pray that they do.

 

[Gospel Guy]

Good idea -- they don't seem to notice that calling on a deceased spirit is no different from what Saul did.

Exactly. Nowhere in scripture does God ever tells us to call upon anyone that has passed from this physical life we live in because they are "dead" in the since that they have been removed from the world in which we are still living in. To do so is to open one's self up to familiar spirits which are devils that are familiar enough with details of the person being called on to provide information to make one think this person is answering back which further opens the door to the devil deceiving those calling on this person.

It's the deception that is so dangerous because you are getting your information from a source that is not God's Word which always seeks to lead people away from God which can easily cost you your salvation when you start getting in to unbelief which blinds the mind which is what satan does to those that don't believe.

In the OT the bible also speaks of not giving "ought for the dead" which is referring to giving honor and attention to... cause here again, it open the door to the devil to blind one's mind with false information although in most cases he will start of with something true about the person being called on that has passed from this live to lure you in.

This is what many new agers and witches do as they are servants of satan and see no problem with it, but there is a price to be paid anytime the door is opened to the devil.

 

[parsley]

the bible also speaks of not giving "ought for the dead" which is referring to giving honor and attention to

Ah- I haven't heard it applied that way but it certainly makes sense.

The pastor used Amiee Semple McPherson as an example as to how the church has inherited the healing "gift" of this questionable lady. Evidently, the lady visited the church building in the early 1900s and "anointed" the church by laying hands on the walls, door posts and seats. The pastor went on to call on her spirit for a blessing and had all present lay hands on the building.

A few things here you (OP) could mention. Jesus told His disciples to heal, without this mystical/methodical transference of power.

Some Christian groups use the Elijah/Elisha mantle story as evidence for passing along anointing and authority. But in the OT authority was assigned, and anointing was poured on in the form of oil.

This mantle-passing doctrine gets applied as an hierarchical structure, putting believers ready to serve in a holding pattern, until the proper person approves of them to serve. (I've seen this happen often, but don't know if it's happening at that church.) That is SO against what Jesus taught.

Jesus promised He would send the Holy Spirit for this, and He did. The work was done and provided for thousands of years ago, so we do not need to rely on new methods. We do not need to wait for a spiritual leader to send us out. Jesus already sent us out. His authority is sufficient, more than sufficient.

Touching the building? Touching the building? God's power comes from stones?

Revelation 9:20
The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.

Ezekiel 20:32
What comes into your mind will not come about, when you say: `We will be like the nations, like the tribes of the lands, serving wood and stone.'

Daniel 5:23
but you have exalted yourself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of His house before you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines have been drinking wine from them; and you have praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which do not see, hear or understand. But the God in whose hand are your life-breath and all your ways, you have not glorified.

Habakkuk 2:19
Woe to him who says to a piece of wood, `Awake!' To a mute stone, `Arise!' And that is your teacher? Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, And there is no breath at all inside it.
​

Sure, they will say that this is different -- they are not worshiping idol carvings or spirit goddesses. Or are they?

And they will say "It helps to have a point of contact." But does it-- is that the way God needs to work?

 

[Gospel Guy]

Jesus told His disciples to heal, without this mystical/methodical transference of power

When He said "lay hands on the sick and they shall recover"... that is the transference of God power (anointing) to the sick person.

Jesus did this Himself and he was not practicing magic or any such nonsense... today, the devil's people do this in new age and in witchcraft as he emulates what God does, cause there's no truth in him which means all he can do is emulate what God does without God of course.

Jesus Christ laid hands on the sick and directly commanded His followers to do the same (see Mark 16:15-18)... but He did say "those that believe" and I understand there are some who claim to be Christians but don't actually believe what Jesus says and instead opt to believe and follow what their denomination says.

Religious minded people who do not believe what Jesus Christ taught (cessationist), enjoy claiming this to be some sort of new age or witchcraft practice... are you suggesting that Jesus Christ practiced new age or witchcraft?

 

[Andrea411]

I recently decided to visit a church after a very long time of not attending.
This church is attended by some very close friends and I am very upset at what I saw take place and I need some advice about how to confront the issue with my friends and maybe the pastor of this church.

I have been born again since 1979 and have never seen such a fiasco as this.
It started out pretty innocuous but after a time of worship it quickly went down hill from there. This is a fairly new church and this was the first day in their first permanent building on this particular Sunday.

The whole service was about how the ministry mission was about a healing ministry. The pastor used Amiee Semple McPherson as an example as to how the church has inherited the healing "gift" of this questionable lady. Evidently, the lady visited the church building in the early 1900s and "anointed" the church by laying hands on the walls, door posts and seats. The pastor went on to call on her spirit for a blessing and had all present lay hands on the building.
The service was also a free-for-all that had people speaking in tongues without interpretation as well as others prophesying that was totally inappropriate. One of those prophesying asked the pastor if he could give a word to the church about how he thought the Lord was "telling" him that everyone in the building that day would have the gift of healing. This was all in ignoring very plain scripture on the subjects.
The church is also "attached at the hip" with the word of faith movement. Specifically, Bethel in Redding, CA

My question is how do I approach my friends and possibly the pastor of this?

Thank you
Bill

I am a believer that we have the right to be wrong and what is done with a clear conscience is received with grace, to whom it is sin then it is already but to whom it is not ??? But you might want to tell them why you had a problem respectfully... and here are some scriptures to that point:

Deut 12:29-32
29 "When the Lord your God cuts off before you the nations which you are going in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 beware that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?' 31 "You shall not behave thus toward the Lord your God, for every abominable act which the Lord hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
32 "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.
NASU
Actually, God had prohibited mediums or spiritists in the book of Leviticus.
Lev 19:31 'Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God. NASU
(NASB footnote alternate translation: Do not turn to ghosts or spirits).
An alternate translation of the same verse is given in the NET Bible:
Lev 19:31 Do not turn to the spirits of the dead and do not seek familiar spirits to become unclean by them. I am the Lord your God. NET
(NET footnote: The prohibition here concerns those who would seek special knowledge through the spirits of the dead, whether the dead in general or dead relatives in particular)
Again:
Lev 20:6 'As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people. NASU
(NASB footnote alternate translation: Do not turn to ghosts or spirits).
Lev 20:6 “‘The person who turns to the spirits of the dead and familiar spirits to commit prostitution by going after them, I will set my face against that person and cut him off from the midst of his people. NET
Much later, the prophet Isaiah warned Israel that these practices were still wrong in the sight of God.
Isa 8:19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people enquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? NIV
Commenting on the passage in Deuteronomy, David Guzik defines some terms:
Medium: The idea is of someone who "stands between" the physical world and the psychic world; they channel knowledge from the psychic world into the physical world.
Necromancy: the conjuring up or contacting of the dead. Necromancer :One who investigates, looks into, and seeks information from the dead.


just a thought....
God bless, andrea

 

[GrapeGirl]

Why would you WANT to confront them , and go back if they are teaching wrong things??? Shouldn't you just find a church that is teaching the BIBLE? Call me crazy, but if something wasn't right in a church, and I knew it wasn't right, I wouldn't continue to put myself under that teaching.... IJS.

 

[JGiddings]

Honestly I wouldn't do anything. Don't start strife with your friends. Intelligent conversation about what you witnessed with them is a good thing to do. We all do that about various things.
It's really not your place to do anything about it directly. This pastor is not your pastor. The church does what it does and everyone I assume seemed content with what you saw.
I would just find a church that the Holy Spirit calls you to.
Always pray to God about anything troubling your heart.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[psalm232]

I strongly disagree that staying home from church is backsliding.

It's a season that many are called to...especially these days.

Bethel is a demonic counterfeit and as such would leave ASAP. Test the spirits...If there is a spiritual mixture...you don't want to be a part of that. (Great you tube vid by Andrew Strom on the topic that's called Kundalini warning)

 

[psalm232]

When I have had a check in my spirit about spiritual mixtures, or oppression in an assembly I have never regretted leaving. I personally don't usually confront...that went feeling poorly once. I'll quietly leave and stay away.

I was in a church that received a false holy spirit. This experience included many LYING signs and wonders ...and many wrecked lives. 5 people I knew literally died in a 6 year period. I've never seen anything like that before or since. I know a woman whose child died. She had received an unclean anointing...This stuff is extremely dangerous and toxic. It is actually worshiping a false god.

If the Lord is lifting you up to speak a word of correction or simply to answer the questions about why you're leaving...simply answer them when someone asks...or if there is an open door. Hopefully that one witness of truth will help another recognize the mixture and also flee.

 

[psalm232]

Some background...I'm not a cessationist at all...I'm Spirit filled!
However we need to discern and test the spirits...this is a caution from the enemy coming in "as an angel of light."

Derek prince writes about this in "Protection from Deception"
as does Jesse Penn Lewis in "War on the Saints."

 

[now faith]

I recently decided to visit a church after a very long time of not attending.
This church is attended by some very close friends and I am very upset at what I saw take place and I need some advice about how to confront the issue with my friends and maybe the pastor of this church.

I have been born again since 1979 and have never seen such a fiasco as this.
It started out pretty innocuous but after a time of worship it quickly went down hill from there. This is a fairly new church and this was the first day in their first permanent building on this particular Sunday.

The whole service was about how the ministry mission was about a healing ministry. The pastor used Amiee Semple McPherson as an example as to how the church has inherited the healing "gift" of this questionable lady. Evidently, the lady visited the church building in the early 1900s and "anointed" the church by laying hands on the walls, door posts and seats. The pastor went on to call on her spirit for a blessing and had all present lay hands on the building.
The service was also a free-for-all that had people speaking in tongues without interpretation as well as others prophesying that was totally inappropriate. One of those prophesying asked the pastor if he could give a word to the church about how he thought the Lord was "telling" him that everyone in the building that day would have the gift of healing. This was all in ignoring very plain scripture on the subjects.
The church is also "attached at the hip" with the word of faith movement. Specifically, Bethel in Redding, CA

My question is how do I approach my friends and possibly the pastor of this?

Thank you
Bill

That is offensive to say about WOF.
Did that church say or have a W.OF sign if so I want the name.
Calling on spirits is demonic,so are slanderous comments
They are not WOF even if they say they are we do not teach these things in mainstream WOF.

Do you think all Baptist are like Westborugh ?

Are all charisma churches part of new age spiritually?

Why do people have to get in digs at others even when no debate is going on.

Have you considered your drawn to such a church?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

That is offensive to say about WOF.
Did that church say or have a W.OF sign if so I want the name.
Calling on spirits is demonic,so are slanderous comments
They are not WOF even if they say they are we do not teach these things in mainstream WOF.

Do you think all Baptist are like Westborugh ?

Are all charisma churches part of new age spiritually?

Why do people have to get in digs at others even when no debate is going on.

Have you considered your drawn to such a church?

Benny Hinn visits Amiee Semple McPherson's grave and others. this is a direct quote.

Benny Hinn Quote:

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. ... I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. ... And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”

~ Benny Hinn, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309

I think your argument is rather shallow. Name it and claim it, there your peoples.

 

[parsley]

When He said "lay hands on the sick and they shall recover"... that is the transference of God power (anointing) to the sick person

Sorry to not respond last fall -- what I was referring to was the transference of power from a spirit to the person offering to pray for healing (then to the sick one). Whether that happens supernaturally or not in God-ordained healings is apparently not our business, bc God has not asked us to call on anything other than His name.

The church is also "attached at the hip" with the word of faith movement.

I have attended churches with this combination, so I know what he's describing. There are some that overlap teachings.

It is an act of faith to step out in prophetic things, and it takes extra risk to stand on God's promises. So people in active Charismatic fellowships sometimes take in these types of teachings, in varying amounts.

It is risky to label, especially in a derogatory way, and when the WOF movement was not self-proclaimed. Preachers who have been named as leading it have even denied they are involved -- WOF is a fluid informal description.

The basics -- people choose not to sit back and trust that God will work everything out, but believe that when Jesus said keep knocking, o ye of little faith, take authority to cast out devils ... that Jesus was training people how to proceed in kingdom living.

It is a risk that some people are cautious to take, since God is such a supreme authority that we don't dare presume. But some felt that experientially, prayer doesn't always work unless we use God's promises as our legal authority.

But certain teachers became very rich on the popularity of that message, ad the reputation of Word-of-faith preachers has gone so low that some believers avoid them altogether.

Back to the OP questions, we are not to seek out people with powers, or spirits with powers -- we know that angels do many things on earth, but we are not to call on them directly. We know that humans have eternal souls, but we are told not to call upon the spirits of the dead.

It sounded like this church didn't want to admit they were doing that -- with a "this is different" attitude. ("But it's for healing, but it's anointed, but God is with us...") Putting themselves above the law, into a partial state of lawlessness.