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If God is not "bound" by the will of man, so that they decide their own "fate," then you must be a universalist? Because we know that God's will is that ALL men be saved.I use to reject Calvinism too. Now I treasure a God who is not bound by the will of man.
I would think it's a much wider question, as Paul's description is extremely wide, covering myriad examples of choosing -- can God still attribute blame on people if God is doing the hardening? This is similar to the very wide hypothetical question Paul asks in the start of Romans 3.
I'd invite you to take a look at Romans 11:28-29.As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.It's not easy to navigate this verse from any view, but it's definitely saying some of the hardening in Israel occurred for the sake of bringing in Gentiles, but regarding election they're beloved.
And in fact, y'hafta put the entirety of Romans 11:11ff in that context, because Paul explicitly states that this hardening is not to the point of falling:So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
So here the issue isn't gaining or losing your salvation -- it's gaining or losing what they were seeking -- righteousness -- and that required God's mercy to receive. To flout those things that are also required -- faith, for instance -- would defy God's mercy a different way and cut you off at a tighter core. But of course it definitely does require continuance in faith -- perseverance in faith -- for those who have yet received God's mercy. Losing that faith definitely does cut you off from God's mercy.
I've few qualms about saying that people who are in church and who have fervor and strong emotions and deep convictions even, may yet drop out of their faith. We stand on the same grounds of faith, grace, and God's choosing that the Jewish people do. It works the same. Our hardness of heart can occur at different levels, and that hardness can thwart our attaining God's righteousness. God's mercy is thus required to soften our hearts, and not harden our hearts.
On which we'd agree. However, we disagree on what that very good basis is.
I don't see the necessity. I can make the case flatly. "Why does God still find fault?" Paul doesn't make the case, "Why does God still find fault with the Jews?"You could make this case, IF all of the Jew's hearts were hardened, which they were not.
Just a simple look at the Esau & Jacob example shows this isn't what Paul is getting at. "Before they were born or had done anything ..."Only the Jews who continued in unbelief, had their hearts hardened. The rest who believed that Christ was the messiah were saved and his elect. Pharaoh was an example of this hardening. Was it because of this hardening that Pharaoh was wicked? NO, it was because of his unbelief in the God of the hebrews. The hardening occured after he rejected God. God then used him as an object of his wrath. What was this hardening? He would not let God's people go, no matter what sign and wonders and warnings that God gave him.
I used the ESV, but you can find the same phraseology in the New American Standard. Each is a word-meaning translation. Or a USB or Nestle/Aland. The translation you're using is injecting "beyond recovery", it's not in the Greek.I'll have to requote that Romans 11:11, because I don't know what version you used.11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!The meaning's a little different, isn't it? He's saying that they can recover from it if they so chose to believe. But they continue in their unbelief.
Unbelieving, yet elect for the sake of their fathers. Those are interesting cross purposes at this point.Romans 11:20 But they were broken off because of unbelief
mmm. So in your view Spirit == righteousness == salvation == promise. If you make everything the same, then nothing will come out any differently.righteousness has everything to do with salvation, and gaining/losing it.
Yes, well, new birth by the Holy Spirit generates faith in God, which gains a declaration that you're righteous before God.Gaining a "righteousness from God" aka the Holy Spirit, makes you born again,
No. For were your last phrase true, then no one would believe in Jesus. It doesn't work in this order simply because no one can have a faith that saves without the Spirit of God.It is through faith/belief in Jesus, and by repentance, that you recieve the Holy Spirit/righteousness from God, which gives you a new heart and desire to do right, or to be righteous which is not possible through our own self strivings because we have by nature a wicked heart.
Actually Paul did it in a matter of a sentence or two. 1 Cor 15. But then for him the words weren't all fused together. He had particular ideas in mind, it wasn't one blob of gospelrighteoussalvationspiritpromisefaith.The book of Revelations points out that we will be judged by what we have done. It's hard to go through the whole gospel in a few paragraphs though.
So I take it people just harden their own hearts, and will themselves into hardness?Once again, God only hardens sometimes those who reject him, or do not believe.
God's will. I rely on Him, being a Christian.What is this good basis that you believe in then?
Are you referring to 2 Peter 3:9? You need to read that verse in context, rather than lifting it out of its context. Peter is speaking to the elect, of the elect which are yet to believe.If God is not "bound" by the will of man, so that they decide their own "fate," then you must be a universalist? Because we know that God's will is that ALL men be saved.
I don't see the necessity. I can make the case flatly. "Why does God still find fault?" Paul doesn't make the case, "Why does God still find fault with the Jews?"
Paul's examples of hardening include Gentiles. So ... it makes no sense to think this argument is being limited to Jewish people in the first place.
But it's even worse than that. Paul's answer obliterates any thought that Paul is retracting back to, "Oh, He's only hardening those who didn't have faith." No, God intentionally formed them and hardened them. It's what the passage says. It's what Paul is arguing. It's just not what you're arguing.
Just a simple look at the Esau & Jacob example shows this isn't what Paul is getting at. "Before they were born or had done anything ..."
I used the ESV, but you can find the same phraseology in the New American Standard. Each is a word-meaning translation. Or a USB or Nestle/Aland. The translation you're using is injecting "beyond recovery", it's not in the Greek.
"Did they stumble so as to fall?" That's what Paul wrote. I'm sticking with what he wrote.
Unbelieving, yet elect for the sake of their fathers. Those are interesting cross purposes at this point.
mmm. So in your view Spirit == righteousness == salvation == promise. If you make everything the same, then nothing will come out any differently.
Yes, well, new birth by the Holy Spirit generates faith in God, which gains a declaration that you're righteous before God
No. For were your last phrase true, then no one would believe in Jesus. It doesn't work in this order simply because no one can have a faith that saves without the Spirit of God.
Actually Paul did it in a matter of a sentence or two. 1 Cor 15. But then for him the words weren't all fused together. He had particular ideas in mind, it wasn't one blob of gospelrighteoussalvationspiritpromisefaith.
So I take it people just harden their own hearts, and will themselves into hardness?But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. Rom 2:5
God's will. I rely on Him, being a Christian.
Please tell me then, why doesn't God want all men to be saved if this is what you believe?Are you referring to 2 Peter 3:9? You need to read that verse in context, rather than lifting it out of its context. Peter is speaking to the elect, of the elect which are yet to believe.
Please tell me then, why doesn't God want all men to be saved if this is what you believe?
This is strange because this verse contradicts what you just said.why ?
to declare God's rightousness .
Romans 3
1 - What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
2 - Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 - For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 - God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 - But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 - God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 - For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Life is precious to God, period.Just like He didn't "want" His Son to die.
So it realy doesn't matter if you try to isolate who is being talked about because all you need is one example to show He didn't intend what He would've preferred.
He wants "all men", in the sense of "all kinds" as opposed to the then-established notion that "salvation is of the Jews" only.
You have to get over years of humanistic brain-washing to realize that not every human life is precious in God's eyes to understand first that all creation is to glorify Him (not an ego trip - He deserves it), and all things work for the good , of those who love Him, not to those who don't.
If He had planned to have mercy on everyone, His justice would never be eternaly witnessed.
This is strange because this verse contradicts what you just said.
Paul says that "should we sin to make God's righteousness stand out?" he says NO. So, in saying that this is the purpose that God created us, that through our sin, his righteousness is more well know/greater is not the right conclusion.
I don't agree .
human responsibility does not counter God Sovereignty , sin does have a use , it provides a background for displays God's Grace mercy and JUSTICE ......... I will ask you why did God permit sin ?
the fact that God uses sin to display His grace Mercy and Justice no more qualifies for sinners sinning to aid God (God forbid) than that Divine prophecy should be aided by human misguided lunacy.
God does have a purpose for sin .
Romans 9
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Please tell me then, why doesn't God want all men to be saved if this is what you believe?
Yes, but it doesn't mean that this was the purpose of making men! This is a faulty line of reasoning.#666
Predestined for a non-Calvinist.
Is God glorified by the punishment of the wicked? YES or NO ???
Yes, but it doesn't mean that this was the purpose of making men! This is a faulty line of reasoning.
What I think is a faulty line of reasoning is to think that God created man for one purpose, and because man was stupid, God has to go through all of this other stuff to finally get things back to the way He wanted them to begin with.Yes, but it doesn't mean that this was the purpose of making men! This is a faulty line of reasoning.
Not really; there is non-agreement between Calvinistic members here on many points.Cygnus said:so you testify that Calvinists speak with one voice !
If you wish to think that, it's OK with me.Fru has continually and majestically overturned every fallacious refutation of yours ben , that is why you will no longer debate with him!!!
And there is verse 32, "God ...has mercy on ALL".LJSGM said:Romans 9
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
who is it that Paul is talking about God hardening their hearts?
Romans 11
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
so what you are saying is that God made men in order to put on a great show.Yes.
Would you say it could be a reason for making some?
Orr does His justice and holiness take a back seat to other attributes?
I'll never understand how this can be perceived to mean:NBF said:Are you referring to 2 Peter 3:9? You need to read that verse in context, rather than lifting it out of its context. Peter is speaking to the elect, of the elect which are yet to believe.
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