How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

the next verses comfirm what I just said.

Romans 9

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."[k] 29It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."

He is again speaking of Israel and gentiles.

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

Romans 10

1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Going back to my first post, on what basis does God chose people? Who is the elect? Who is God's loved one? Those who believe/have faith.

5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

Romans 10

16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[h] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."[i] 19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."[j] 20And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."[k] 21But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."[l]

Need I say more here?

drstevej · Jul 21, 2007

LJSGM, please save post #666 for Ben.

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[a]? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."[b] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[c]

Yes, not by works, but by faith! Grace through Faith, isn't this what the rest of the scriptures speak about? How am I denying the doctrines of Grace?

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

I think I'm almost done! hopefully!

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches

geeezzz, Israel, Israel, it's all about Israel! Who would have thought it?

drstevej · Jul 21, 2007

I use to reject Calvinism too. Now I treasure a God who is not bound by the will of man.

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Yes, you can be cut off! If you don't continue in Faith.

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

He hardened them because he has a great plan of salvation!

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

what a great God!

there, I think I'm done, any questions?

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

I'm sorry, I forgot to include the question, what were the Jews (the ones in unbelief anyways) Hearts hardened to do? To Crucify the Christ

heymikey80 · Jul 21, 2007

6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[b] 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

To me the essential point of this verse is that some of natural Israel is not true Israel, that is the children of God.

9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badin order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsshe was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

And here, the children of God are those God made promises to. Again, not natural Israel, but those God made promises to.

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Here Paul jumps the track. Pharaoh is a picture of God's election -- not a Jew. God can harden anyone He wants, including Gentiles. So God can have mercy on anyone He wants, including Gentiles.

God's choosing is based on who He wants to have mercy on.

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

See that v. 16 in there? If faith or belief is from the human will, Paul is saying, "Well, no, God's choosing doesn't depend on that." Remember Isaac? No will or exertion there. How about Jacob? No will or exertion. Now it may be that you think of faith as no action of the human will. That's actually a view that comes in from Calvin himself even. And it will be interesting to put all the pieces of Scripture in place and see what you come up with. I may have a bit of time to do that, I'll try to hit some other points of discrepancy as well.

heymikey80 · Jul 21, 2007

LJSGM said:
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

"Then why does God still blame us" he is speaking about the Jews' heart being hardened, them making the excuse that they can no longer be to blame.

I would think it's a much wider question, as Paul's description is extremely wide, covering myriad examples of choosing -- can God still attribute blame on people if God is doing the hardening? This is similar to the very wide hypothetical question Paul asks in the start of Romans 3.

LJSGM said:
but God is not speaking about hardening the true "elect", those that he loves, but his enemies. The pharaoh was God's enemy, but why did he not destroy his kingdom right away? Instead, he raised him up to become a powerful leader, and it was for a purpose.

I'd invite you to take a look at Romans 11:28-29.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

It's not easy to navigate this verse from any view, but it's definitely saying some of the hardening in Israel occurred for the sake of bringing in Gentiles, but regarding election they're beloved.
And in fact, y'hafta put the entirety of Romans 11:11ff in that context, because Paul explicitly states that this hardening is not to the point of falling:

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

So here the issue isn't gaining or losing your salvation -- it's gaining or losing what they were seeking -- righteousness -- and that required God's mercy to receive. To flout those things that are also required -- faith, for instance -- would defy God's mercy a different way and cut you off at a tighter core. But of course it definitely does require continuance in faith -- perseverance in faith -- for those who have yet received God's mercy. Losing that faith definitely does cut you off from God's mercy.

I've few qualms about saying that people who are in church and who have fervor and strong emotions and deep convictions even, may yet drop out of their faith. We stand on the same grounds of faith, grace, and God's choosing that the Jewish people do. It works the same. Our hardness of heart can occur at different levels, and that hardness can thwart our attaining God's righteousness. God's mercy is thus required to soften our hearts, and not harden our hearts.

LJSGM said:
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g]

This doesn't say that he choses people at random and for no good reason, and hardens people for no good reason either and we shouldn't question his odd ways...the contrary. He has very good reason!

On which we'd agree. However, we disagree on what that very good basis is.

LJSGM said:
why then did he harden israel?

3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

You're saying this is the reason why God hardened Israel. But put in context, that's not what Paul said. Paul said it's the reason why he's praying that they might be saved. Israel has zeal, but it's wrongly placed, and so they didn't submit to God's righteousness. They need to be saved.

Brothers, my hearts desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to Gods righteousness.

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

heymikey80 said:
To me the essential point of this verse is that some of natural Israel is not true Israel, that is the children of God.

yes, this is what I said.

And here, the children of God are those God made promises to. Again, not natural Israel, but those God made promises to.

Romans 4

16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringnot only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Here Paul jumps the track. Pharaoh is a picture of God's election -- not a Jew. God can harden anyone He wants, including Gentiles. So God can have mercy on anyone He wants, including Gentiles.

The most sound interpretation would not include one that "jumps the track." Look at it again.

Pharaoh was NOT one God's elect, this is , Pharaoh was an object of God's wrath.

God's choosing is based on who He wants to have mercy on.

Click to expand...

Yes, but he makes it clear that HE Choses to have mercy on those that believe/ have faith.

See that v. 16 in there? If faith or belief is from the human will, Paul is saying, "Well, no, God's choosing doesn't depend on that." Remember Isaac? No will or exertion there. How about Jacob? No will or exertion. Now it may be that you think of faith as no action of the human will. That's actually a view that comes in from Calvin himself even. And it will be interesting to put all the pieces of Scripture in place and see what you come up with. I may have a bit of time to do that, I'll try to hit some other points of discrepancy as well.

verse 16 actually means that Man can not save himself by works or desires, the only thing that saves him is God's mercy.

LJSGM · Jul 21, 2007

heymikey80 said:
I would think it's a much wider question, as Paul's description is extremely wide, covering myriad examples of choosing -- can God still attribute blame on people if God is doing the hardening? This is similar to the very wide hypothetical question Paul asks in the start of Romans 3.

I'd invite you to take a look at Romans 11:28-29.
As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
It's not easy to navigate this verse from any view, but it's definitely saying some of the hardening in Israel occurred for the sake of bringing in Gentiles, but regarding election they're beloved.

And in fact, y'hafta put the entirety of Romans 11:11ff in that context, because Paul explicitly states that this hardening is not to the point of falling:
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
So here the issue isn't gaining or losing your salvation -- it's gaining or losing what they were seeking -- righteousness -- and that required God's mercy to receive. To flout those things that are also required -- faith, for instance -- would defy God's mercy a different way and cut you off at a tighter core. But of course it definitely does require continuance in faith -- perseverance in faith -- for those who have yet received God's mercy. Losing that faith definitely does cut you off from God's mercy.

I've few qualms about saying that people who are in church and who have fervor and strong emotions and deep convictions even, may yet drop out of their faith. We stand on the same grounds of faith, grace, and God's choosing that the Jewish people do. It works the same. Our hardness of heart can occur at different levels, and that hardness can thwart our attaining God's righteousness. God's mercy is thus required to soften our hearts, and not harden our hearts.

On which we'd agree. However, we disagree on what that very good basis is.

You're saying this is the reason why God hardened Israel. But put in context, that's not what Paul said. Paul said it's the reason why he's praying that they might be saved. Israel has zeal, but it's wrongly placed, and so they didn't submit to God's righteousness. They need to be saved.
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

I gotta go, I'll look at this later though

God bless.

heymikey80 · Jul 21, 2007

LJSGM said:
yes, this is what I said.

Then granting that, the idea of calling Israel a "real elect" isn't really that valid a point. They're not specifically the elect, it is just that in natural terms the promises are made to them. Because if you look at this logically, there's no correspondence between "Jew" and elect.

Some Jews are elect.
Some Jews are not elect.
Some non-Jews are elect.
Some non-Jews are not elect.

LJSGM said:
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Well, one slight problem there. "the promise" is interjected by the translators. Can you cite something more ... explicit? Because it's very easy to point out, Paul could mean the children of Abraham, or righteousness, is by faith. And then the question would revolve back to you.

LJSGM said:
The most sound interpretation would not include one that "jumps the track." Look at it again.

I look at it again.

Pharaoh is not a Jew.
The "one may say to me" is not a Jew.
The Gentiles of 9:23-25 are not Jews

LJSGM said:
Pharaoh was NOT one God's elect, this is , Pharaoh was an object of God's wrath.

ROFL! Yes, I agree, but if you check Paul is also talking about hardening in the same breath. If you're saying Paul is focused on electing and hardening Jewish people in this line, then God's hardening a Gentile doesn't make any sense.

LJSGM said:
Yes, but he makes it clear that HE Choses to have mercy on those that believe/ have faith.

Agreed. But you're saying He chooses people because they have faith. We're saying people have faith because He chooses them.

LJSGM said:
verse 16 actually means that Man can not save himself by works or desires, the only thing that saves him is God's mercy.

Yes. OK, I don't think you're saying the man with faith has no desire to believe, is that right or wrong? Does the man with faith have a desire to believe? On what basis does God have mercy on him? Or is God unyielding to a person's desire to believe in Him?

How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

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"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

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"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

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Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

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