How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

cygnusx1 · Jun 30, 2007

Rightglory said:
Cygnus,

Yes, but no one does it alone. I have never even come close to saying we do it alone. But God, clearly in all of Scripture, puts the resposibility on man, not God. He provides, we accept. It is a gift, all things we have are a gift from God. But, relative to faith, it is all your responsibility.
I need preserving as well, but it is not monergistic compelled upon me. I was not created to be a tool, an object of manipulation, but was created in His Image to be free, communal and unique. Your view actually denies scripture from the very beginning of Genesis. Adam obviously fails your test of predestination and God compelling union. You have yet to show anywhere from scripture that man lost his nature, or the Image of God in that nature.

I didn't ask God to preserve me , so I did not co-operate , I am preserved by Grace , (you can keep using the word force if it makes you feel good) and the reason , THE ONLY resaon I am persevearing is because I am preserved .

You have continued to show a real ignorant mind over what Calvinists believe , 99% of your postings are what you presume others believe , in order to attempt to Lord it over them , it has very little to do with the subject , try being objective and don't go looking fo a fight , it helps preserve (great word) the peace here, Amen!

Rightglory · Jun 30, 2007

Cygnus,

I didn't ask God to preserve me , so I did not co-operate , I am preserved by Grace , (you can keep using the word force if it makes you feel good) and the reason , THE ONLY resaon I am persevearing is because I am preserved .

Yes, but all men are being preserved as well. All were saved by grace, but very few are accepting that gift of Grace and being saved THROUGH FAITH. It is our faith that needs the cooperative work of persevering. Faith is inherent in man as a human being, created in God's Image. It is that which God uses to call all men to repentance. His Holy Spirit was poured out upon all flesh. The Holy Spirit actively works in all of creation to bring souls to God. None are excluded. All are created in His Image and of incalculable worth.

You are actually correct that faith is monergistically placed in man, but you even limit that to some, rather than all human beings who have all been created in His Image, to be free, communal and unique. You have made most of mankind inhuman, no longer in the Image of God. Your view denies that God freed mankind from that bondage to death and sin, but reserved it only for some, yet cannot explain how all men will rise on the last day.

You have continued to show a real ignorant mind over what Calvinists believe , 99% of your postings are what you presume others believe , in order to attempt to Lord it over them , it has very little to do with the subject , try being objective and don't go looking fo a fight , it helps preserve (great word) the peace here, Amen!

I know a lot more than what you think which is also why I know that it is incorrect. What they believe is not scriptural as it has been accepted, believed and practiced by the consensus of all believers since the beginning. The best you can do is show what Calvin believed and understood and what you personally accept and believe from your own personal interpretation.

Are we contesting for the Gospel or for Calvinism? If for Calvinism, then all forms of faith are as equal as any other. It is simply an alternative view, and a person's view and interpretation of what the Gospel means, rather than as Christ delivered and preserved by the Holy Spirit, as promised.

cygnusx1 · Jun 30, 2007

Rightglory said:
Cygnus,

Yes, but all men are being preserved as well. All were saved by grace, but very few are accepting that gift of Grace and being saved THROUGH FAITH. It is our faith that needs the cooperative work of persevering. Faith is inherent in man as a human being, created in God's Image. It is that which God uses to call all men to repentance. His Holy Spirit was poured out upon all flesh. The Holy Spirit actively works in all of creation to bring souls to God. None are excluded. All are created in His Image and of incalculable worth.

You are actually correct that faith is monergistically placed in man, but you even limit that to some, rather than all human beings who have all been created in His Image, to be free, communal and unique. You have made most of mankind inhuman, no longer in the Image of God. Your view denies that God freed mankind from that bondage to death and sin, but reserved it only for some, yet cannot explain how all men will rise on the last day.

I know a lot more than what you think which is also why I know that it is incorrect. What they believe is not scriptural as it has been accepted, believed and practiced by the consensus of all believers since the beginning. The best you can do is show what Calvin believed and understood and what you personally accept and believe from your own personal interpretation.

Are we contesting for the Gospel or for Calvinism? If for Calvinism, then all forms of faith are as equal as any other. It is simply an alternative view, and a person's view and interpretation of what the Gospel means, rather than as Christ delivered and preserved by the Holy Spirit, as promised.

well these are your views they are certainly not mine , and they are certainly not many none-Calvinists here.

Just make an effort to stick on topic , you don't have to keep reminding everyone that you believe your church is infallible or that it is the only Church ........ and you don't have to presume all the time what others are thinking , that kinda prevents any meanibngful dialogue , like if every time I addressed you I began by saying you have no way of finding the truth by personal study because you always think you have it ..... kinda forbids any further discussion , unless that is what you wish .

Rick Otto · Jun 30, 2007

"What they believe is not scriptural as it has been accepted, believed and practiced by the consensus of all believers since the beginning."
Is that a book title - "The Consensus of All Believers"?
I thought all a consensus was, is a collection of private interpretations that happen to agree.

I thought that to construct an apostacy, you have to do is to fool all of the people some of the time, or at least fool some of the people all of the time.

frumanchu · Jun 30, 2007

Ben johnson said:
I look forward to "Brightlights" answering post #461. What answer can Calvinism give for that?

You already know. You've been given the answer several times. Once again, I will explain it.

Those who Jesus said "are entering" --- are they really entering? Or is there some way to understand "not REALLY entering"?

Jesus said, "those, you stop --- you shut off the kingdom of Heaven from men". Are they stopped? Is Heaven shut off? Or is there some way to perceive "not really"?

Underlying here is the notion that if the understanding "shut off the Kingdom" is anything other than your interpretation (ie-that the Pharisees frustrate God's will for the salvation of these men and overcome any elective purpose He might have), then it's "not really." This creates a false dilemma from the start that feed the repeated (and false) claim that we Calvinists claim Scripture doesn't really say what it says.

The way of the Pharisees is a different path than the way of salvation. Regardless of the issue of predestination and its effect upon man's decisions, the fact remains that to follow the path of the Pharisees is to diverge from the one true way of salvation.

As Matthew Henry describes it:

They were sworn enemies to the gospel of Christ, and consequently to the salvation of the souls of men (v. 13); They shut up the kingdom of heaven against men, that is, they did all they could to keep people from believing in Christ, and so entering into his kingdom. Christ came to open the kingdom of heaven, that is, to lay open for us a new and living way into it, to bring men to be subjects of that kingdom. Now the scribes and Pharisees, who sat in Mosess seat, and pretended to the key of knowledge, ought to have contributed their assistance herein, by opening those scriptures of the Old Testament which pointed at the Messiah and his kingdom, in their true and proper sense; they that undertook to expound Moses and the prophets should have showed the people how they testified of Christ; that Daniels weeks were expiring, the sceptre was departed from Judah, and therefore now was the time for the Messiahs appearing. Thus they might have facilitated that great work, and have helped thousands to heaven; but, instead of this, they shut up the kingdom of heaven; they made it their business to press the ceremonial law, which was now in the vanishing, to suppress the prophecies, which were now in the accomplishing, and to beget and nourish up in the minds of the people prejudices against Christ and his doctrine." -Matthew Henry's commentary : On the whole Bible (Mt 23:13).

Some say, "Well, Jesus didn't say 'shut off FOREVER'; if they're really predestined they'll enter at a future time when He has CHOSEN." But look at verse 15 --- those who are "stopped/shut-off" --- Jesus says, "You make them twice a child of Hell than YOU are!"

Is there any way that "a child of Hell", could be considered "elect, and shut off for NOW but they'll enter LATER"?

Ben, you yourself were a child of hell before you believed. As we just discussed, adoption as sons of God is a privilege only believers enjoy (John 1:12-13). Thus it stands to reason that, though elect, you yourself were a child of hell until you believed, just as we all were.

To believe otherwise, are you saying that the Pharisees...mere men...had the power to thwart God's purposes in seeking the salvation of men? Are you saying that just as the gates of Hell shall not prevail against Christ's church, the gates of Heaven will not prevail against the Pharisees?

Besides, doesn't "enter in the future", really impose "not REALLY shut off (if they're elect)"?

Only if you force this passage to be something it clearly was not intended to be: a commentary on the mutability of God's elective purpose.

Were that the case, Jesus should not be saying "Woe to you, Pharisees" but rather "Woe is me!"

Rightglory · Jun 30, 2007

Cygnus,

well these are your views they are certainly not mine , and they are certainly not many none-Calvinists here.

No one ever said they must be your view. You were created free and redeemed just so you could believe what you wanted to believe relative to salvation.
That the faith of the Fathers as handed down, preserved by the Holy Spirit is not what you accept is your choice. That there are not many on this board is of no consequence either. The Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways. You may yet come to see the fullness of that faith, once delivered.
Many, in fact most of the world, has rejected that Great Mercy of God.

Just make an effort to stick on topic , you don't have to keep reminding everyone that you believe your church is infallible or that it is the only Church ........ and you don't have to presume all the time what others are thinking , that kinda prevents any meanibngful dialogue , like if every time I addressed you I began by saying you have no way of finding the truth by personal study because you always think you have it ..... kinda forbids any further discussion , unless that is what you wish .

So, you don't believe that Christ with the Holy Spirit delivered ALL Truth to the Apostles. That Christ is that Church. Believers are members of that Body, as a whole they are that Body, ONE. ONE faith, once delivered. Preserved as promised from the beginning.
So, you doubt, you don't believe. I have no control over you or what you believe. But if you are going to contest for the Truth as delivered, then be prepared to defend as Truth, not just another view. I am not interested in one of many thousands if one cannot show that it is that Truth once delivered to the saints.
Study leads to Truth, not develop it as whole new doctrine. It was once given, we don't need to reinvent the wheel with every generation. It was universally given, for all, for all time.
If you cannot show it as the Truth, and can only present it as your opinion, it becomes worthless. Your opinion of what you think Scipture means has no more and no less authority that the next guy, who can claim the same. Why do you even think that the method of sola scriptura is falling in on itself with thousands of interpretations of what each individual wants to make for his own faith. Each has just as much authority as the next guy. You have no basis whatsoever, even though you claim the Bible as your authority. The Bible obviously is not working, or Christianity is a hoax, a opium of the people, as Marx said. It really does not matter what you believe, just believe in something and if it comes from the Bible, that makes it scriptural.

You have much more faith in your own ability to interpret, than faith that the Holy Spirit has in fact preserved both the Gospel and His Church in time.
You treat the Bible as George Washington Carver looked upon the peanut. See how many different products one can get from just one little nut.

frumanchu · Jun 30, 2007

brightlights said:
For the record, I started this thread about two years ago and have since become pretty convinced of the doctrine of election and of the tennents of Calvinism.

Excellent! If you get a chance and haven't already done so, please stop by this thread and share your story!

Ben johnson · Jul 1, 2007

NBF said:
Show-winning cars have been built from much less than what condition that Plymouth was in. Don't underestimate these guys. Nearly every body panel and part for these cars are still available in the booming aftermarket auto parts biz. Pick up a copy of Street Rodder and look at the ads throughout the magazine. I wish I still had the old '39 Chevy pickup my folks had on the farm when I was growing up....

It's all a matter of "who thinks it's worth it". There's a sentiment of "leave it alone, it's part of history". Rather a worthless part, imo. I would like to see it restored.

Never heard about "Center of the Universe"; I'll hafta check it out next time I'm downtown. Do you know about the tunnels?

RickOtto said:
Whose consensus?

"What they believe is not scriptural as it has been accepted, believed and practiced by the consensus of all believers since the beginning."
Is that a book title - "The Consensus of All Believers"?
I thought all a consensus was, is a collection of private interpretations that happen to agree.

I thought that to construct an apostasy, you have to do is to fool all of the people some of the time, or at least fool some of the people all of the time.

Luckily we have the Scripture to confirm or refute whatever "concensus" had persisted.

...like the idea that "some men have no opportunity to ever become saved"...

Rick Otto · Jul 1, 2007

"Luck".

Ben johnson · Jul 1, 2007

Rick said:
Yeah, funny thing, that...

"Luck".

Yup, sure is lucky to be one o' them "few-sovereign-elect".

...'stead o' one of them other guys....

cygnusx1 · Jul 1, 2007

Rightglory said:
Cygnus,

No one ever said they must be your view. You were created free and redeemed just so you could believe what you wanted to believe relative to salvation.
That the faith of the Fathers as handed down, preserved by the Holy Spirit is not what you accept is your choice. That there are not many on this board is of no consequence either. The Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways. You may yet come to see the fullness of that faith, once delivered.
Many, in fact most of the world, has rejected that Great Mercy of God.

So, you don't believe that Christ with the Holy Spirit delivered ALL Truth to the Apostles. That Christ is that Church. Believers are members of that Body, as a whole they are that Body, ONE. ONE faith, once delivered. Preserved as promised from the beginning.
So, you doubt, you don't believe. I have no control over you or what you believe. But if you are going to contest for the Truth as delivered, then be prepared to defend as Truth, not just another view. I am not interested in one of many thousands if one cannot show that it is that Truth once delivered to the saints.
Study leads to Truth, not develop it as whole new doctrine. It was once given, we don't need to reinvent the wheel with every generation. It was universally given, for all, for all time.
If you cannot show it as the Truth, and can only present it as your opinion, it becomes worthless. Your opinion of what you think Scipture means has no more and no less authority that the next guy, who can claim the same. Why do you even think that the method of sola scriptura is falling in on itself with thousands of interpretations of what each individual wants to make for his own faith. Each has just as much authority as the next guy. You have no basis whatsoever, even though you claim the Bible as your authority. The Bible obviously is not working, or Christianity is a hoax, a opium of the people, as Marx said. It really does not matter what you believe, just believe in something and if it comes from the Bible, that makes it scriptural.

You have much more faith in your own ability to interpret, than faith that the Holy Spirit has in fact preserved both the Gospel and His Church in time.
You treat the Bible as George Washington Carver looked upon the peanut. See how many different products one can get from just one little nut.

is this your opinion RG ?

Do you speak on behalf of the Church ?

nobdysfool · Jul 1, 2007

Ben said:
It's all a matter of "who thinks it's worth it". There's a sentiment of "leave it alone, it's part of history". Rather a worthless part, imo. I would like to see it restored.

Never heard about "Center of the Universe"; I'll hafta check it out next time I'm downtown. Do you know about the tunnels?

Never heard about the tunnels. The Center of the Universe is down by the train station, if I remember correctly. You can Google it. There's a tall obelisk-like structure, and a brick plaza, that slopes away from a central point all around. When you stand on the center (on a little metal disk), and speak, you'll hear an echo of your voice, like you were in an echo chamber. It only happens when you stand on that exact spot, if you move any way off of it, there is no echo. Check it out, it's cool. I'm surprised you don't know about it, living there. That was one of the first places I visited with my lady-friend when I visited Tulsa back in 1999.

We also attended a CCM concert with some CCM artists from the 70's, Phil Keaggy, Randy Stonehill, DeGarmo & Key, Bryan Duncan (from Sweet Comfort Band), and others. It was a great concert!

nobdysfool · Jul 1, 2007

Ben said:
Luckily we have the Scripture to confirm or refute whatever "concensus" had persisted.

...like the idea that "some men have no opportunity to ever become saved"...

Yeah, like the American Indians, or the Pacific Islanders, or the Ancient Chinese, or the Aztecs, the Maya, etc. Are you seriously going to tell us you believe they had the opportunity to be saved without Christ?

nobdysfool · Jul 1, 2007

Ben said:
It's all a matter of "who thinks it's worth it". There's a sentiment of "leave it alone, it's part of history". Rather a worthless part, imo. I would like to see it restored.

As would I. What kind of history is it representing in its present condition? That Detroit didn't build cars to last in those days? Not a very good historic fact to commemorate, don'tcha think? the car can be restored, if someone wants to take the time and spend the money. It was brand-new when it went in. It's still brand-new, just doesn't look like it. As it is, it's the rustiest, nastiest, ugliest brand new car ever. Some might argue that this is what happens when you don't take care of your new car.....

Did you know it's possible to buy a "brand new" 1932 Ford Coupe (3-window, or 5-window), or Roadster? Made with all new parts? It IS possible!

Rightglory · Jul 1, 2007

Cygnus,

is this your opinion RG ?

No, it is a common view held by millions for centuries.

[/quote]Do you speak on behalf of the Church ?[/quote] Yes, See Matt 28: 16-20

cygnusx1 · Jul 1, 2007

Rightglory said:
Cygnus,

No, it is a common view held by millions for centuries.

Do you speak on behalf of the Church ?[/quote] Yes, See Matt 28: 16-20

[/quote]

RG a pope !!

so your position is one man can speak for the church ..... mmmmmmm i remember you saying something different .

cygnusx1 · Jul 1, 2007

Rick Otto said:
"What they believe is not scriptural as it has been accepted, believed and practiced by the consensus of all believers since the beginning."
Is that a book title - "The Consensus of All Believers"?
I thought all a consensus was, is a collection of private interpretations that happen to agree.

I thought that to construct an apostacy, you have to do is to fool all of the people some of the time, or at least fool some of the people all of the time.

yes bro , I do struggle with the logic behind this position !

Rightglory · Jul 1, 2007

Cygnus,

so your position is one man can speak for the church ..... mmmmmmm i remember you saying something different .

Yes, the Universal Gospel as stated and implied in Matt 28:16-20.
I kinda knew that would not fit your understanding of the Gospel. You do speak for a universal gospel, namely your very own private version. Gospel of one, as it is so painfully obvious in this world today. Christianity is so Baskin-Robbins that it has lost its value and impact.
It has become for most simply an ideology, rather than
a distinct way of life of living In Christ and in union with ones Creator through His Revelation.

Ben johnson · Jul 1, 2007

NBF said:
Never heard about the tunnels. The Center of the Universe is down by the train station, if I remember correctly. You can Google it. There's a tall obelisk-like structure, and a brick plaza, that slopes away from a central point all around. When you stand on the center (on a little metal disk), and speak, you'll hear an echo of your voice, like you were in an echo chamber. It only happens when you stand on that exact spot, if you move any way off of it, there is no echo. Check it out, it's cool. I'm surprised you don't know about it, living there. That was one of the first places I visited with my lady-friend when I visited Tulsa back in 1999.

I don't use "Google", but I found it nonetheless; they think it's the planters that form the echo-thing.

There is a system of tunnels that connect several downtown buildings; they're quite elaborate, and only one is no longer in use (it was a private access for one of the millionaires).

Did you know it's possible to buy a "brand new" 1932 Ford Coupe (3-window, or 5-window), or Roadster? Made with all new parts? It IS possible!

Yeah, I did; is it Mexico that bought all the stamps and designs?

Did you see the blue '40s car that someone drove from Cuba to Florida? Almost as funny as the yellow pickup. The truck had 55 gallon steel drums welded on, the drive-shaft became a propellor. Not sure how they made the car water-tight. Coast Guard scuttled both; they should have been put in a museum...

Yeah, like the American Indians, or the Pacific Islanders, or the Ancient Chinese, or the Aztecs, the Maya, etc. Are you seriously going to tell us you believe they had the opportunity to be saved without Christ?

Well, we've discussed (argued) this. One of the strongest conflicts with "predestination", is the fact that faith is tied to seeing. As Paul said in Rom10:14, and as Jesus said in Lk20:29. If faith is tied to "seeing", then how could it be "sovereignly predestined"?

What of the indigenous peoples you mentioned? Rom1-2 has always answered that for me. 1:19-20 says that "God is revealed to all men, He is clearly seen through what He has made". Suppose a man who had never heard of Jesus, but looked around at nature, and concluded "there must be a Creator". You and I know Jesus is real; would such a man, seeking the Creator, not find Him? This seems to be what Paul was saying in Rom2:14-16; those who do not have the Law, nevertheless have the Law (meaning Jesus) written in their hearts, then their conscience will alternately accuse and defend them at the Final Judgment.

This to me means that such men can emerge from the Judgment, and enter Heaven.

But understand, such a position does not propose "salvation apart from Jesus"; it's simply "salvation through Christ, inasmuch as they understood Him."

As saved believers, does not the Holy Spirit indwell us, and reveal spiritual truths? If such an un-missionaried man sought the Creator, and if Jesus responded and GAVE him the Holy Spirit, would not the Spirit then indwell that man and teach him the same deeper spiritual truths as He teaches us, in 1Cor2:14?

This will be a difficult position for you to consider; because you place "sovereign election" before "seeking". Yet I see Heb11:6 as placing God as receiver of man's faithful seeking --- which embodies Jeremiah 29:11-13, "You will seek Me and you will find Me, when you search with all your heart; I will be found by you."

cygnusx1 · Jul 2, 2007

"so your position is one man can speak for the church ..... mmmmmmm i remember you saying something different ." cygnusx1

rightglory said:
Yes, the Universal Gospel as stated and implied in Matt 28:16-20.
I kinda knew ........

Rightglory said:
No one person has ever spoken for the Church.

RighGlory said:
Individual Church Fathers are not that important.

How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

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