How, then, is the Calvinist refuted? (2)

[frumanchu]

In Heb12:7-9, it's clearly shown that "if WE refuse to submit to God's discipline, then WE are no longer children but illegitimate".

That is not what that passage says, Ben. As explained [post=1591329]previously[/post]:

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']The beginning of Chapter 12, following on the heals of reminding the readers of the acts of faith of those who went before them (Abraham, Joshua, etc), compares the life of faith to a race. I was a distance runner in high school, Ben. The comparison is exceptionally appropriate. There are times, especially in the middle of the race, where you begin to get sluggish or fatigued. Your mind may wander. You may begin to lose form and slow down. Your feet may feel heavy and you may stumble. But you press on and you learn to overcome such things and finish the race.

He then points to the suffering and endurance of Christ Himself. He urges them to consider their own struggles in light of the ultimate show of endurance in the life of Christ, particularly in His humiliation and death. Those who "become weary and discouraged in [their] souls" have forgotten that they were foretold that "the Lord chastens whom He loves." He deals with us as fathers with a son:

"Many Roman nobles had illegitimate sons, who were financially supported but left virtually without discipline. On the other hand, the son of a nobleman’s legal wife, who would carry the father’s name and inherit the estate, was subjected to a training regimen comparable to slavery (Gal. 4:1, 2) "
New Geneva study Bible. 1997, c1995 (electronic ed.) (Heb 12:8). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

"1Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." Gal 4:1-7


12:11 brings the point home that he is making:

"Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."

The whole point is in encouraging believers who are enduring chastening by pointing out that a) it is nothing compared to what Christ endured for us, b) it is a proper showing of the love of God to His adopted children, and c) though it is painful at present, it is intended and will bring about the "peaceable fruit of righteousness" in them.[/FONT]

Back to John1:12-13 --- "begottenness" (God's gift of grace) is not of ourselves, but those WHO RECEIVE Jesus WHO BELIEVE gain the right to BECOME begotten.

As has been repeatedly demonstrated, these verses DO NOT establish the chain of causality you claim. Not to mention the fact that, according to your previous statements on the issue, their "right to become begotten" could not be realized unless and until they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. You have yet to answer for that paradox, Ben.

Remember, Jesus rebuked Nick for being a teacher and not KNOWING the basics.

Yet according to your very own words He is rebuking Nicodemus for failing to "know the basics" when such basics were not even possible at that point in redemptive history because one could only be born again after being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which didn't happen until Pentecost.

How do you answer this paradox, Ben?

 

[Rick Otto]

Ben johnson;]I see."Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH, the salvation of your souls. WELLLLL, not really YOUR faith, 'cause God GIFTS it to you, so I'm really sayin' 'receive FAITH and THEREFORE salvation'."
How does that make sense to you, Rick?

"Well, not realy YOUR faith,..."?
Why isn't it realy "OUR" faith?
Simply because it is God's gift to us?
Is your life realy "YOUR" life, or is it your mom & dad's?
Surely you weren't spontaneaously generated by your own will?

A predestined choice is no choice --- for he cannot choose ELSE. Right?

"He cannot choose ELSE."

You admit yourself he chooses, even as you try to deny it. You don't realize you are trying to redefine "choice".


How do we order a copy of your book?

 

[Ben johnson]

He DID reveal it to Bethsaida and Chorazin, yet they did NOT believe. That would indicate that the depth of sin that the contemporary cities was even greater that the sins of Tyre and Sidon.

Wait-wait-wait --- Jesus is condemning UNBELIEF. Do you really assert that those current cities, had GREATER sin than SODOM???

How can there be different levels of punishment, if belief (AND unbelief) are both God's sovereign choice? Jesus would have to be saying:

"Those who are MORE sinful, will be punished MORE; even though without sovereign-monergistic-regeneration you can ONLY seek depravity, there are those who can be LESSER depraved than OTHERS. So those who seek LESS depravity will be punished LESS than those who seek more."

How does that work?

 

[Ben johnson]

"Well, not really YOUR faith,..."?
Why isn't it really "OUR" faith?

If God GIFTS it to us, then it's GOD'S faith that He GIVES, not ours.

Simply because it is God's gift to us?

Because He DID the faith, we had no part in it. Instead of "Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God must believe that God IS, and that God is a rewarder of those who seek Him"...

...it becomes "Without faith it is impossible to please God, so God must BESTOW faith that man CAN believe God is, and THEREFORE God rewards those whom He has ORDAINED to seek Him".

See the difference?

Is your life really "YOUR" life, or is it your mom & dad's?

Wouldn't you say "God created my life through my parents?"

I had no choice about being born; not the year, not the place, not the family.

...but after that, do I not choose what I eat, what I wear, where I go? Equally, I choose to believe God, or not.

Surely you weren't spontaneously generated by your own will?

Last night I had shrimp cakes; I could have had the Halibut --- but I made a conscious choice.

You admit yourself he chooses, even as you try to deny it. You don't realize you are trying to redefine "choice".

If I were in prison, and the only dinner choice was "macaroni" --- I can choose macaroni, or macaroni.

Is that really a choice?

How do we order a copy of your book?

Much of what I've written, you've already seen. The book makes it more concise --- it's formatted first as a list of "favorite verses that are thought to support a particular view" (Calvinism, Antinomianism, Eternal Security, Pre-Trib-Rapture, and Universalism). Then each verse is examined in context and with regard to the whole. There are apendecies --- like "Fifty-Five-Verses That Stand Against OSAS". We discuss words like "Blameless", how blamelessness is fully charged to us (2Pet3:14, Col1:23, Jude24 w/20-21, Philip2:15). We discuss "stand fast", and how it's the condition for our being "alive" (1Thess3:8), and the condition for being "of Christ's house" (Heb3:6). How there are warnings against being deceived to unsteadfastness (2Pet3:17, Col2:6-8).

But if you haven't received what I've said here, how will you accept the Scriptures quoted in my book?

 

[frumanchu]

How can there be different levels of punishment, if belief (AND unbelief) are both God's sovereign choice? Jesus would have to be saying:

"Those who are MORE sinful, will be punished MORE; even though without sovereign-monergistic-regeneration you can ONLY seek depravity, there are those who can be LESSER depraved than OTHERS. So those who seek LESS depravity will be punished LESS than those who seek more."

How does that work?

Because His sovereign choice is whether or not to allow men to continue in the willful sin they already live in. They can "only seek depravity" because they only want to.

Good grief, Ben...the very passage you keep quoting to us (Matt 11:21-24) makes it quite obvious that there are degrees of punishment, as well as many others like Luke 12:47-48. Total depravity does not mean utter depravity. Stalin and Gandhi are presumably both in Hell right now. I dare say it is far worse for Stalin than for Gandhi.

 

[Ben johnson]

If I were in prison, and the only dinner choice was "macaroni" --- I can choose macaroni, or macaroni.

Is that really a choice?

Actually, that's more of a "choice", than Calvinism. If I hate macaroni, I can always choose to starve to death.

...in Calvinism, sovereign monergistic regneration ALWAYS leads to saving-belief, it is 100% irresistible. No choice.

So --- sorry, bad analogy.

 

[frumanchu]

Actually, that's more of a "choice", than Calvinism. If I hate macaroni, I can always choose to starve to death.

...in Calvinism, sovereign monergistic regneration ALWAYS leads to saving-belief, it is 100% irresistible. No choice.

So --- sorry, bad analogy.

Not just bad analogy...bad analysis.

The fact that God's regeneration is efficacious in bringing about does not remove their choice from the equation, Ben, anymore than His divine inspiration of Scripture removed the choice of words from those who penned it.

Do you not believe the writers of Scripture wrote it in their own words, not dictating but writing as they were inspired to by the Holy Spirit? Do you believe God efficaciously ensured that every single word they wrote down was perfectly and infallibly true?

If so, why can you not accept that God could efficaciously bring about man's choice as He purposes without violating the "freedom" of their will?

The choice you're saying they don't have is not the choice of whether or not to believe but rather the choice of whether or not to choose according to the desire for God that He has quickened in their previously dead unregenerate heart. You object because they don't have the choice of whether or not to act according to their own nature.

You have your choice of food, Ben...but what you do not have a choice in is whether or not you will choose according to your strongest desire at the moment of choice. You will ultimately without fail choose what you want most, and THAT is the very definition of
"free will."

 

[frumanchu]

If God GIFTS it to us, then it's GOD'S faith that He GIVES, not ours.Because He DID the faith, we had no part in it. Instead of "Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God must believe that God IS, and that God is a rewarder of those who seek Him"...

...it becomes "Without faith it is impossible to please God, so God must BESTOW faith that man CAN believe God is, and THEREFORE God rewards those whom He has ORDAINED to seek Him".

See the difference?

Once again, YOU ARE NOT PRESENTING WHAT CALVINISTS BELIEVE. You say Calvinists believe "God DID the faith." That is in direct and explicit contradiction to what has been explained. I will say it again: The faith that men have is genuinely theirs. It is INSPIRED NOT INSTILLED.

Wouldn't you say "God created my life through my parents?"

I had no choice about being born; not the year, not the place, not the family.

Why can you not understand the difference in causality here, Ben? Why can you not acknowledge that both God and your parents were the cause of your life...God as the primary cause and your parents as the instrumental cause?

...but after that, do I not choose what I eat, what I wear, where I go? Equally, I choose to believe God, or not.
Last night I had shrimp cakes; I could have had the Halibut --- but I made a conscious choice.
If I were in prison, and the only dinner choice was "macaroni" --- I can choose macaroni, or macaroni.

Is that really a choice?

Again, poor analogy. Correctly applied, your choice in prison is between macaroni and chicken. You hate chicken, so you ALWAYS choose macaroni. You ALWAYS have the choice between the two, but you ALWAYS choose the same way because of your desire. Unless someone changes that desire and somehow inspires you to eat the chicken, you will ALWAYS choose of your own "free will" to eat macaroni.

Much of what I've written, you've already seen. The book makes it more concise --- it's formatted first as a list of "favorite verses that are thought to support a particular view" (Calvinism, Antinomianism, Eternal Security, Pre-Trib-Rapture, and Universalism). Then each verse is examined in context and with regard to the whole. There are apendecies --- like "Fifty-Five-Verses That Stand Against OSAS". We discuss words like "Blameless", how blamelessness is fully charged to us (2Pet3:14, Col1:23, Jude24 w/20-21, Philip2:15). We discuss "stand fast", and how it's the condition for our being "alive" (1Thess3:8), and the condition for being "of Christ's house" (Heb3:6). How there are warnings against being deceived to unsteadfastness (2Pet3:17, Col2:6-8).

But if you haven't received what I've said here, how will you accept the Scriptures quoted in my book?

Ben, it is not the Scriptures themselves we reject. It is your interpretation of them and the arguments you try to make with them.

 

[Rick Otto]

Ben johnson;If God GIFTS it to us, then it's GOD'S faith that He GIVES, not ours.

lol, Ben,if God gives you something, it is yours even tho it is not "of" yourself.

Because He DID the faith,...

Now your "verbing" the noun. Pure invention. Very creative, but only humerous, not serious.
Giving the gift of faith isn't "doing the faith".
We do the "faithing" ( ) God grants us to do.

....we had no part in it.

Our part is that we irresistably recieved it.

Instead of "Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God must believe that God IS, and that God is a rewarder of those who seek Him"...

Predestination doesn't annihilate cause & effect, it simply & elegantly orders it to God's determinate council:
Ac 2:23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
The guys who committed deicide did so out of their own wicked motivations, but in accordance with God's determinate council, which is of a totaly good motive.
It's a perfect example of how even bad things work toward the good of those who love Him.
Ro 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

...it becomes "Without faith it is impossible to please God, so God must BESTOW faith that man CAN believe God is, and THEREFORE God rewards those whom He has ORDAINED to seek Him".

Exactly. Nothin' different, just explained a little more.

See the difference?
Wouldn't you say "God created my life through my parents?"

Didn't He?

I had no choice about being born; not the year, not the place, not the family.

...but after that, do I not choose what I eat, what I wear, where I go?

Different issue, and beside the point. Predestination doesn't annihilate choice, it simply predestines it.

Equally,I choose to believe God, or not.

Or whatever it is you believe God to be.

Last night I had shrimp cakes; I could have had the Halibut --- but I made a conscious choice.
If I were in prison, and the only dinner choice was "macaroni" --- I can choose macaroni, or macaroni.

Is that really a choice?

Yes, even if it sucks, it is still a choice.

Much of what I've written, you've already seen. The book makes it more concise --- it's formatted first as a list of "favorite verses that are thought to support a particular view" (Calvinism, Antinomianism, Eternal Security, Pre-Trib-Rapture, and Universalism). Then each verse is examined in context and with regard to the whole. There are apendecies --- like "Fifty-Five-Verses That Stand Against OSAS". We discuss words like "Blameless", how blamelessness is fully charged to us (2Pet3:14, Col1:23, Jude24 w/20-21, Philip2:15). We discuss "stand fast", and how it's the condition for our being "alive" (1Thess3:8), and the condition for being "of Christ's house" (Heb3:6). How there are warnings against being deceived to unsteadfastness (2Pet3:17, Col2:6-8).

But if you haven't received what I've said here, how will you accept the Scriptures quoted in my book?

Maybe I can get the video or the Cliff notes.

 

[nobdysfool]

Hey Rick, this forum is the "Cliff's Notes".....

 

[ReformedTruth]

You still fail to understand that their sin is their sin. It does not cease to be their sin just because it is ordained of God. He did not work evil in their hearts to compel or tempt them to sin. Their sin was purely born of their own evil hearts, but it was never outside the control or sovereignty of God. That God allowed it for His own sovereign purpose does not in any way excuse them from responsibility for it. Just ask Joseph's brothers.

You are getting close my brother yet unfortunately talking out of both sides of your mouth. You say "ordain" which involves action and then get all Arminian on us claiming that God was just watching while the brothers of Joseph tossed him in the pit. No Sir. "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away." God was in charge of every move for if he was only watching letting it happen that places man in a position to thwart his plan. What an impotent god you serve. Joseph had it right, "God meant it for good," not "watched and let it happen for good." Just ask the three year old girl, victim of Chester Stiles, who was raped repeatedly for hours in a commerical video. God "meant it for good." Oh his ways, so glorious and past our finding out.

 

[frumanchu]

You are getting close my brother yet unfortunately talking out of both sides of your mouth. You say "ordain" which involves action and then get all Arminian on us claiming that God was just watching while the brothers of Joseph tossed him in the pit. No Sir. "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away." God was in charge of every move for if he was only watching letting it happen that places man in a position to thwart his plan. What an impotent god you serve. Joseph had it right, "God meant it for good," not "watched and let it happen for good." Just ask the three year old girl, victim of Chester Stiles, who was raped repeatedly for hours in a commerical video. God "meant it for good." Oh his ways, so glorious and past our finding out.

Friend, I am staying true to the Reformed faith and the Biblical witness.

Do you believe God inspired the actions of Joseph's brothers, or tempted them to the sin which the committed? Surely not! Not a breath they took was anything other than ordained of God, yet we must also maintain and uphold the fact that He was not the author of their sin. Their sin proceeded from the evil within their hearts, yet occurred not by any bare permission on God's part but according to His sovereign purpose. They were ordained of God yet fully within the establishment of the principle of secondary cause. God's super-intention does not remove the fact that man himself, being the author of his sin, is responsible for his actions.

It is impossible for a self-existent eternal God who is omniscient and omnipotent to be surprised, stumped or thwarted by anything which occurs within His creation...especially the thoughts and actions of men.

Do not mistake my words, friend. I am a full proponent of God's sovereignty in ordaining whatsoever comes to pass.

 

[ReformedTruth]

Friend, I am staying true to the Reformed faith and the Biblical witness.

Do you believe God inspired the actions of Joseph's brothers, or tempted them to the sin which the committed? Surely not! Not a breath they took was anything other than ordained of God, yet we must also maintain and uphold the fact that He was not the author of their sin. Their sin proceeded from the evil within their hearts, yet occurred not by any bare permission on God's part but according to His sovereign purpose. They were ordained of God yet fully within the establishment of the principle of secondary cause. God's super-intention does not remove the fact that man himself, being the author of his sin, is responsible for his actions.

It is impossible for a self-existent eternal God who is omniscient and omnipotent to be surprised, stumped or thwarted by anything which occurs within His creation...especially the thoughts and actions of men.

Do not mistake my words, friend. I am a full proponent of God's sovereignty in ordaining whatsoever comes to pass.

There is no mistake at all that you talk out of both sides of your mouth again in your attempt to explain how God can predestine "all things" without ordering the sinful actions of men. You speak of what you "must do" and it is obvious what that is, engage in sophisty because you want to have your cake and eat it also, your god predestining everything except hands off when people sin. Like the Arminian, you shift gears pointing away from your god to the heart and will of man. Yet God knows all the minute details of the future because he ordered them, including the sinful words, actions, and deeds foretold in the passion account. Nothing can account for these prophetic details but divine activity to assure the specific sinful actions. Active, hands on. People like yourself though eagerly accept God`s irresistible activity when it comes to your salvation but cry "no no no!" when it comes to the biblical truths involving the divine ordination of evil. But your double mindedness is a stench in the nostrils of God. And you preach on about Joseph`s brothers while having nothing to say about the likes of the Holocaust or the child rapist Chester Arthur Stiles. God foreknew these details as well down to the sound of every groan or plea for mercy because he ordered all aspects the events. Therefore choice is an illusion, for God predestined even the evil actions of men to demonstrate his wrath. And those who would complain about the justice of this are in essence instructed to keep silent. You can`t have your cake and eat it too. We need truth tellers in Calvinism, not lofty tap dancing hoping the difficult issues will go away. The world isn`t impressed or fooled nor are scripturally conscious Christians.

 

[CCWoody]

One cannot be "dead in sins", and "believ-ING".

Therefore, it is impossible to believe WHILE dead. Yet, you insist that you do in fact believe WHEN you are dead....

But WHILE (or "when") we were dead, we were made alive through faith. ~ Ben Johnson.​

The sad part is that you can't even see the glaring contradiction.

Correct --- that is why FAITH, "makes us ALIVE".

Funny, I thought that God made us alive.

So, faith is not of grace as you insist and faith makes us alive so your being made alive has nothing to do with God. Like I said....

It is almost like you just needed God to die and get out of your way.

What Scripture is that from? It's not, is it?
Weak argument. "Whoever believes Jesus is MESSIAH, is born of God" --- does not conflict at all "believers are born of God the moment they believe".

Ben, O expert of the Greek, the tense is explicit. At any moment of belief, including the first moment, the act of being born of God is already a finished act not needing to be repeated. This is the meaning of the Greek verb tense.

Remember, Ben, this MUST be true: It is of faith that it might be of grace. ~ Sola Fide, Sola Gratia ~ CCWoody

What Scripture is that from? It's not, is it?

Well, it may no longer be in the Ben Johnson private translation of Scripture, but it is still in my Bible....

[bible]Romans 4:16[/bible]

Your problem, Ben, apart from the fact that you insist that the logical contradiction of belief and dead be true is the fact that you don't even know what the Bible says much less what it really means.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[CCWoody]

Calvinists assert that "You don't believe (in ME) because you're not My sheep". But it says "You don't believe (that I'm the Messiah) because you haven't believed in Me."

Your refutation does not stand.

Ben, don't you think it is plainly obvious to the ENTIRE world that you simply rewrite any verse of Scripture which doesn't agree with you.

[BIBLE]John 10:26[/BIBLE]

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[CCWoody]

A predestined choice is no choice --- for he cannot choose ELSE.

Right?

A known future choice is no choice -- for he cannot choose ELSE.

Right?

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[AndOne]

No it doesn't. "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Does this establish "the Son wills to reveal the Father to only a FEW"? No.

This doesn't refute my point at all. I never said God only chooses a few. How on earth would I know whether its a few or many? It's not for me to know - and I probably never will know. The point of Matt 11:27 is that God chooses. Who, when, and how many I can't answer - no one can. You are putting words in my mouth Ben - you've done it since the LBMB days.

Matt11:25: "You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to babes."

Fact is God is the one doing the revealing - not man finding.

And we read 18:3-4, which admonishes people to humble themselves as babes. Did Jesus forget to mention "but it's really GOD who SOVEREIGNLY humbles you"?

Actually Jesus did mention it - sort of - in 11:27. This doesn't refute any of my points. I don't deny Jesus admonishes - I'm just pointing out that these people aren't going to be able to do so until God enables them.

The point stands, from verse 21-24 --- if the PAST cities (Tyre, Sidon, Sodom) had seen what the CURRENT cities (Capernaum Betshadia & Chorazin) had seen, THEY would have BELIEVED; the current ones will be judged more harshly than the others.

Judged more harshly? Why, Behe? Because God chose BOTH to unbelief? Tell me how that makes sense to you?

Again - putting words in my mouth. I never said God chose both to unbelief. I just said that they, we, he, she, everyone is in unbelief until God makes them able. Check out Matthew 11:27.

"Predestination" is completely ruined here, isn't it?
Jesus would not have condemned what God PREDESTINES. Verse 27 is another "I'm AUTHORIZED" verse, nothing more, nothing less.

Predestination would be ruined if vs 27 was NOT there. But it is - so it remains firmly in tact. I have no idea what an "I'm AUTHORIZED" verse is - nor do I want to know if its coming from you.

If our "willingness-to-belief" is GOD'S choice, then those who WILL NOT believe will not be judged more harshly than OTHERS who did not believe --- especially when Jesus said "if THEY had seen what YOU have seen, THEY would have BELIEVED".

Think about that, Behe --- had they seen Jesus' miracles, would God's SOVEREIGN WILL that they NOT believe, would it have CHANGED (so they BELIEVED?)

As I replied earlier - you would be right had vs 27 not been in the text. And therefore the reason they would have believed is because God would have enabled them to be able to appreciate the miracles in order to believe.

"They would have believed", removes any hint of "belief is sovereignly decreed".
Show me how verse 27 hints at all, that "only a few-sovereign-chosen WILL believe".
I await with baited breath (and an extra bottle of Scope) for your explanation of how verse 27 asserts "limited atonement"....
You deny what I just said about "humble YOURSELVES as babes", and "THEY would have BELIEVED".

Is man's belief God's CHOICE, or NOT?

The only answer is "not". "If THEY had seen what YOU have seen, THEY would have BELIEVED; it will go better for THEM in the Judgment than for YOU."

I think I'm the one who needs scope or something for my mouth - with all the words you keep putting there. Bottom line - God is soverign over all - including man's will. Like I said earlier - you'd be right had vs 27 not been in this text.

 

[Rightglory]

Ben,

Take a break from your endless circle
Have you found any answers to what I had stated in my last post to you?
Either Christ is victorious over death or He is not. There is no middle ground here.
If you don't believe He is Risen, then no one is risen. If you believe His is Risen from the dead, then all mankind will also be rasied, they all were made alive by Christ. It is either/or, nothing in between.
Both your view and CCWoody's with whom you are going in circles have the same problem. You are trying to get a dead man to believe.
It does not matter how he might believe, it all ends in death because both of your theologies end in death for human beings, nullifying any faith or life eternal.
I know both of you will say that you believe Christ arose, but your theology says otherwise.

 

[Ben johnson]

lol, Ben,if God gives you something, it is yours even tho it is not "of" yourself.

Technically right --- nevertheless, we ADD or contribute NOTHING to a gift. So in that sense the "gift", remains all of the "giver" ---even tho it now belongs to the RECEIVER.

Now your "verbing" the noun. Pure invention. Very creative, but only humerous, not serious.
Giving the gift of faith isn't "doing the faith".
We do the "faithing" ( ) God grants us to do.

Does God gift faith to us, or do we believe?

Our part is that we irresistably recieved it.

Then we had no choice, did we?

Predestination doesn't annihilate cause & effect, it simply & elegantly orders it to God's determinate council:

Yes it does; throughout Scripture immortality is our CHOICE, the CONSEQUENCE of our actions --- see Rom2:6-8 for full proof.

"Predestination" reverses cause and effect; and makes the "Final Judgment", mockery.

Ac 2:23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Jesus was predestined (see 1Pet1:20-21)

The guys who committed deicide did so out of their own wicked motivations, but in accordance with God's determinate council, which is of a totaly good motive.

Jesus was put in a time and place where He would be crucified; God caused none of their actions.

It's a perfect example of how even bad things work toward the good of those who love Him.[/qoute]Was the Holocaust God's choice? No.

Ro 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Focus on "those who love God" --- that comes first.

Exactly. Nothin' different, just explained a little more.

Heh heh heh! That's called "Eisegesis", Rick.

Different issue, and beside the point. Predestination doesn't annihilate choice, it simply predestines it.

Predestined-choice is not a choice. What else could a predestined man, choose?

 

[Ben johnson]

There is no mistake at all that you talk out of both sides of your mouth again in your attempt to explain how God can predestine "all things" without ordering the sinful actions of men. You speak of what you "must do" and it is obvious what that is, engage in sophisty because you want to have your cake and eat it also, your god predestining everything except hands off when people sin. Like the Arminian, you shift gears pointing away from your god to the heart and will of man. Yet God knows all the minute details of the future because he ordered them, including the sinful words, actions, and deeds foretold in the passion account. Nothing can account for these prophetic details but divine activity to assure the specific sinful actions. Active, hands on. People like yourself though eagerly accept God`s irresistible activity when it comes to your salvation but cry "no no no!" when it comes to the biblical truths involving the divine ordination of evil. But your double mindedness is a stench in the nostrils of God. And you preach on about Joseph`s brothers while having nothing to say about the likes of the Holocaust or the child rapist Chester Arthur Stiles. God foreknew these details as well down to the sound of every groan or plea for mercy because he ordered all aspects the events. Therefore choice is an illusion, for God predestined even the evil actions of men to demonstrate his wrath. And those who would complain about the justice of this are in essence instructed to keep silent. You can`t have your cake and eat it too. We need truth tellers in Calvinism, not lofty tap dancing hoping the difficult issues will go away. The world isn`t impressed or fooled nor are scripturally conscious Christians.

Hi again, RT. Even though you and I disagree on basic things, we're perfectly in agreement on one thing:

There is no Calvinism, but Hyper-Calvinism.

If God sovereignly elects the FEW, then He also sovereignly chooses the REST for sin and destruction. It's all His choice, and all His fault.

But tell me --- why then does He run a "Final Judgment", to dramatize what HE has SOVEREIGNLY PREDESTINED?

Hence the word in my previous post, "mockery"; it's not a judgment at all, 'cause He ordained all of it...