Ben Johnson,
Hi, "Rightglory". The thread is about "Calvinism" --- I feel that Calvinism, or "Reformed Theology", is fully overturned. Posts 106, 107, and 108, were particularly devastating; 106 establishes that a "dead-in-sins" man, can believe --- and that belief precedes "made-alive". 108 establishes that "God's grace is recieved by man's faith" --- faith does not make a man righteous or meritorious, faith receives God's grace and righteousness. Each assertion was fully backed by Scripture.
I fully agree with you on almost everything. I also agree that you have clearly shown Reformed theology overturned.
However, in the above statement a key phrase is incorrect.
It is "establishes that a dead-in-sins man can believe and that belief precedes "made alive".
There is no man that is "dead in sins" any longer. That means we would still be under the condemnation of Adam. Christ overturned that condemnation by His resurrection. He freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin. If Christ is not risen, then we are not saved, if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not risen. I Cor 15:14-19 clearly shows that Christ gave life to mankind. If He did not, then even our faith is moot, in vain. Faith does not grant life eternal or immortality.
Faith places a believer into Christ so we can be joined with Christ. We live IN Him because He lives and restored life to mankind.
But also, your statement, "faith does make man righteous". We are justified by faith. Justified and be made righteous are the same thing. It is because we are justified that we are given all the special Grace given to the elect. Faith initiates it, as well as recieves it.
The context equates "made-alive", with "saved"; it does not convey "all mankind is made alive".
Vs 5 does not which is why the parentheses around the phrase. All mankind of necessity was made alive otherwise faith or the through faith which follows in vs 8 he adds this phrase because he is refering back to the verses of 7-8 which is referencing believers.
Rom 11:32, Rom 5:18-19 all clearly indicate that Christ redeemed mankind from death. From the condemnation through Adam. He corrected the fall. That is the ONLY purpose of Christ's work. It was to restore mankind to his rightful place in the created order, that of being a human being, created in His Image to freely choose to live IN Him, to be made into His likeness. Death prevented, precluded any union or communion with God since man would simply die and cease to exist. That is the meaning of death, dust to dust of Gen 3:19. A pile of dust cannot believe and have any meaning and consequence for eternity.
...yet, to actually BE saved, requires conscious belief. Grace is RECEIVED. Verses like Rom5:17 are very clear on this. And to establish that "clarity", we must agree on the two points:
yes, soul salvation. this is what man fell from to which Christ restored mankind. We are not being saved from the very purpose of our created existance. We are being saved firstly from the condemnation through Adam. He eliminated that death by conquering it, not just for believers, but for the world. There can be no heaven or hell unless man has life. If you assume that non-believers are still under the condemnation of Adam and have not actually been redeemed, they will remain a pile of dust. They cease to exist as human beings. Yet we know that all shall be raised, Christ lost none to death, John 6:39 and then vs 40 makes the distinction that those that see and believe of all mankind will also have eternal life, be raised, but it will be with Him. A pile of dust cannot stand in judgement. A pile of dust will not even be able to experience the absence of God, the spiritual death as a result of his own rejection. He has already been condemned, why do you think he should be condemned again?
1. "Reign with Christ", conveys SALVATION.
2. Grace is received, which denotes belief.
On this I fully agree with you. But this is referencing the salvation of our individual souls. It is not referencing the salvation from the fall, from death, the Work of Christ on the Cross. This faith is totally inoperative unless man has life. If God desires all men to be saved, that is the salvation of their souls, at least it is encumbent that He first saves mankind from death so he is enabled to not just believe, but have eternal consequences.
There is no way to deny either point.
I don't and don't need to. They are addressing a different aspect of salvation. It is the only place that you fall into the same blunder as Calvinist do. You conflate the Work of Christ on the Cross with the acceptance or man's response to Christ's call to repentance.
You make the response part of the Work of Christ on the Cross. Christ saved not a single individual soul on the Cross. He provided the means, the ability, the capability for man to get back to the purpose for which we were created to be and do with God prior to the fall. It is what man was restored to which he lost due to the fall. Man cannot save himself. How can a dead mortal give life to himself. How can a mortal who is sinful, propitiate his own sins not to say of the whole world. That is why Christ was needed, why He assumed that fallen human nature and by His resurrection raised it to life. It is the meaning and definition of the Incarnation.
And yet, all is predicated upon faith.
The salvation of mankind has nothing to do with faith. That is what Paul is describing in Rom 9-11, who God would save. Man has no say in the matter. God created man, without his imput and God will restore not just man, but the universe back to life as well without the imput of man. Who can resist God's will. It is not of flesh, nor the will of man, but of God. Rom 11:32, God had mercy upon all. This aligns with Rom 5:18-19 as with many other texts. Faith has nothing to do with Christ's work on the Cross, BUT it has everything to do with man's response to such a great mercy. Man is justified by faith. He enters into Christ through baptism, puts on Christ, recieves the Holy Spirit and all the rest. But that is what man was restore to do. What man was created to do in the first place and from which he fell due to the fall, death.
Faith receives immortality.
Then all those raised in the last day to stand in judgement, there will be many who will be condemned. Are you willling to say they gained immortality by their faith? Mankind gains immortality through Christ resurrection. Again see I Cor 15 which is the chapter which describes the centrality of the resurrection for all of salvation. Without the resurrection everything is moot. We would still be under Adam and condemned to death, non-existance, dust to dust. Is there life in dust? God told Adam he would return from which he came, dust. But He also gave the promise of a redeemer of that judgement in Gen 3:15.
And salvation is void, vain, moot, without faith.
Salvation of ones soul. The spiritual aspect of man, not the physical. The unrighteous will have immortality as well, they will live eternally, condemned to the spiritual death, the second death, not the first death.
Recognizing that "reign-with-Christ" denotes salvation, then Paul plainly states in 2Tim2:11-13, that if we endure, then we shall reign with Him; but if we ARE faithless, Jesus will deny us before God (and the only possible understanding is that we then will NOT reign with Him!)
The salvation of ones soul, the spiritual salvation, the salvation of each individual choosing or rejecting Christ. It now has eternal consequences because mankind has life, eternal life, immortality which was lost in the fall.
I don't think anyone is actually FREED from sin, BEFORE believing/receiving Christ. See Jn8:34-36. But we're more in agreement than not.
Freed as from the condemnation of death, mortality of Adam, thus sin because we sin because we are dead, mortal. We sin through the flesh. We choose to either remain under sin or under Christ. All men still sin, on either side. It is that man is now judged on his own sins and is not under the condemnation of Adam. Theologically if under Adam, whether one could believe and have faith or sin any way one chose would have made no difference whatsoever. Man was already condemned to death through Adam. It didn't matter what he could or could not do. Christ lifted that condemnation, so now man is responsible for his actions, for his choices, for what he does in his relationship with His creator. We all have the same choice that Adam had, live with God or reject Him, freely. That is what it means to be freed from death and sin respective of Christ's Work on the Cross.
"Justly judged", by definition because of his OWN CHOICE. That's why Calvinism errs at the most foundational level.
yes, as I have just explained above. And you are correct regarding Calvinism, but you are incorrect in that faith saved mankind or has anything to do with it.
Life is needed in order to even have one single soul believe. If even one is not raised, or given life,then Christ failed in overcoming that death and he lost at least one human being who bore His Image. See John 6:39. It says He did not fail.
"Salvation" always conveys "spiritual life".
That depends on the context. But spiritual life in impossible without physical life or immortality, the salvation of mankind from the fall.
Verse 39 connects with Jn17:6 --- Jesus is affirming His authority, nothing more, nothing less (see verse 42). So "all God gives Jesus", are "those who BELONG to God". Given THROUGH belief, not before.
yes, precisely which is why it also aligns with Col 1:15-20, with II Cor 5:18-19 also Rom 5:10 where a distinction is made in the same verse.Rom 3:22-24 also, as well as many more.
Jn6:40 clearly and plainly rests "saved", on the foundation of "belief".
And therefore you have your distinction from all, the world, the universe, to those that see, believe, have faith, accept and remain faithful.
With respect, this is a faulty understanding; "dead men", can believe. Jesus spent much time rebuking (Matt23:13, Jn5:39-47, Matt11:21-24) people for REFUSING to believe.
The point I made above cleaifies this. No man is dead any longer. That is precisely why Christ can rebuke them for no believing. No man has an excuse any longer, actually he never had anyway. Paul makes that clear in Rom 2 as well.
Unbelievers are not "spiritually alive"; and God chooses no one to spiritual life and faith.
no, but they are alive physically otherwise faith is impossible, moot, vain. If man is going to die permanently as in remaining under Adam's condemnation, then it matters not what faith might do or that man even has faith, it is moot. Man needs life first before he can live IN Christ.
Christ saved mankind so that man could live In Him. We are saved by His life, spiritually.
As I said, we're more in agreement than not; what He accomplished on the Cross, was redemption and propitiation for EVERY MAN (for all time). Heb10:12.
You said that last time as well, yet you are miles apart regarding Christ's actual accomplished work on the Cross.
Immortality is the reward to believers, wrath is the reward to the unrighteous
eternal wrath. Wrath or even being unrighteous has no consequences unless man has life, immortality. Hell is immortal, eternal. A pile of dust cannot stand in judgment, nor suffer the pangs of hell.
"immortality", in the meaning of "spiritually-alive", is not bestowed on unbelievers.
immortality has NEVER meant anything spiritual. It is a physical existance. If not then our mortal nature is but a spiritual existance as well, and our so-called biological death is a spiritual death.
Calvinism has two great errors --- first, in misunderstanding man's roll in RECEIVING God's grace; second in misunderstanding our roll in persevering in Jesus.
I understand that fully and agree with you.
But, nevertheless, you fail to understand what Christ actually accomplished on the Cross for mankind. For His created order actually. Faith does not give life to the universe either.
Paul did not include "through faith" in Eph2, absentmindedly (or offhandedly); faith is the means by which God's grace, saves us.
No, he meant what he states, but faith has nothing to do with verse 5. Faith also does not save mankind from the fall. Only Christ can and did actually, fully, completely, without fail, redeem mankind from the fall. He reversese the decision of death against Adam.
There is a time when Calvinists and I can stand together in faith, certain of each others' salvation; and there is a time when I am greatly concerned about their steadfastness in faith.
We have nothing to do with our immortality, but everything to do with cooperating with God respective of faith. It is why we were created in the first place. It is what Adam was doing before the fall. It is what we were restored to be able to do. But whether one is soul saved, I leave to each individual and with the Holy Spirit. I am not the judge. I can only proclaim the Gospel as He has given it and has preserved it for all mankind.
What does that prove?
