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The question is not what you consider, the question is can you Biblically demonstrate what Calvin states is not presented in Scripture?Well...ya, but in reference to what, my dear? To specific actions ascribed to God by Calvinism that I consider to be evil.
Pretty much what every doctrine states can be found in scripture though. They all have a series of proof texts.The question is not what you consider, the question is can you Biblically demonstrate what Calvin states is not presented in Scripture?
I haven't found anything yet which he states that is not in Scripture. . .not that I have read him extensively.
The question is not what either you, myself, or Calvin considers but about the truth, and people of the church have struggled with this matter since far before the reformation, involving scripture, reason, and the early reception of the faith, and the one thing that has been rejected is the concept of double predestination, as against that which we know of God and His will. Otherwise we’d all be following a God not worth following anyway.The question is not what you consider, the question is can you Biblically demonstrate what Calvin states is not presented in Scripture?
I haven't found anything yet which he states that is not in Scripture. . .not that I have read him extensively.
And those which seem contradictory to the sovereignty of God can be reconciled without contradicting either one.Pretty much what every doctrine states can be found in scripture though. They all have a series of proof texts.
How do you have single predestination (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11)The question is not what either you, myself, or Calvin considers but about the truth, and people of the church have struggled with this matter since far before the reformation, involving scripture, reason, and the early reception of the faith, and the one thing that has been rejected is the concept of double predestination, as against that which we know of God and His will. Otherwise we’d all be following a God not worth following anyway.
Or, do they send themselves to hell, and God does not choose to detour their destination?When someone asks, "how can a loving God send people to hell"?
The reply I usually hear is, "people send themselves to hell by rejecting salvation from hell".
But it seems going by the Calvin view, God does indeed send people to hell.
And they have absolutely no chance, choice or hope in avoiding it?
It's how one qualifies the term "predestination" in order to understand what it means regarding God's will for man an His actions within us. It's not strict determinism, but rather includes God's foreknowledge of what we will do, then His use of our choices and actions for His own purposes. So, did God harden Pharoah's heart or did Pharoah harden Pharoah's heart? In Exodus it's said that both did, but that Pharoah hardended his own heart many more times than that God did. So the Church teaches:How do you have single predestination (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11)
without double predestination?
Is to include only some not necessarily to exclude all others?
The problem with that is divine "foreknowledge" in the Bible is never used of God knowing in advance what man will do, it is always of God knowing what he will do because before the foundations of the world, he decreed that he shall do it.It's how one qualifies the term "predestination" in order to understand what it means regarding God's will for man an His actions within us. It's not strict determinism, but rather includes God's foreknowledge of what we will do,
It appears in Exodus 4:21 for the first time, before Moses had even left Midian to go to Pharaoh.then His use of our choices and actions for His own purposes. So, did God harden Pharoah's heart or did Pharoah harden Pharoah's heart? In Exodus it's said that both did, but that Pharoah hardended his own heart many more times than that God did.
As for the sovereignty of God, most agree that God is the supreme power and authority. It's the nature of God as described in scripture, which certain doctrines seem to contradict. In other words, the question isn't could God do whatever, since God can can do anything. The question is would God do whatever.And those which seem contradictory to the sovereignty of God can be reconciled without contradicting either one.
It doesn't seem that would amount to them sending themselves to hell though, if God predestined them to go there no matter what.Or, do they send themselves to hell, and God does not choose to detour their destination?
Does he in justice owe them such detour?
If he does not (and he does not), then they have no just claim against God.
Is God not free to show mercy to some if he so chooses? (Romans 9:18)
Is he not free to leave some in justice for the sake of magnifying his mercy toward those to whom he shows it, so that his mercy may be even more understood and appreciated by them?
Scripture, with whom Calvin agrees, says he is. (Romans 9:22-23)
For God's response to man's objection to this, see Isaiah 55:8-9.
As for the sovereignty of God, most agree that God is the supreme power and authority. It's the nature of God as described in scripture, which certain doctrines seem to contradict. In other words, the question isn't could God do whatever, since God can can do anything. The question is would God do whatever.
Actually, the question is did God do whatever?As for the sovereignty of God, most agree that God is the supreme power and authority. It's the nature of God as described in scripture, which certain doctrines seem to contradict. In other words, the question isn't could God do whatever, since God can can do anything.
The question is would God do whatever.
God predestined not to save them from the hell to which they sent themselves.It doesn't seem that would amount to them sending themselves to hell though, if
God predestined them to go there no matter what.
Irrelevant. . .all that matters is what the Scriptures actually present, no matter when it was presented.The Calvinist / Reformed interpretation of Romans 9 didn't exist until 1500 years after it was written.
I suggest that is probably also about the number of born again in the world. . .demonstrating what?And according to what I looked up, currently
only about 80 million out of 800 million (10%) Protestants are Calvinist / Reformed.
How do you have single predestination (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11)
without double predestination?
If you go grocery shopping to get 5 red pears you select or choose 5 pears you leave the other ones right where they are .
you don't force them out of your basket you just don't put them in they were never chosen
And if there are only two outcomes for the pears, in your basket or in the garbage fire,If you go grocery shopping to get 5 red pears you select or choose 5 pears you leave the other ones right where they are .
you don't force them out of your basket you just don't put them in they were never chosen
How can they send themselves to a predestined destination?God predestined not to save them from the hell to which they sent themselves.
It's relevant to me. And everyone has scriptures. The SDA have gobs of scripture. But it's another doctrine that didn't exist for a thousand plus hundreds of years. I'm a little skeptical of these doctrines that God waited so long to enlighten someone with.Irrelevant. . .all that matters is what the Scriptures actually present, no matter when it was presented.
Are the born again in the world all Calvinists?I suggest that is probably also about the number of born again in the world. . .demonstrating what?
How is that a question?Actually, the question is did God do whatever.
Another word for speculation is conjecture. As in from interpreting scripture, John Calvin conjectured TULIP and predestination."Would" is speculation, unless it is contrary to a command.
I give up. . .how can they?How can they send themselves to a predestined destination?
I suspect if you check church history, you will find that he didn't "wait so long to enlighten someone with."It's relevant to me. And everyone has scriptures. The SDA have gobs of scripture. But it's another doctrine that didn't exist for a thousand plus hundreds of years. I'm a
little skeptical of these doctrines that God waited so long to enlighten someone with.
And you know this, how?This isn't something someone comes up with from just reading the Bible, because
if it was, many would have come up with it hundreds of years earlier.
And you know this, how?It's something one has to be indoctrinated in. Which the OP article happens to confirm.
I don't know all the born again in the world, so I can't answer that question.Are the born again in the world all Calvinists?
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