How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[Clare73]

Even if they were immediately taken to paradise for all eternity?

Is it unjust for me to murder a man born again?

God, as well as our legal system, say it is.

You really do make up your own rules for justice, don't you?

Where does God say a destiny of paradise for the victim makes murder lawful?

 

[BNR32FAN]

BTW, you are implying, whether you mean to or not —or at least causing the reader to infer— that I "don't believe God has to be just", which you apparently take to mean that I think he can be unjust. What I said was that justice derives FROM God. So no man can say (truthfully at least) that God "has to" or "is required to" comply or live up to anyone's definition of "just". That he does justice, always, is beyond question. The fact is that our notions, our definitions, are required to live up to him, and at that, we always fall short.

Then the scriptures should say that God’s judgement is _______. The word “just” should’ve been omitted since apparently we don’t actually have a word that describes His judgement, at least according to what your saying here. No I don’t care how many times you say it the fact is that the scriptures did use the word “just” to describe God’s character and judgement and your removing the definition of the word “just” because that definition contradicts your theology. Hence your theology contradicts scripture. Scripture says God and His judgement are just and you are redefining the word just which is twisting what the scriptures actually state.

 

[John Mullally]

What your saying here is that if God is unjust He is actually just. Your just contradicting the definition of the word just as if it doesn’t apply to God which is incorrect because God is not above the definition of unjust. If He is to be just then He is required to act within a certain moral code otherwise His justice is subjective and there is no justice at all. Then God wouldn’t be just He would simply act however He pleased with no constraints at all. I know that’s what you think God does but if that were the case then He could not be considered to be just if He defies the very definition of the word. The only way God can be just is by acting within the set parameters of the definition of that word, if He doesn’t then He is not just. It’s like saying God is green when He’s actually blue and ignoring what color He actually is. The definition of just is fair and impartial which I know Calvinists struggle with because they absolutely believe that God is not impartial even tho the scriptures specifically state that He is in Romans 2 and Acts 10. The word just has a set definition and ANYONE acting outside of the parameters of that definition by definition cannot be called just. God is absolutely just BECAUSE He does act within those parameters. The same definition of just that applies to humans is the same definition that applies to God. Just because you don’t think so is irrelevant and actually contradictory to the scriptures. And again it comes back to not believing what the scriptures actually state.

The semantic philosophical back-and-forth reminds me of this

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is it unjust for me to murder a man born again?

God, as well as our legal system, say it is.

You really do make up your own rules for justice, don't you?

Where does God say a destiny of paradise for the victim makes murder lawful?

Yes murder is a sin.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The semantic philosophical back-and-forth reminds me of this

Incontheivable lol

 

[Clare73]

But the author of Hebrews didn’t say they thought they had repented, he said “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance”. The author is indirectly stating that they were repentant before they fell away.

The writer is saying that it is impossible to renew them again to (proselytes by) repentance of their current apostasy, for their apostasy demonstrates they were never born again.

 

[Clare73]

Yes murder is a sin.

But not for God?

But doesn't God have to abide by our understanding of morality?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is it unjust for me to murder a man born again?

Yes it’s a sin

God, as well as our legal system, say it is.

Yep

You really do make up your own rules for justice, don't you?

No I provided the ACTUAL definition of the word.

Where does God say a destiny of paradise for the victim makes murder lawful?

He doesn’t, what’s your point?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The writer is saying that it is impossible to renew them again to (proselytes by) repentance of their apostasy, for their apostasy demonstrates they were never born again.

No that’s not what he said at all your just adding to the scriptures because you refuse to accept what was ACTUALLY written.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But not for God. . .

But doesn't God have to abide by our understanding of morality?

God doesn’t murder because murder is the unlawful killing of a person. God is not under the law. That doesn’t mean that God is not under the restraints that He imposed on Himself. By the written word of God He imposed on Himself that His judgement must be just. Unless you think He’s a two faced liar.

 

[Clare73]

He doesn’t, what’s your point?

Your assertion that it's not unjust to murder someone if he goes to heaven.

Your "justice" applies only to the eternal for the regenerate, and only to the temporal for the unregenerate.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But not for God. . .

But doesn't God have to abide by our understanding of morality?

You skipped my question, what is the definition of “just”?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your assertion that it's not unjust to murder someone if he goes to heaven.

Your "justice" applies only to the eternal for the regenerate, and only to the temporal for the unregenerate.

Again murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of a person.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your "justice" applies only to the eternal for the regenerate, and only to the temporal for the unregenerate.

How so?

 

[Clare73]

No that’s not what he said at all your just adding to the scriptures because
you refuse to accept what was ACTUALLY written.

Like you refuse to accept what is actually written regarding the justice of God, requiring instead that it conform to your contra-Biblical notions.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Like you refuse to accept what is actually written regarding the justice of God, requiring instead that it conform to your contra-Biblical notions.

What is ACTUALLY written about the justice of God? His judgement is just. Is death judgement? What was God’s judgement on those children that were killed in 2 Samuel?

 

[Clare73]

God doesn’t murder because murder is the unlawful killing of a person.
God is not under the law.
That doesn’t mean that God is not under the restraints that He imposed on Himself.

And you know how, that

1) God has imposed restraints on himself (as if God has to be restrained in order to be righteous) and that

2) those supposed restraints are not his own laws?

 

[John Caldwell]

You say, "I am saying she needs to read Scripture more carefully (the text)." —Don't we all? Where did she say the text does not present God being One? I very sincerely doubt she said that!

Yes, we all do.

I don't think you understand what I am saying.

She introduced the Trinity implying that a literal interpretation (to an extreme) would exclude the doctrine. But it doesn't.

Scripture states the Trinity. Granted, much of the philosophical ideas about the Trinity that we may believe (to varying degrees) may not be stated, but those are not doctrines (IMHO) upon which to build. The basic doctrine is in the text.

My point is that there are many approaches to Scripture. Calvinism does not take a literal approach (although many Calvinists believe they do). I insist on a literal approach, that foundational (first order) doctrines must be in "what is written". Therefore I could not be a Calvinist (it is one or the other).

That does not make me right or wrong. It simply explains why we will not agree.

My hope is that others who have not will at least read Scripture for "what is written", and understand how the text itself makes sence. Then compare other views, reexamine their own, and make an informed decision regarding their position.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And you know how, that

1) God has imposed restraints on himself (as if God has to be restrained in order to be righteous) and that

2) those supposed restraints are not his own laws?

Because the scriptures say that He is just and His judgement is just. If He was to act unjustly or judge unjustly then the scriptures would be false. And who wrote the scriptures? They are the word of _____?

 

[Clare73]

What is ACTUALLY written about the justice of God? His judgement is just. Is death judgement? What was God’s judgement on those children that were killed in 2 Samuel?

In Scripture, judgment--both spiritual (loss of eternal life) and physical--is punishment.
Human death was a judgment of God on Adam for sin, and likewise a judgment on us (Romans 6:23).