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So, you are saying that all those people who heard tongues being spoken in their native languages and either turned to Christ or had a dynamic experience of the reality and presence of God, are liars?
So, are you saying that all those unbelievers on the Day of Pentecost who heard the wonderful works of God spoken in their own regional dialects were activating the gift of interpretation? How can that be when the gift of interpretation of tongues is for those in the body of Christ? Also, interpretation of tongues is not direct translation. This is why a tongues utterance can have more than one interpretation in a fellowship service.If that is what you think I should say, then yea, they are liars. Does that make you feel better?
If a person heard another person speaking by the gift of tongues in a human language, then the gift of interpretation was activated, period.
So, are you saying that all those unbelievers on the Day of Pentecost who heard the wonderful works of God spoken in their own regional dialects were activating the gift of interpretation? How can that be when the gift of interpretation of tongues is for those in the body of Christ? Also, interpretation of tongues is not direct translation. This is why a tongues utterance can have more than one interpretation in a fellowship service.
Actually, if you are saying that "no man understands" in 1 Corinthians 14:2 is the definitive standard of tongues language, how do you account for the tongues spoken at Pentecost, seeing that gift of interpretation of tongues is not given to unbelievers?
I think that you are committed to your premise that God can't use the gift of tongues to cause a person to speak a world language which a native speaker of the language can understand, and that you are trying to fit the Scripture into it. My view is from what I see from the whole of the Scriptures and the real-life experiences of believers. It is that real-life experiences of believers speaking world languages understood by speakers of the languages doesn't fit into your preconceived premise and so you are quite willing to adapt Scripture and accuse those who testify that they have understood the language when someone has spoken in tongues, of lying.Lolol, I feel like I trying to train a kid how to ride a bike.
Here is your clue as to what happened in acts 2,...
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
We've been over this already.
This gift does not operate in human languages Oscarr. If you want to fool others about that, go ahead, maybe they will listen to you.
Music to my ears (or eyes)!You just need to get out more! My successor as a UMC pastor was Spirit-baptized with the evidence of praising God in fluent Korean. A Canadian pastor's wife from my neck of the woods interpreted a message in tongues about the safety of her missionary daughter trying to flee an African country in fluent Swahili. Another pastor's wife, this time near LA, interpreted a message in tongues in modern Hebrew calling Dennis Balcombe to clandestinely evangelize Communist China. Balcombe's mass conversions in China are described in New York Times correspondent, David Aikman's book "Jesus in Beijing." All 3 languages were confirmed by someone present who knew those languages, but none of the tongues speakers recognized the languages they were speaking.
I think that you are committed to your premise that God can't use the gift of tongues to cause a person to speak a world language which a native speaker of the language can understand, and that you are trying to fit the Scripture into it. My view is from what I see from the whole of the Scriptures and the real-life experiences of believers. It is that real-life experiences of believers speaking world languages understood by speakers of the languages doesn't fit into your preconceived premise and so you are quite willing to adapt Scripture and accuse those who testify that they have understood the language when someone has spoken in tongues, of lying.
Also, the Scripture does not clearly define what interpretation of tongues actually is. The way interpretation of tongues is used in Pentecostal churches could very well be a guess in the absence of a comprehensive user manual of how the gifts should be operated.
We have only two main references concerning tongues: What happened on the Day of Pentecost which was quite unique, although Peter says that what happen at the house of Cornelius was the same as what happened at Pentecost, which implies understandable languages (maybe Hebrew because Cornelius' family would have been able to speak Latin and Greek but not Hebrew, while Peter and his team could. But then that is a guess based on what Peter described to the other Apostles in Jerusalem. There is no indication that the 12 Ephesian disciples spoke understandable languages when the Holy Spirit fell on them. But the record stated that they spoke in tongues and prophesied, which could imply that tongues and interpretation were manifested, but we are not told that clearly.
The other reference to tongues is 1 Corinthians 14. There is no mention of anyone speaking in tongues and being understood by anyone in the meeting. That is understandable, because there were only Jews and Greeks in the meeting. So Paul is correct when he says that someone speaking in tongues could not be understood by anyone except there was an interpretation. But the tongues spoken in the Corinthian environment were not the same as the Pentecost environment, because the manifestation was different in each environment and for a different purpose. Tongues at Pentecost were a sign to the unbelievers, while tongues for the Corinthians were for personal prayer to God, unless spoken in conjunction with interpretation.
Although we don't see any reference to spoken tongues being understood by anyone, except for the crowd on the Day of Pentecost, we can use the evidence of church history and the history of the Pentecostal movement to show that the experience of the Day of Pentecost has been repeated from time to time. Every time it has happened it has been for a definite purpose and mainly around getting individuals and groups to turn to Christ.
You just need to get out more! My successor as a UMC pastor was Spirit-baptized with the evidence of praising God in fluent Korean. A Canadian pastor's wife from my neck of the woods interpreted a message in tongues about the safety of her missionary daughter trying to flee an African country in fluent Swahili. Another pastor's wife, this time near LA, interpreted a message in tongues in modern Hebrew calling Dennis Balcombe to clandestinely evangelize Communist China. Balcombe's mass conversions in China are described in New York Times correspondent, David Aikman's book "Jesus in Beijing." All 3 languages were confirmed by someone present who knew those languages, but none of the tongues speakers recognized the languages they were speaking.
I think that many are reluctant to enter into the prophetic ministry because of the hijacking of the Charismatic movement by the false prophets and teachers of churches like the Glory of Zion church. People watch Youtube videos of popular "prophets" and hear prophecies that basically say nothing. These modern Youtube prophecies are nothing like the prophecies I used to hear when I was a member of a Pentecostal church in the 1970s. Those prophecies made sense. I remember the prophecy that was said over my wife and I at our wedding, about the North wind of adversity was going to flow to us followed by the healing South wind. It was fulfilled six years later when my wife became deeply depressed and our marriage broke down, and after a number of years, I was able to rebuild my life and was remarried to a much more supportive marriage which resulted in 30 years of happiness and hopefully quite a number of years in the future.It seems you can't just give a simple response.
Here is your answer: When The Holy Spirit gives utterance in tongues,...................He gives the utterance of the interpretation also. It is a package deal, hence all the gifts were poured out on that day, just like all the fruit of The Spirit is given to you when you are born again.
Additionally, there is a difference between the personal use of the gift of tongues and the ministry use by The Holy Spirit. That event was the ministry use of the gift, and it is stated as such.
It seems most people on this board may have an understanding of the personal use of the gift of tongues, but they lack any experience of The Holy Spirit operating the gifts in the assembly, and it shows.
The problem is that most churches that are allied to the NAR movement which we view on Youtube don't manifest the true gift of tongues, so I wouldn't expect any miracle of speaking an understandable language happening in them. The Pentecostal movement is nothing like it was in the first half of the 20th Century. By the time I got into it in 1966, it was mostly motivational talk about the gifts but no real demonstration of them.I'm sort of laughing right now about this thread.
You guys,..... we don't bypass the gift of interpretation somehow. We don't get to say that the gift of tongues interprets itself thereby throwing the gift of interpretation to the side,.... they work together, that's why each was given.
If a person hears another speaking in tongues, and it begins to be understandable in their human language,... that is the gift of interpretation operating. It wasn't that person speaking a human language by tongues,... it was the gift of interpretation giving the understanding of what was being spoken.
The problem is that most churches that are allied to the NAR movement which we view on Youtube don't manifest the true gift of tongues, so I wouldn't expect any miracle of speaking an understandable language happening in them. The Pentecostal movement is nothing like it was in the first half of the 20th Century. By the time I got into it in 1966, it was mostly motivational talk about the gifts but no real demonstration of them.
The NAR version of the word of knowledge is given by the preacher with his iphone in his hand looking up social media getting information about the person.
What I am saying is that in the current environment where the teaching about and practice of tongues, true tongues have been pushed into the background and what we see on Youtube is the counterfeit. This has so muddied the waters that ordinary people can no longer distinguish between what is real and what is false. This is why many genuine Pentecostal churches have tended away from tongues and interpretation for fear of appearing like the false Youtube ones. So in the light of what once was the lunatic fringe becoming now the mainstream face of the Charismatic our discussion about whether tongues are human languages or angelic is basically pointless, because the false tongues of the hijacked mainstream would never consist of human understandable languages, and that your view of them being angelic is also in doubt. I am coming to believe that the languages I see on Youtube is neither human nor angelic, but plain kookubananatown gibberish.Again,.... what does this have to do with the topic?
What I am saying is that in the current environment where the teaching about and practice of tongues, true tongues have been pushed into the background and what we see on Youtube is the counterfeit. This has so muddied the waters that ordinary people can no longer distinguish between what is real and what is false. This is why many genuine Pentecostal churches have tended away from tongues and interpretation for fear of appearing like the false Youtube ones. So in the light of what once was the lunatic fringe becoming now the mainstream face of the Charismatic our discussion about whether tongues are human languages or angelic is basically pointless, because the false tongues of the hijacked mainstream would never consist of human understandable languages, and that your view of them being angelic is also in doubt. I am coming to believe that the languages I see on Youtube is neither human nor angelic, but plain kookubananatown gibberish.
I will let the OP decide whether my comments are appropriate in his thread or not.Ok let me ask again,.... what does that have to do with the topic? Are you going off topic on purpose?
I will let the OP decide whether my comments are appropriate in his thread or not.
EDIT:
If they were interpreted by The Holy Spirit, then that fits the operation of the gift of interpretation. That gift is in human languages,... and it doesn't need to be in yours specifically.
In two of the xenoglossalic cases (Hebrew and Swahili), the tongues were interpreted by a pastor's wife who didn't know the language. But in my successor's case (a United Methodist pastor), he praised God in uninterpreted Korean in a prayer meeting. His praise was not supernaturally interpreted; it was recognized as Korean by a Korean member of the prayer group. Such examples could be multiplied and they refute your view that prayer tongues never express human languages.
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