How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

Romans 8

27 And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God's will.

"I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." John 17:9


perfect alignment .

Titus 2

14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

If God's purpose in creating us was to create a people for himself that are his very own, eager to do what is good (this is His will), and you say that he forces us to do his will, then why create evil in the first place, why not make us all good, this would achieve his purpose more readily? But instead, you insist that God's purpose for making us evil was to punish us... for his glory. Can you post a verse or two that state this?

Rick Otto said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Otto

Are you sure your done?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



Actualy, the opposite of peace is war, but even calamity & disaster are "evils", tho it seem to you removed from God's personal liability on account of His using nature or others to perform it.

Before you accuse me of blasphemy(if it isn't already too late), Can you show me exactly where I used that or any other verse to accuse God of being evil?
Do you seriously believe God's having Joseph suffer the calamatous disaster (but not evil?) of being sold into slavery by his brothers, defines Him as evil?
Or His allowing Satan to enter The Garden?
Or His drowning an entire planet's population except for 8 souls?
Or having Joshua slaughter men women & children at Jericho?
Is that the only excuse you can offer to deny this & other scripture?
Do you still insist on judging God?
Do you only judge an action & completely dismiss or ignore motives to establish character?

Quote:
Same difference.
Point is, God hated Esau before Esau had even been born. Why? Because He planned to? Why? Because it served His purpose, which as He pointed out, 11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Predestination, not "free" will.
Hebrews 12
16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
Why did God hate Esau, perhaps because he was "godless"?
So it's OK with you that God hated Esau? That doesn't render Him evil?

Determinate counsel (predetination) results in foreknowlege of what is going to be created.
It was part of the plan... like the murder of His Son.

Easy. If you intend to create a hateful thing (for Godly good reason), it is no big leap to imagine hating it before making it.

Rather(more broadly) people are chosen by Him, not on the basis of what they are or do.

Gotta run...

Click to expand...

I guess we'll have to define what evil is, because there just might be a difference between "evil" and "bad". What if the act has a "good" outcome, then is it evil? Can you use "bad" to produce "good"? What if you do something bad to produce bad fruit? Is this then evil? Evil is better defined as something "unrighteous" which we know that God is completely righteous, and "bad" can be defined as an intentional or unintentional act or event occuring which is relative to each person as to the effect or feelings that it causes. When I speak of "evil" I speak of "unrighteousness." How do we know what righteousness is? Because God defines it, either by scriptures, or the law in our heart. Unrighteousness is usually defined as "sin." So, to sin is evil, and unrighteous, and we know that there is no sin in God, therefore, no evil, and we know that God is good, which is the opposite of evil. Who defines evil but God? The next question is, is God subject to his own rules of righteousness that he lays out for us? This is one big question. If he didn't do so, then he would be a hypocrite, which we know that God hates as well. The "hate" when he speaks of Esau, actually means "to love less" then Jacob. God is not evil if he hates evil. I hate evil, does that make me evil either? God loves the world, but hates the wickedness that is in man, and he tells us to love our neighbor, or our enemies, or our fellow men. God is not being hypocritical.

God creating something that he hates is not logical in any sense. I'm trying to reason with you here, because you are stuck in only a few pharagraphs of scriptures that people have taken out of context completely and no other scriptures to back it up. The context is ISRAEL, he is speaking of ISRAEL, who were the ELECT, who were the CHOSEN people. If you read on through to chapter 11, you will realize that what he is saying, that his purpose in election was that he gives mercy, not by birth, but by FAITH. Faith and belief are the themes throughout the whole bible. It's the Good News, that everyone is completely capable of choosing to believe in Him and repent, and be saved, and he calls EVERYONE.

Romans 8

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who[b] have been called according to his purpose.

1 Corinthians 2

9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"[a

James 1


12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

James 2


5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

He promised those who love him something?

Why does it not say he promised to those that HE LOVED if you believe that he created them that way and they have no will in the matter?

A man says to a rock "move," yet he knows that the rock can not move by it's self without him moving it, then what was the purpose in saying it? It was foolishness. Why does God insist on everyone to repent, yet he knows that no one can repent without him doing it for them? Like I said, foolishness. I'm not calling God foolish, I'm saying that this intrepretation and character that you have given him is incorrect. God tells us that we have "free will" everytime he tells us to do something, it means that we can do it and we should do it.

cygnusx1 said:

Romans 8

27 And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God's will.

"I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." John 17:9


perfect alignment .

Click to expand...

I like how at first "the world" meant only those that are his....

John 3


16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

But now it most definately doesn't.

"I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." John 17:9

This is good interpretation?

How does this verse prove calvinism? It only proves that he knew something about us before he created us. What does foreknowledge mean but knowing something that we did or would do?

A question for all. How do you come by salvation? The answer is in the word but what do you think?. I know the topic is not about salvation but the question brings a deeper understanding to what Calvin had seen and others are seeing now. The truth is in the answer.

hismessenger

4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Foreknowlege isthe result od "determinate counsel"...
Concordance THAT!
(Acts 2:23)

Rightglory said:

heymikey80,

I appreciate that you want to believe that Jesus prays for everyone. But that's pretty-much begging the question. And when he's saying he's not praying for the world but for those God has given ... that's two groups. The world. And those given Him.

Click to expand...

all were given Him, Everything has been given to Him. all things in heaven and earth, that does not exclude anyone. He saved all form the fall, from death and sin, and now calls all men to repentance. The Holy Spirit is actively working to convict all men of their sin.

Verses 24-26 He is praying for all the others He has not so far prayed for, Himself, His disciples, the Church and all the rest.(the World). The Bible is clear and is always aligned if we do not try to put other suppositions above it.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but no :24-26 are not "(the World)". They're "those who will believe in me" 20), "those whom you have given me" 24). By Christ's own statement they are mutually exclusive: "not the world but those you have given me" 9). The sole difference between the first and the second group are those who have already come to Jesus, and those "who will believe" in the future.

Neither is the world.

LJSGM said:

I like how at first "the world" meant only those that are his....

John 3


16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

But now it most definately doesn't.

"I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." John 17:9

This is good interpretation?

How does this verse prove calvinism? It only proves that he knew something about us before he created us. What does foreknowledge mean but knowing something that we did or would do?

Click to expand...

What does it mean when we read that Adam knew his wife?

nobdysfool said:

What does it mean when we read that Adam knew his wife?

Click to expand...

Yes, he did something with her in order to know her. It's another word for sex.

Hismessenger said:

A question for all. How do you come by salvation? The answer is in the word but what do you think?. I know the topic is not about salvation but the question brings a deeper understanding to what Calvin had seen and others are seeing now. The truth is in the answer.

hismessenger

Click to expand...

God gives mercy to those that believe in his Son Jesus, and repent of their sins before him. By faith.

Rick Otto said:

4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Foreknowlege isthe result od "determinate counsel"...
Concordance THAT!
(Acts 2:23)

Click to expand...

Yes, he predestined those he foreknew. How does this prove calvinism?

It would be a gross oversimplification to leave it at "sex".
Rather a loving intimacy is indicated as in Matthew where Jesus says "I never knew you" to some who had prophesied & cast out devils in His name.

I don't even try to prove "calvinism" whatever that is.
The only thing I have in common with Calvin is the "T.U.L.I.P."
I don't approve of his ecclesiology, especialy in the area of church discipline.
But predestination disproves the myth of "freedom" of our fallen wills.
And that supports Total sovereignity and Limited Atonement.
He predestined all of creation, good & bad:
Ac 2:23 - Show Context Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

LJSGM said:

Yes, he did something with her in order to know her. It's another word for sex.

Click to expand...

The idea is intimate relations. When Paul said that God Foreknew those who He predestined, he's not just saying that God knows who they are, or what they will do. It is a reference to the special love with which He chose His Elect, for His own reasons and not based on their foreseen actions, although He certainly knows those as well. If God chooses based on their foreseen actions, He is rewarding right behavior, and actually creates a paradox.

Rick Otto said:

But predestination disproves the myth of "freedom" of our fallen wills.
And that supports Total sovereignity and Limited Atonement.

Click to expand...

The problem is that you have yet to define predestination correctly, and have yet to give any scriptures to support your view of predestination.

Predestination could mean that he sets things up (experiences, relations, ect) in order to have the best good outcome. He won't force us, but he will direct our paths (based on the decisions that he knows we will make).

He predestined all of creation, good & bad:

Click to expand...

an assumption you have yet to prove

Ac 2:23 - Show Context Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Click to expand...

Yes, this says that God knew they would crucify him, He was not surprised by it. How does this prove calvinism?

nobdysfool said:

The idea is intimate relations. When Paul said that God Foreknew those who He predestined, he's not just saying that God knows who they are, or what they will do.

Click to expand...

This is based on what scripture? You've once again made an assumption here. Just because he loved us before we were made does NOT prove that this love is NOT based on who they are or what they will do.

It is a reference to the special love with which He chose His Elect, for His own reasons and not based on their foreseen actions, although He certainly knows those as well. If God chooses based on their foreseen actions, He is rewarding right behavior, and actually creates a paradox.

Click to expand...

He CHOSE them, it does not say HE CREATED THEM that way. CHOSEN=CHOICE. WE are his CHOICE, CHOICE is a DECISION, but what does he base his decision on?

What is this paradox that you speak of? Can you explain please.

LJSGM said:

Yes, this says that God knew they would crucify him, He was not surprised by it. How does this prove calvinism?

Click to expand...

What part of "determinate counsel" don't you get? The Crucifixion was planned before creation. It was predestined. The Father and the Son entered into a covenant whereby the Father would provide the Son a Bride, and the Son would give His life to redeem her.

God not only Foreknew the events of the Crucifixion, it was he would determined that it should occur in the first place. The whole idea of saying that "sure He knew it was going to happen, it didn't surprise Him" is to deny that He Himself ordained and predestined that it happen.

nobdysfool said:

What part of "determinate counsel" don't you get? The Crucifixion was planned before creation. It was predestined. The Father and the Son entered into a covenant whereby the Father would provide the Son a Bride, and the Son would give His life to redeem her.

God not only Foreknew the events of the Crucifixion, it was he would determined that it should occur in the first place. The whole idea of saying that "sure He knew it was going to happen, it didn't surprise Him" is to deny that He Himself ordained and predestined that it happen.

Click to expand...

Yes, he knew that these men would "willfully" crucify Him, knowing this, he set it all up so that they would have to make the decision. Instead, He could have taken Jesus right out of the situation and right up to heaven without even a hair on his head being harmed, but that would not have served His purpose. God allowed this evil thing to happen, but for the good of mankind.

Acts 2

23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

This does not prove that God made them that way (wicked) so that they would crucify him.

LJSGM said:

Yes, he knew that these men would "willfully" crucify Him, knowing this, he set it all up so that they would have to make the decision. Instead, He could have taken Jesus right out of the situation and right up to heaven without even a hair on his head being harmed, but that would not have served His purpose. God allowed this evil thing to happen, but for the good of mankind.

Acts 2

23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

This does not prove that God made them that way (wicked) so that they would crucify him.

Click to expand...

clearly Acts 2 and ACTS 4 preclude any notion of mere forknowledge or bare permission , God is actively engineering all things towards His own Glory.

Acts 4

[25] Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
[26] The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
[27] For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
[28] For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

LJSGM said:

Yes, he knew that these men would "willfully" crucify Him, knowing this, he set it all up so that they would have to make the decision. Instead, He could have taken Jesus right out of the situation and right up to heaven without even a hair on his head being harmed, but that would not have served His purpose. God allowed this evil thing to happen, but for the good of mankind.

Click to expand...

What you apparently aren't willing to accept is that it was necessary, and it was planned by God, not just permitted. If God had just caught Jesus up, there would be no redemption, no propitiation of sin, and therefore no salvation.

The whole purpose of the Son coming into the world in the form of a man, and in the likeness of man (but without sin, unlike man) was to die for the sins of His People, those whom the Father had chosen out of the world to be the Bride of His Son. It wasn't just "a possible outcome", it was the precisely planned outcome.

LJSGM said:

Acts 2:23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

This does not prove that God made them that way (wicked) so that they would crucify him.

Click to expand...

You are either not understanding what we're saying, or you're being deliberately obtuse. We did not say that "God made those men that way (wicked) so that they would crucify Him". What we have been saying all along is that God utilizes the wicked acts of men to bring about that which He has fore-ordained, and determined. Scripture has many references to this, and there is another thread dealing with 3 such scriptures in this same forum.

Rather than get into a sidetracking of the thread here, I suggest you read through the other thread.

The subject of this thread is "How then is the Calvinist refuted?" So far, no one has refuted the Calvinists, and the brother who started the thread is now a Calvinist. He wasn't when he started the thread.

nobdysfool said:

You are either not understanding what we're saying, or you're being deliberately obtuse. We did not say that "God made those men that way (wicked) so that they would crucify Him". What we have been saying all along is that God utilizes the wicked acts of men to bring about that which He has fore-ordained, and determined. Scripture has many references to this, and there is another thread dealing with 3 such scriptures in this same forum.

Click to expand...

What? I'm sorry, but you guys say one thing and then the opposite later. I don't think you're all in agreement here, perhaps you should talk it all out amongst yourselves, because someone JUST said that Men do not have FREE WILL! TAlking about OBTUSE. Please, will someone make more sense and explain calvinism to me? I am getting all of these different answers! HERE's one by Rick Otto not too long ago.

Rick OttoIt would be a gross oversimplification to leave it at "sex".
Rather a loving intimacy is indicated as in Matthew where Jesus says "I never knew you" to some who had prophesied & cast out devils in His name.

I don't even try to prove "calvinism" whatever that is.
The only thing I have in common with Calvin is the "T.U.L.I.P."
I don't approve of his ecclesiology, especialy in the area of church discipline.
But predestination disproves the myth of "freedom" of our fallen wills.
And that supports Total sovereignity and Limited Atonement.
He predestined all of creation, good & bad:
Ac 2:23 - Show Context Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: