How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

Rick Otto · Sep 30, 2007

Ben johnson;Scripture says that "walking in the flesh", or "by the Spirit putting to death the flesh", is a choice.

A choice predestined is still a choice.

That's why he said "obligation". One is not obligated to do that which is sovereignly-ordained by God.

That is exactly what one is not only obligated, but bound and determined to do - that which is predestined by God.

Do you accept that "obligation", by definition conveys "free choice"?

Only if I'm thinking with my flesh, & not my spirit.
For anything in creation to not be determined, means God didn't know what He was creating.
God is not ignorant.
We are only free to be what we were created to be.

If we were created to deny God's sovereignity, it is all we will be able to do, even when repeatedly shown scripture that affirms His sovereignity.

If we were created only to believe we are free of His sovereignity, that is all we will be capable of believing.

LJSGM · Sep 30, 2007

We are saved by faith, not works. So based on logic, faith is not works. Why do calvinists believe that faith is works? God chooses those that have faith/believe in Him (Christ). That is God's sovereign choice, and it's quite understandable as well.

cygnusx1 · Sep 30, 2007

LJSGM said:
We are saved by faith, not works. So based on logic, faith is not works. Why do calvinists believe that faith is works? God chooses those that have faith/believe in Him (Christ). That is God's sovereign choice, and it's quite understandable as well.

there are several none-calvinists who post here stating faith is a work , why make it a Calvinist issue when it isn't ?

LJSGM · Sep 30, 2007

Well then everyone, is faith a work?

Rick Otto · Sep 30, 2007

Faith is a work.
But it is a work of God, not of ourselves.
Joh 6:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

LJSGM · Sep 30, 2007

Rick Otto said:
Faith is a work.
But it is a work of God, not of ourselves.
Joh 6:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

wow, that was way out of context

cygnusx1 · Sep 30, 2007

LJSGM said:
Well then everyone, is faith a work?

in one sense no.

in one sense , yes.

it is a work of God .

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6:29

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. -- Galatians 5:6 (KJV)

LJSGM · Sep 30, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
in one sense no.

in one sense , yes.

it is a work of God .

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6:29

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. -- Galatians 5:6 (KJV)

Jesus says, "this is what you do to do the work of God," Believe in the one that He has sent. So, essentially you are saying that salvation is based on the "work" that we do to believe.

cygnusx1 · Sep 30, 2007

LJSGM said:
Jesus says, "this is what you do to do the work of God," Believe in the one that He has sent. So, essentially you are saying that salvation is based on the "work" that we do to believe.

NO !

for the reason that I have given over and over again ;

we are not saved BECAUSE we have faith or because we have works that complete our faith , we are saved BY GRACE through faith unto good works ........ Grace is opposed to merit of any kind.

cygnusx1 · Sep 30, 2007

your faith , although a Divine Gift, can no more be the actual ground of your Righteousness than your works ...... why ?

because both are imperfect!

Those who see faith as the ground of their Righteousness assume God accepts imperfection ....... if that was the case Christ did not need to die!
And if our faith is the reason for our Justification then Jesus died for nothing , all that was needed was faith!

Tell me , was Thomas , yes doubting Thomas , saved because of his faith or because of the Righteouness that is revealed to faith" (Rom. 1:17)

no wonder some think that if they lose their faith they lose their salvation!!!

Did Peter lose his salvation when he denied Christ ........ of course not!

nowhere in scripture does it say we are saved BECAUSE OF OUR FAITH ......... we are saved through faith , and the Righteousness we have is not our own!

Rick Otto · Sep 30, 2007

Wow. What happened to your grip on context?
We believe because we're saved.
Believing is what born-again people do.
They then repent.
Salvation isn't based on the work we do to believe. the work we do in believing is based on our being saved.
You had it exactly backward.

LJSGM · Sep 30, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
NO !

for the reason that I have given over and over again ;

we are not saved BECAUSE we have faith or because we have works that complete our faith , we are saved BY GRACE through faith unto good works ........ Grace is opposed to merit of any kind.

Yes, so what you are saying is that God choses to have GRACE on those that have faith. This would still be a salvation based on God's grace.

LJSGM · Sep 30, 2007

Rick Otto said:
Wow. What happened to your grip on context?
We believe because we're saved.
Believing is what born-again people do.
They then repent.
Salvation isn't based on the work we do to believe. the work we do in believing is based on our being saved.
You had it exactly backward.

Read the verses again, and in context. They ask Jesus, what work should WE do? and Jesus tells them exactly what work they should do.

LJSGM · Sep 30, 2007

Can anyone give some verses that say that God is opposed to any sort of merit on our behalf?

cygnusx1 · Sep 30, 2007

LJSGM said:
Yes, so what you are saying is that God choses to have GRACE on those that have faith. This would still be a salvation based on God's grace.

Bad fruits do NOT make a tree bad , they merely make known that the tree IS bad. Men do bad things because they are bad.

Good works can never ever make a person good , they merely make known that a person is good. Men do good things because God is in them willing and working for His good pleasure.

Salvation is never because of faith , faith merely is the instrument God has chosen to give and use , faith is not the object but the evidence of things (salvation by Christ two thousand years ago ) hidden.

Wisdom is not created by wise decisions , wise decisions are just the evidence of wisdom.

Condemnation does not merely arise from personal sin , personal sin arises by being in a condemned state . (Romans 5)

Salvation does not merely arise from personal obedience of faith but by being placed in a justified state , which is unknown until evidenced by faith.

There is no contradiction between Paul and James , Paul is speaking about Justification by faith not works before God. A legal declaration.

James is talking about justification by faith before men .
A need for a public demonstration.

Paul emphasises God's Grace which saves through faith unto good works.

James emphasises the evidence of saving faith which is good works .

The writer to the Hebrews emphasises that faith is evidential not causative , faith is the evidence of things not seen , what is not seen in salvation ? our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) , true faith does not make this so , it merely shows it is so.

Justified often has the meaning of to make public , to make known , to declare what is true.

"But wisdom is justified of all her children." Luke 7:35

http://foru.ms/t3764969&page=8

cygnusx1 · Sep 30, 2007

LJSGM said:
Can anyone give some verses that say that God is opposed to any sort of merit on our behalf?

do you really think salvation can be merited ?

howabout all boasting is sin , let him who boasts , boast of the Lord!

Christians ought to get into the habit of saying " I , Yet NOT I , But Christ " Gal 2:20

Rick Otto · Sep 30, 2007

LJSGM said:
Read the verses again, and in context. They ask Jesus, what work should WE do? and Jesus tells them exactly what work they should do.

Context won't reveal that Jesus was correcting the false premise of their question, that there is ANYthing WE do to merit salvation, only mature intelligence can do that.

Jesus points it out to them, that belief is the work of God, because egocentric men & women automaticaly take credit for the few good things they do, when in fact, nothing done of themselves is better than filthy rags to God.

Don't only read it in context, read it with an open mind.
I'm tempted to not give you anti-merit verses.

cygnusx1 · Sep 30, 2007

LJSGM said:
Read the verses again, and in context. They ask Jesus, what work should WE do? and Jesus tells them exactly what work they should do.

the context is as clear as the words , the disciples want to know what they should be doing to be doing the works of God

Jesus answers them , believe on me , this is the work of God.

is there any higher work than believing on Christ ?

Is there anything anyone can do or should do that is more important , more VITAL than believing on the Son Of God?

then if you wish to be doing the "work of God" believe on Christ!

LJSGM · Sep 30, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
Bad fruits do NOT make a tree bad , they merely make known that the tree IS bad. Men do bad things because they are bad.

Yes, so you are saying that we are all bad trees, including you for all have sinned and fallen short, and all are at one time objects of God's wrath. I thought calvinist believed that God makes some good and some bad?

Good works can never ever make a person good , they merely make known that a person is good. Men do good things because God is in them willing and working for His good pleasure.

I don't believe faith is a "work," not the kind you think it is. God works in us after we've submitted ourselves to him, conforming us, he also sets the bait as well, and "draws" all men (kinda like fish )

Salvation is never because of faith , faith merely is the instrument God has chosen to give and use , faith is not the object but the evidence of things (salvation by Christ two thousand years ago ) hidden.

Well, that's not what the bible says about faith. In fact the fruit of the spirit is evidence of us becoming NEW CREATIONS. What is the fruit of the spirit? Love, joy, peace, patience....

Condemnation does not merely arise from personal sin , personal sin arises by being in a condemned state . (Romans 5)

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Sin came before the "condemned" state, and yes, the condemned state can produce more sin in way I guess.

Salvation does not merely arise from personal obedience of faith but by being placed in a justified state , which is unknown until evidenced by faith.

The whole chicken and egg thing again. It's through obedience that we are placed in a "justified" state.

Paul emphasises God's Grace which saves through faith unto good works.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get accross here. Sure it's through faith, and good works is the evidence.

James emphasises the evidence of saving faith which is good works .

yup

The writer to the Hebrews emphasises that faith is evidential not causative , faith is the evidence of things not seen , what is not seen in salvation ? our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) , true faith does not make this so , it merely shows it is so.

I'm not sure where you come up with these things?
Hebrews 11

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

This is not nessasarily belief in Christ faith that he is speaking of, but faith to do works. Faith to move mountians faith so to speak.

LJSGM · Sep 30, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
do you really think salvation can be merited ?

howabout all boasting is sin , let him who boasts , boast of the Lord!

Christians ought to get into the habit of saying " I , Yet NOT I , But Christ " Gal 2:20

Still didn't show scriptures.

How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

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