How to combat racism

SuperCloud · Jun 25, 2015

Percivale said:
I did not deny that racism exists; rather I'm interested in how to fix it, and I'm pretty sure accusing everybody of being racist is not the way. I think the way that would work is by fixing the continuing problems past racism has caused, such as the economic and social situation of blacks being lower on average. Policies that give more freedom to get a good education (like school vouchers), anything that encourages stable families (including reducing sentencing for non-violent crime), maybe a special FHA style loan to make it easier for blacks to own property, all seem like good ideas. The church can do more too. If this succeeds in making the stereotypes totally false, racism will soon be gone. That worked for Asians; they were victims of racism once too, but now are more respected than whites.

Unless you're Hmong.

Come to Milwaukee. You can find the Hmong pretty easily. They live in the ghettos by blacks and Latinos.

The Hmong had no written language prior to coming to the USA after the Vietnam War (a good number of Vietnam Vets hold racial resentments against "Asians"). And they have had an incredibly difficult time integrating and adapting to the USA from their former rural, mountain lifestyle. The school failure, crime, and incarceration that has marked so much of Black-American life post 1960s has marked the lives of a significant number of young male Hmong.

The younger Hmong integrate into American life. It's their parents generation that had such a terribly hard--and at times tragic--time about it. Some forever on public assistance, alcoholic, and some even committing suicide.

KarateCowboy · Jun 25, 2015

SuperCloud said:
Unless you're Hmong.

Come to Milwaukee. You can find the Hmong pretty easily. They live in the ghettos by blacks and Latinos.

The Hmong had no written language prior to coming to the USA after the Vietnam War (a good number of Vietnam Vets hold racial resentments against "Asians"). And they have had an incredibly difficult time integrating and adapting to the USA from their former rural, mountain lifestyle. The school failure, crime, and incarceration that has marked so much of Black-American life post 1960s has marked the lives of a significant number of young male Hmong.

The younger Hmong integrate into American life. It's their parents generation that had such a terribly hard--and at times tragic--time about it. Some forever on public assistance, alcoholic, and some even committing suicide.

Wisconsinite here. Had a Hmong room mate in college. Gran Turino hit home with me, all the food and everything

KarateCowboy · Jun 25, 2015

Btw, I've always thought that a very strong individualism is good for fighting racism. Also, get rid of divisive things like hyphenated Americanism.

ScottA · Jun 26, 2015

Vylo said:
You can still be racist and admire people of other races. You have probably heard the statement "you are a credit to your race"

No. Every racist admirer of people of other races (an absurd notion, to say the least) can and should be defined as something else. Because you either are prejudice, or not...and that was a behavior of a different time. We moved on. Guess you missed it. This is something different.

Vylo · Jun 26, 2015

ScottA said:
No. Every racist admirer of people of other races (an absurd notion, to say the least) can and should be defined as something else. Because you either are prejudice, or not...and that was a behavior of a different time. We moved on. Guess you missed it. This is something different.

It doesn't mean you admire the other races, just a person from that race.

ScottA · Jun 26, 2015

SuperCloud said:
When was this before, during, or after the Vietnam War with racially integrated units in the US military?

I don't recall this time period you speak of. I was born in 1971. I learned as a child I was "different." And not in a good way. When attending the Catholic grade school I did, at recess, the children self racially segregated themselves. The white kids played in one area. The black kids in another. My black cousin and I tried joining the football game the black kids were playing. But they responded (about me, not him) "No [racial slur for white people] allowed."

My cousin and I tried to persuade them to allow me in the game, reasoning, arguing back that I was half black. But it was to no avail.

So, my cousin relented and joined the game.

I stood alone during the remainder of recess as the white kids and black kids in the self racial segregation played. I must have been in the 1st grade then. That was the first time I really knew I was different.

When my black grandmother, drunk along with my father, got into some drunken argument and she yelled at him not to bring that "halfbreed" back around there I was much younger than I was in 1st grade and too young to know what that meant. I just remember my father slamming her down and his siblings pulling him off her.

My white grandfather--before I was born--told his children not to attend my mother's wedding and told her the doctor told him her child (me) was going to come out a zebra. LOL!!!!!!!! (some things are too funny to take seriously ).

But my grandparents were all from a different time. The WWII "Greatest Generation" I think. They in their generation had their strong points and their weaker points. And in my grandparents defense they all loved me incredibly. Both racial sides of my grandparents. After I was born my grandfather lost his racism. And my black grandmother was in a drunken state, I in fact became her favorite grandchild. Something I'm very happy about. My black grandmother came from out of Jim Crow Mississippi and had an incredibly hard life, racially and otherwise. If were condemned for every drunken thing I've ever said then there'd be no hope for me.

Sorry for the way things were for you...but it was a lie.

Do a little research into who the favorite athletes, stars, etc. were in 1971 and you will see that America was quite over racism.

Oh....people hung on to it, alright, they still do. But that's not racism either, it's "hate", it's "a grudge." Those who didn't hate, didn't keep a grudge got into the music, cheered for our multi-race heroes, stood as brothers.

The haters are at it again. You don't have to believe them. Don't.

ScottA · Jun 26, 2015

Vylo said:
It doesn't mean you admire the other races, just a person from that race.

That's schizophrenic. Yes is yes, and no is no. You're kidding yourself. Honest people don't do that. Racism is not selective.

Vylo · Jun 26, 2015

ScottA said:
That's schizophrenic. Yes is yes, and no is no. You're kidding yourself. Honest people don't do that. Racism is not selective.

You are asking 2 different questions. The ideas are mutually exclusive. You can admire a person of a race and still disdain the race in general. Many frontiersmen regarded certain Indian warriors highly, but they still treated most Indians like subhumans due to their race. This is why it is often considered offensive to tell someone they "are a credit to their race", as it implies their race in general is inferior.

High Fidelity · Jun 26, 2015

MOD HAT ON

The thread has been cleaned up.

Please remember to post in line with the topic and also to address the content of the post, not the poster.

MOD HAT OFF

SuperCloud · Jun 26, 2015

KarateCowboy said:
Wisconsinite here. Had a Hmong room mate in college. Gran Turino hit home with me, all the food and everything

Gran Turino was a great movie. I've never actually known any Hmong though, aside from the casual brief association, passing, or conversation. I've never been in the home of one or eaten any of their food.

You don't find them in Black-American middle-class neighborhoods (not in any real numbers at least). Milwaukee I'm talking about. 't speak for outside of Milwaukee. I know they're suppose to have a large population out in California I think it. Wisconsin and Cali are the two states their most dominate in I think. And Minnesota too. Or maybe Wisconsin come in 3rd. Can't remember.

Anyways... I see them in gritty ghetto neighborhoods like around Brown street around 35th street and east of 35th. I'm black, born here, and I'd hate to live over there LOL! So, I can only imagine the culture shock the older new arrivals from South East Asia had/have moving into that area.

I see them on the Near-South Side among the Latinos too.

The interesting thing is... you see these little old ladies (the Hmong are in general a tiny people, you know) riding the public bus and walking quietly through these ghetto black neighborhoods, dressed in their traditional Hmong attire from back in South East Asia.

Did you room mate have one of those short cars? I see the young Hmong like small cars and they deck them out. And it'll be a car load of them too LOL. I've never seen a Hmong driving a Cadillac or some bigger American car. Never seen one driving an SUV either now that I think of it.

KarateCowboy · Jun 26, 2015

SuperCloud said:
Did you room mate have one of those short cars? I see the young Hmong like small cars and they deck them out. And it'll be a car load of them too LOL. I've never seen a Hmong driving a Cadillac or some bigger American car. Never seen one driving an SUV either now that I think of it.

My room mate had a Kawasaki Ninja motorbike. His car was a modest and practical thing. However, many of his friends had Mistubishi Lancers and stuff that they riced out. Speaking of rice, their food is suuuuuper hot. It's the only food I've eaten where it actually burns going in and going out. Sorry for the raunch. I remember going to a Hmong house party where I and two others were the only white people there. There were 20-30 Hmong there in that apartment. We three white guys were all over 6'2" (from USA, Iceland, Sweden). I may have been the only one to notice, though. Nobody said anything. Have you seen any signs in the parks where its English, Spanish, Hmong? I've seen a couple.

fat wee robin · Jun 26, 2015

dgiharris said:
I have the misfortune of being a big black man. During the course of my life I have never been arrested, never committed a crime, never been under suspicion of having committed a crime, and even during most of my adult life held a top secret clearance. And yet, I have had police draw guns on me multiple times.

In the corporate world, I can't tell you how many times I've been in earshot of people who didn't know I was around and got to listen to what they really thought of blacks or Hispanics.

I find your post pretty insulting. You do not believe racism exists or if it does exist, it is mild and blown out of proportion or it is the fault of the oppressed. If only they would be quiet and know their place racism would go away...

Are there things that blacks and/or Hispanics do wrong in regards to lessening racism? Sure. I can easily grant that there are some things we do wrong. However, that is not synonymous with us being the cause of racism.

Truth is, there IS racism and a lot of the racism is systemic and institutional. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. You can dig up data on it from all aspects of life. From the judicial system (judgements against blacks vs whites for the same crime) to police arrests (police profiling and focus on minorities) to legislation (racially biased laws)...

Every day I encounter racism, just the other day I was alone in an elevator at a hotel. It opens and an Asian lady is about to come in, sees me, stops, backs up, and waits for the next elevator because apparently being alone with me in an elevator is not safe. My favorite is when I'm walking down the sidewalk and the person approaching me crosses the street, then passes me, then crosses back. That happens to me about 25% of the time whenever I take a walk (I live in a decent neighborhood).

Anyways, I just get annoyed when the "well racism isn't so bad" type of discussions come up. Sure, things are way better than they were 50 years ago. I will grant that, but there is still racism and I encounter it daily in some way shape or form.

Well that makes me rather However sometimes we can imagine slights were there are none .A big man of any kind in a lift,ykes .I wait till the next one .
Have you ever though what it is like to be a woman who can't go certain places ,
and encounters fear often ? Sometimes we are given difficulties in order to see an other point of view to make us more aware ,make us grow .

fat wee robin · Jun 26, 2015

TheBear said:
Calling someone a racist is a conversation stopper. In many cases, the term is use to taint an individual, (the politics of personal attacks strategy), so that anything they have to say is clouded and rendered unreliable and incorrect.

I did'nt think I would agree with an atheist perhaps theres hope for you .

Hetta · Jun 26, 2015

Vylo said:
It doesn't mean you admire the other races, just a person from that race.

Do you think that can be true? If a person doesn't admire a race, why would he care if someone was an embodiment of that race? Wouldn't he (or she) be saying that in a sarcastic tone "oh you're a great example of your race" complete with eye roll. I can't think of a race I dislike, but say there was one, I don't think I would want to approve someone who was an example of that race.

nightflight · Jun 26, 2015

The point is to combat racism but not eliminate it. The regime needs enemies.

dgiharris · Jun 26, 2015

fat wee robin said:
Well that makes me rather However sometimes we can imagine slights were there are none .A big man of any kind in a lift,ykes .I wait till the next one .
Have you ever though what it is like to be a woman who can't go certain places ,
and encounters fear often ? Sometimes we are given difficulties in order to see an other point of view to make us more aware ,make us grow .

Basically, I need to understand that I'm a scary big black man and everyone has a right to be afraid of me and treat me like a wild animal that will just snap and hurt them whenever I'm given any opportunity???? EDIT: to be fair, you aren't really saying that, you are saying that I should have empathy for women being afraid. But truth is, if a woman is afraid to walk around in daylight hours in a business area she shouldn't leave the house. Those fears are just unwarranted and frankly just silly. There is a difference between walking to your car in an underground parking garage at night vs being in an elevator during business hours in a place of commerce... just sayin...

If my intent was to hurt that woman, does she really think that she is safe not getting in the elevator with me? I could just grab her and drag her into the elevator. Of if I'm just such a wild animal, I'd just rape her in the hallway in broad daylight . If my intent is to hurt the woman who crosses the street to avoid me, I would just cross the street when she crosses the street.

Funny story, one day I was walking to the store one afternoon and I approached an Asian woman who saw me coming and decided to cross the street (like I said, happens all the time). That day, I just was sick of it. So, we are about 40 yards from each other and she crosses the street, so I cross the street. Now we are 20 yards from each other and she crosses the street again, so I cross the street again. Now, her eyes are the size of saucers and she doesn't know what to do as we are approaching each other. As I get closer to her she just freezes, I walk straight up to her and then I say, "Good afternoon, how are you today..." and then I walk passed her.

I have a fairly high amount of empathy, but sometimes you just get sick of everyone being afraid of you, not liking you, or treating you like a wild animal. Day in and day out and day in and day out, sometimes it just wears on you... I'm about to head out for the day. I'm going to go shopping then I'm going to go out. I'm going to encounter at least 2 incidents of me being treated like a scary animal in the next couple of hours. I have to park a block away and on the way to my car if anyone is walking towards me there is a 25% chance they will cross the street to avoid me. When I stand near a white or Asian or Indian woman in the elevator she is going to casually shift her purse to the other side of her as if I'm going to rob her. When I go to a high priced store, the clerk is going to casually ask me questions to make sure I know that this is an "expensive" store as if I don't know.

You just get tired of it sometimes...

fat wee robin · Jun 26, 2015

SuperCloud said:
Gran Turino was a great movie. I've never actually known any Hmong though, aside from the casual brief association, passing, or conversation. I've never been in the home of one or eaten any of their food.

You don't find them in Black-American middle-class neighborhoods (not in any real numbers at least). Milwaukee I'm talking about. 't speak for outside of Milwaukee. I know they're suppose to have a large population out in California I think it. Wisconsin and Cali are the two states their most dominate in I think. And Minnesota too. Or maybe Wisconsin come in 3rd. Can't remember.

Anyways... I see them in gritty ghetto neighborhoods like around Brown street around 35th street and east of 35th. I'm black, born here, and I'd hate to live over there LOL! So, I can only imagine the culture shock the older new arrivals from South East Asia had/have moving into that area.

I see them on the Near-South Side among the Latinos too.

The interesting thing is... you see these little old ladies (the Hmong are in general a tiny people, you know) riding the public bus and walking quietly through these ghetto black neighborhoods, dressed in their traditional Hmong attire from back in South East Asia.

Did you room mate have one of those short cars? I see the young Hmong like small cars and they deck them out. And it'll be a car load of them too LOL. I've never seen a Hmong driving a Cadillac or some bigger American car. Never seen one driving an SUV either now that I think of it.

If I was discussng this subject with a class of pupils ,I would use your posts as an example of clarity,as being informative ,balanced, and totally without rancour of any kind .They make a great case against any kind of racism ,as they without effort give all sides of the story .They are not forced at all,but give a complete picture . I especially loved your post 100,and I think, instead of posting here, you should write a book in your natural manner ,not changing that .

fat wee robin · Jun 26, 2015

dgiharris said:
Basically, I need to understand that I'm a scary big black man and everyone has a right to be afraid of me and treat me like a wild animal that will just snap and hurt them whenever I'm given any opportunity???? EDIT: to be fair, you aren't really saying that, you are saying that I should have empathy for women being afraid. But truth is, if a woman is afraid to walk around in daylight hours in a business area she shouldn't leave the house. Those fears are just unwarranted and frankly just silly. There is a difference between walking to your car in an underground parking garage at night vs being in an elevator during business hours in a place of commerce... just sayin...

If my intent was to hurt that woman, does she really think that she is safe not getting in the elevator with me? I could just grab her and drag her into the elevator. Of if I'm just such a wild animal, I'd just rape her in the hallway in broad daylight . If my intent is to hurt the woman who crosses the street to avoid me, I would just cross the street when she crosses the street.

Funny story, one day I was walking to the store one afternoon and I approached an Asian woman who saw me coming and decided to cross the street (like I said, happens all the time). That day, I just was sick of it. So, we are about 40 yards from each other and she crosses the street, so I cross the street. Now we are 20 yards from each other and she crosses the street again, so I cross the street again. Now, her eyes are the size of saucers and she doesn't know what to do as we are approaching each other. As I get closer to her she just freezes, I walk straight up to her and then I say, "Good afternoon, how are you today..." and then I walk passed her.

I have a fairly high amount of empathy, but sometimes you just get sick of everyone being afraid of you, not liking you, or treating you like a wild animal. Day in and day out and day in and day out, sometimes it just wears on you... I'm about to head out for the day. I'm going to go shopping then I'm going to go out. I'm going to encounter at least 2 incidents of me being treated like a scary animal in the next couple of hours. I have to park a block away and on the way to my car if anyone is walking towards me there is a 25% chance they will cross the street to avoid me. When I stand near a white or Asian or Indian woman in the elevator she is going to casually shift her purse to the other side of her as if I'm going to rob her. When I go to a high priced store, the clerk is going to casually ask me questions to make sure I know that this is an "expensive" store as if I don't know.

You just get tired of it sometimes...

You see you acted with ANGER .I do not go into elevators with people if I can help it .I don't like being closed in with strangers,especially if there is not a lot of room ..Maybe if you took that chip away it would help , as maybe it is not because of the colour of your skin, but your "aura",your "attitude" . We all get hurt by living .Life is tough ,people annoy us and hurt is in so many small ways everyday ,but if your ego is too fragile ,it is because you care too much about you, and you need to drop counting your miseries and start counting your blessings . People then won't care what you look like ,but pick up on what a warm character you are .

SuperCloud · Jun 26, 2015

KarateCowboy said:
Have you seen any signs in the parks where its English, Spanish, Hmong? I've seen a couple.

Can't say I have. Maybe I just don't pay attention. I don't go to too many parks these days either. Or maybe there are no such signs in multiple languages in Milwaukee parks.

The only thing related to that that I'm aware of is the South Side of Milwaukee were a lot of the spoken languages in stores and other businesses is Spanish. Of course, there are things--at times--written in Spanish over there too.

fat wee robin said:
If I was discussng this subject with a class of pupils ,I would use your posts as an example of clarity,as being informative ,balanced, and totally without rancour of any kind .They make a great case against any kind of racism ,as they without effort give all sides of the story .They are not forced at all,but give a complete picture . I especially loved your post 100,and I think, instead of posting here, you should write a book in your natural manner ,not changing that .

Hey, thank you for the kind words, wee robin. I was not expecting that.

TheBear · Jun 26, 2015

fat wee robin said:
I did'nt think I would agree with an atheist perhaps theres hope for you .

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