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How the Smallest Cells Give Big Evidence for a Creator

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quatona

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If you are an atheist and the subject is origin of life then the default is life from nonlife.
This is an inaccurate.
Are you asserting you do not believe all life here is from nonlife?
Actually, once the question "Where did life come from?" is asked and assumed to be meaningful, I don´t see an alternative to "from non-life" - simply because "life came from life" wouldn´t answer the question.
The only other option - as far as I can see - would be to reject the question as loaded with a wrong premise, and assume life to have always existed.
Atheists can claim ignorance but their actions speak louder then anything they say since they will run to any nonliving hypo out there like fly's to dog poo. Atheists pick up one end of the stick and they pick up the other. To be atheist is to assume all life here is from nonlife and everything is from nothing.
Look, you are entitled to dislike atheism and atheists, you are welcome to disagree and voice your disagreement - but I don´t think misrepresenting atheism really helps your case.
There is no middle ground.
Between what and what?
No room for ignorance.
Well, yes - in these existential questions there is a lot of room for ignorance.
Not given the totality of the evidence.[/quote]
Seeing how often you refer to this evidence, it´s a little frustrating that you are so reluctant presenting even only the most prominent pieces of evidence.
It´s also a little confusing that - with their being this "totality of evidence" for their positions - we keep being told about the importance of "faith" by theists.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Feel free to address the content of those links directly and point out where and why they are wrong with the backup of evidithouence.

Why? I have better things to do. He pretended that those sources helped him. Pointing out that he used bogus sources is enough. He did not even say how those sources supposedly helped him.

If he had pulled out specific claims from those sources I would have shown how they were wrong,but when he just provides a link pointing out that the source is false is good enough to refute it.
 
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Subduction Zone

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If you are interested, here is a more recent peer-reviewed technical paper published in February this year with more detailed explanations on the topic including telomeres:

Debunking the Debunkers

That is not a peer reviewed paper. Your source openly orders their writers not to use the scientific method. By doing so they make themselves worthless in any scientific debate.

When one says "peer reviewed" in the world of science that means that one is using a well respected professional journal that where the paper was reviewed by experts in the field of science that the paper was in. Your source fails in all aspects.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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Why? I have better things to do. He pretended that those sources helped him. Pointing out that he used bogus sources is enough. He did not even say how those sources supposedly helped him.

If he had pulled out specific claims from those sources I would have shown how they were wrong,but when he just provides a link pointing out that the source is false is good enough to refute it.
Where and when did I claim anything? The burden of proof is on you to prove your claim that those are "bogus" sources.

And I am still waiting for you to prove your claim that it is a "fact" that human are descended from apes... :sleep:
 
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Subduction Zone

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Where and when did I claim anything? The burden of proof is on you to prove your claim that those are "bogus" sources.

And I am still waiting for you to prove your claim that it is a "fact" that human are descended from apes... :sleep:
The fact that you are an ape has been proven. That you did not understand or ignored the evidence does not matter. That creationist sources are bogus is obvious. What makes you think that they are valid in any way at all?

All we can do is to repeat some of the evidence again. Until you can refute it with a valid source you lose. A valid source must at the very least rely on experts in the field. Or perform valid experiments of their own. Your sources do neither. Your sources are not even peer reviewed.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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The fact that you are an ape has been proven. That you did not understand or ignored the evidence does not matter. That creationist sources are bogus is obvious. What makes you think that they are valid in any way at all?

All we can do is to repeat some of the evidence again. Until you can refute it with a valid source you lose. A valid source must at the very least rely on experts in the field. Or perform valid experiments of their own. Your sources do neither. Your sources are not even peer reviewed.
Stating hypotheses as fact is the cardinal sin of science. In fact, it’s not even in the domain of science. It’s pseudoscience.

Apparently you didn't even read that peer-reviewed technical paper or even read the "Instructions to Authors" manual before making those erroneous assumptions:

https://legacy-cdn-assets.answersingenesis.org/assets/pdf/arj/instructions-to-authors.pdf
About Answers Research Journal

If you have nothing valuable to contribute to the discussions other than going round trolling and repeating the same empty assertions and false assumptions all over without anything substantial to contribute, it would be better for you to go and do your "better things" and let others who are open-minded enough to look at the evidence to get on with their discussions.
 
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pitabread

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If you are interested, here is a more recent peer-reviewed technical paper published in February this year with more detailed explanations on the topic including telomeres:

Debunking the Debunkers

Just FYI, but AiG is not what one considers a proper "peer-reviewed" source. It's just an apologetics site.

Especially since in reading through this paper, it hardly seems like the sort you'd typically find in a real, peer-review journal (at one point the author 'rebuts' an anonymous internet post with no citation to the original post; comical stuff).

Regardless, I combed through that paper and the author doesn't address the presence of telomeres at all. At best, they state this:

As stated above in the introduction, the general model proposed by evolutionary scientists is that the chromosome 2 fusion event was a head-to-head telomeric fusion. However, because the alleged fusion site is so small and degenerate, evolutionists in general propose that somehow the telomere repeats degenerated.

What the author doesn't mention is that telomeres exist to prevent (or at least inhibit) fusion between chromosomes and that as telomeres become shortened they become more susceptible to fusion events. For example, the following paper, The nature of telomere fusion and a definition of the critical telomere length in human cells. - PubMed - NCBI , discusses telomere fusions including deletion events associated with them, and the fact it's possible to have chromosome fusions with no residual telomere repeats.

Earlier in the paper, the author claims this:

Typical human telomeres are 5000 to 15,000 bases in length. An end-to-end fusion as proposed by evolutionists would give a signature of at least 10,000 bases in length, yet the fusion site is only 798 bases in length.

But claiming that a fusion should result in a telomeric region of at least 10k bases is completely out to lunch. Based on the nature of telomeres, one wouldn't and arguably shouldn't expect that at all.
 
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dmmesdale

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This is an inaccurate.
Not as far as i am concerned. You have to look at what they do as opposed to what they say.
I don´t see an alternative to "from non-life"
Then you are assuming all life is from nonlife from the get go. Blind faith. If you reject one real alternative then all you have is the other. The problem being, life from nonlife has no evidential basis or precedent. If there are two possibilities and one is rejected outright, which is what you are doing here, then all is left is one. -
simply because "life came from life" wouldn´t answer the question.
It is an abductive inference based on what we do know. It does answer the question. We take the facts from the present and produce hypos about the deep past. If they find sea shells on mountain tops, then they deduce the land was under water in the deep past. What is being asserted would cast doubt on Darwin since your reasoning could be applied to blind watchmaker evolution. At least as far as the above quote is understood.
Quote.

''Strictly speaking, common descent is an abductive or historical inference, as
Professor Ruse himself acknowledges when he speaks more accurately of
“inferring historical phylogenies.” As defined by C. S. Peirce, abductive in-
ferences attempt to establish past causes by viewing present effects. (As
such, it is more accurate to refer to common descent as a theory about facts,
i.e., a theory about what in fact happened in the past.) Unfortunately, such
theories, and the inferences used to construct them, can be notoriously un-
derdetermined.'' Stephen Meyer.

Many wil reject this outright because of extreme viewpoint discrimination. It is Meyer so it does not have to be considered. Says nothing about whether the statement is valid or not.


The only other option - as far as I can see - would be to reject the question as loaded with a wrong premise,
Nothing loaded and what wrong premise? If the question is rejected, it is for psychological rather than rational reasons. It is a valid question because where we come from tells us who we are. That makes it important.
and assume life to have always existed.
That would be rational since its alternative is life from nonlife or everything from nothing. Besides this is only one line of reasoning. There are plenty more. Theism better explains reality then does the implications of atheism. That being since atheism explains nothing but comes with a host of real implications. The proper definition of atheism is, for the most part, the active rejection of the supernatural (esp Bible God) in favor of materialistic sub standard explanations about the history of man and the universe. Atheists interpret the data atheistically.
you are welcome to disagree and voice your disagreement - but I don´t think misrepresenting atheism really helps your case.
Vacuous accusations not helpful to the discussion.
Between what and what?
Living and nonliving source for all bio life here. The imaginary middle ground is feigning ignorance. There are atheists who state they reject the supernatural up front. There are others that pretend they are open when they are not.
Well, yes - in these existential questions there is a lot of room for ignorance.
We make our choice on what we do know.
Not given the totality of the evidence.
[/QUOTE] In abduction they go with what they have. They do that all the time.
Seeing how often you refer to this evidence, it´s a little frustrating that you are so reluctant presenting even only the most prominent pieces of evidence.
It has been presented and ignored. The effect is evidence of the cause. If the effect is life, then the cause is living, not exclusive nonliving.
It´s also a little confusing that - with their being this "totality of evidence" for their positions - we keep being told about the importance of "faith" by theists.
There is a difference between blind faith and evidential based faith. You are not making the distinction.
 
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pitabread

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It has been presented and ignored.

What has been presented? You keep claiming there is all this evidence that better supports life from a supernatural source, but you've done everything except present anything, even after being repeatedly challenged to do so by multiple posters.
 
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dmmesdale

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That is not a peer reviewed paper.
Not a standard in science (^^^Unscientific) since any new idea could be rejected because it is not peer reviewed. No matter its merit. Peer review is used to validate the censorship because of fixed viewpoint discrimination. It is not peer reviewed, so i don't have to consider, only show bias. Under that scenario, a new technology for warp drive in space shuttles could be rejected because it is not peer reviewed and therefore unscientific. We don't have to consider your cure for AIDS because it is not peer reviewed and is therefore unscientific. Peer review restrictions can be the catalyst for dogmatists wishing to squash any new ideas that come along.

''A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.'' Max Planck.

The magical procedure takes precedence over the validity of the material. Truth takes a back seat to formalities.
Your source openly orders their writers not to use the scientific method. By doing so they make themselves worthless in any scientific debate.
Which says nothing about whether the material is valid or not.
When one says "peer reviewed" in the world of science that means that one is using a well respected professional journal that where the paper was reviewed by experts in the field of science that the paper was in. Your source fails in all aspects.
They can and have written books that are peer reviewed. Darwins Black Box was peer reviewed and so was Signature In The Cell. Any paper submitted for review can be rejected outright, and most ID papers are dead on arrival. Then the same come around and assert ID is unscientific because it is not peer reviewed. It is a catch 22.
 
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dmmesdale

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Not a standard in science since any new idea could be rejected because it is not peer reviewed. No matter its merit. Peer review is used to validate the censorship because of fixed viewpoint discrimination. It is not peer reviewed, so I don't have to consider, only show bias. Under that scenario, a new technology for warp drive in space shuttles could be rejected because it is not peer reviewed and therefore unscientific. We don't have to consider your cure for AIDS because it is not peer reviewed and is therefore unscientific. Peer review restrictions can be the catalyst for dogmatists wishing to squash any new ideas that come along.

''A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.'' Max Planck.

The magical procedure takes precedence over the validity of the material. Truth takes a back seat to formalities.
Which says nothing about whether the material is valid or not.
They can and have written books that are peer reviewed and do. Darwins Black Box was peer reviewed and so was Signature In The Cell. Any paper submitted for review can be rejected outright, and most ID papers are dead on arrival. Then the same come around and assert ID is unscientific because it is not peer reviewed. It is a catch 22.
 
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quatona

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Not as far as i am concerned. You have to look at what they do as opposed to what they say.
That´s not a way to determine the default.
Then you are assuming all life is from nonlife from the get go.
No, reread my post - it´s a logical necessity. "Life comes from life" isn´t an answer to the question "Where does life come from?".



Nothing loaded and what wrong premise?
Loaded with the assumption that life came from something.
If the question is rejected, it is for psychological rather than rational reasons.
I don´t reject it. I am just pointing out that asking it doesn´t allow for it to be answered anything but "from non-life".
If, however, you leave out the premise, there is the option that there has always been life.
That would be rational since its alternative is life from nonlife or everything from nothing.
The latter doesn´t have anything to do with the first. Stop obsfucatiing.

It has been presented
Not to me.
and ignored.
Not by me.
The effect is evidence of the cause. If the effect is life, then the cause is living,
That´s it??
So you get an infinite regress, and life has always been existing?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Stating hypotheses as fact is the cardinal sin of science. In fact, it’s not even in the domain of science. It’s pseudoscience.

That would be correct. Lucky me, I never did such a thing.

Apparently you didn't even read that peer-reviewed technical paper or even read the "Instructions to Authors" manual before making those erroneous assumptions:

https://legacy-cdn-assets.answersingenesis.org/assets/pdf/arj/instructions-to-authors.pdf
About Answers Research Journal

Sorry, I don't bother with sources that tell their workers that they cannot use the scientific method. They are worse than pseudo science.

Do you have a reliable source?

If you have nothing valuable to contribute to the discussions other than going round trolling and repeating the same empty assertions and false assumptions all over without anything substantial to contribute, it would be better for you to go and do your "better things" and let others who are open-minded enough to look at the evidence to get on with their discussions.

Please, I am not the one trolling here. You complained about pseudo science and yet you are trying to use one of the worst sources on the face of this Earth.

Once again, Answer in Genesis is a clearly bogus source. They don't even try to hide the fact that they tell their workers that they cannot use the scientific method.

Try again.
 
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pitabread

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Apparently you didn't even read that peer-reviewed technical paper or even read the "Instructions to Authors" manual before making those erroneous assumptions:

https://legacy-cdn-assets.answersingenesis.org/assets/pdf/arj/instructions-to-authors.pdf
About Answers Research Journal

They state this in their instructions:

The editor-in-chief will not be afraid to reject a paper if it does not properly satisfy the above criteria or it conflicts with the best interests of AiG as judged by its biblical stand and goals outlined in its statement of faith.

And from AiG's statement of faith:

  • By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record.

By that very definition, they aren't doing science and immediately lose any credibility as a scientific source.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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They state this in their instructions:



And from AiG's statement of faith:



By that very definition, they aren't doing science and immediately lose any credibility as a scientific source.

Academia and religion accuse each other of doing the same things. They are both categorically exclusive.

They both reject things that do not fit their standard.

They both have a hierarchy of confirmation.

They both require their unique avenues of verification.

They both work on "donations/grants" to "further" their understandings, and spread the "truth/facts."

They both stipulate credentialing standards for the laity to contribute.

They both come from formalism exploitation of methods of purity in thinking (philosophy and spirituality.)
 
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pitabread

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Once again, Answer in Genesis is a clearly bogus source. They don't even try to hide the fact that they tell their workers that they cannot use the scientific method.

And even if one deems to review their material, I'm still gobsmacked at the errors that crop up.

I mean, a purported PhD geneticist actually wrote: "Typical human telomeres are 5000 to 15,000 bases in length. An end-to-end fusion as proposed by evolutionists would give a signature of at least 10,000 bases in length..."

I mean, this is in no way something anyone familiar with what telomeres are would ever expect and certainly not something any competent geneticist would ever write. Either that author slept through the undergrad course on genetics where telomeres were discussed or they are writing nonsense for the purpose of misleading their audience.

Here's another paper which discusses telomeres and their role in maintaining chromosomal integrity (including preventing fusions): Telomeres: protecting chromosomes against genome instability

Fully intact telomeric sequences are the last thing anyone should expect to find when chromosomes undergo an end-to-end fusion.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Not a standard in science (^^^Unscientific) since any new idea could be rejected because it is not peer reviewed. No matter its merit. Peer review is used to validate the censorship because of fixed viewpoint discrimination. It is not peer reviewed, so i don't have to consider, only show bias. Under that scenario, a new technology for warp drive in space shuttles could be rejected because it is not peer reviewed and therefore unscientific. We don't have to consider your cure for AIDS because it is not peer reviewed and is therefore unscientific. Peer review restrictions can be the catalyst for dogmatists wishing to squash any new ideas that come along.

Wow! You have that backwards. New ideas in the sciences are introduced through the process of peer review. So I can see that the rest of this post is going to be pure nonsense.

''A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.'' Max Planck.
That may have been the old way. Though it was not even true in Planck's day. Do you know how long ago he said that? That is one of the reason that scientists use peer review today. Peer review as it is used now is a relatively new process. Einstein was from the pre-peer review era. Back then one presented ideas at conferences. Now we use peer review because publishing is international. Conferences are still held but wit peer reviewed literature the conference comes to you.

The magical procedure takes precedence over the validity of the material. Truth takes a back seat to formalities.


You really have no sense of irony. You are the one that believes in magic.

Which says nothing about whether the material is valid or not.

Actually it does. The peer review process is rigorous, and nothing that an amateur would want to go through. And even with that many ideas are wrong. If a person avoids peer review the reason that he does so is because he fears that he is wrong.

Think of peer review like football camp and the preseason. Rookies are put through their paces there. It is a very strenuous period for even pros. The average man on the street would be out in an hour. And even with that the number that make it to the team is about half that are invited. The best peer reviewed journals can have a rejection rate as high as 90%.

Peer review does not guarantee that an ideas is right. But it does guarantee that it is no jaw-droppingly idiotic. Guess what you rely on?

They can and have written books that are peer reviewed. Darwins Black Box was peer reviewed and so was Signature In The Cell. Any paper submitted for review can be rejected outright, and most ID papers are dead on arrival. Then the same come around and assert ID is unscientific because it is not peer reviewed. It is a catch 22.

Not really. Darwin's Black Box did not go through anything like the review that a single article woudl have. Let's see what the "reviewers" said about Behe's book:

"
Peer review controversy[edit]
In 2005, while testifying for the defense in the Dover trial, Behe claimed under oath that the book had received a more thorough peer review than a scholarly article in a refereed journal,[20] a claim which appears to conflict the facts of the book's peer review.[21] Four of the book's five reviewers (Michael Atchison, Robert Shapiro, K. John Morrow, and Russell Doolittle) have made statements that contradict or otherwise do not support Behe's claim of the book passing a rigorous peer review.

Michael Atchison
Atchison has stated that he did not review the book at all, but spent 10 minutes on the phone receiving a brief overview of the book which he then endorsed without ever seeing the text.[22]
Robert Shapiro
Shapiro has said that he reviewed the book, and while he agreed with some of its analysis of origin-of-life research, he thought its conclusions are false, though the best explanation of the argument from design that was available.[23] Had the book been submitted to a peer-reviewed journal and this comment had appeared, the review provided by Shapiro would have forced the conclusions regarding intelligent design to be changed or removed.[23]
K. John Morrow
Morrow criticized the book as appalling and unsupported, which contributed to the original publisher turning down the book for publication.[24]
Russell Doolittle
Doolittle, upon whom Behe based much of his discussion of blood clotting, described it as misrepresenting a simplified explanation he had given in a lecture, and presenting a fallacious creationist miscalculation of improbability by omitting known options,[25] which also contributed to the original publisher turning down the book for publication.[26]

Darwin's Black Box - Wikipedia
Most ID papers are dead on arrival because there is no "there there". They are poorly written articles by people that are out of their area of expertise.

And Signature in the Cell does not appear to have been peer reviewed at all.

As a rule books are not "peer reviewed" if they were almost all would be rejected because a niggling flaw, that would be objected to in an actual scientific journal peer review, would result in the book being sent back for endless corrections.

Actual peer reviewed articles tend to be as dry as toast. They are not fun to read for most people. Books are less rigorous. They are not in the same class at all.
 
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VirOptimus

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Miller-Urey type experiments have shown some mechanisms which may have produced some of the relatively simple building blocks of life, specifically including the amino acids which are used to build proteins. There are problems with these experiments in terms of them providing evidence that the first life forms could have arisen without intelligent design. Two articles which address these problems are here and here.

I will summarize what I see as perhaps the biggest problem. The main argument and lines of evidence in the OP are not affected (or affected in an extremely minimal way) even if it is allowed that all the amino acids needed to produce a biological functional protein could have been present in the same place on the earth before life existed without intervention by a Creator.

This is because the amino acids must be joined together in a highly specific sequence. The chains of amino acids which produce proteins are long and exceedingly rare. Not rare like one in a thousand or one in a billion. Rare like one in 10^53. This is MANY orders of magnitude greater than the total number of all the bacterial cells which have ever lived on earth. And you don't need just one specific, functional protein to produce life. You need many. All at the same time. In the same place. And even if they are all in the same place at the same time you are a long way from a working, living cell. A dead cell has all the needed proteins. But it will not spontaneously come back to life.

So even if we accept the success of Urey-Miller inspired experiments in producing the needed amino acids and some other chemicals, this is nowhere remotely close to what is needed to produce life and does not even address the strongest evidence and arguments given in the OP.

Write an article for peer-review.

If you cant, well its just hot air.
 
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VirOptimus

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Stating hypotheses as fact is the cardinal sin of science. In fact, it’s not even in the domain of science. It’s pseudoscience.

Apparently you didn't even read that peer-reviewed technical paper or even read the "Instructions to Authors" manual before making those erroneous assumptions:

https://legacy-cdn-assets.answersingenesis.org/assets/pdf/arj/instructions-to-authors.pdf
About Answers Research Journal

If you have nothing valuable to contribute to the discussions other than going round trolling and repeating the same empty assertions and false assumptions all over without anything substantial to contribute, it would be better for you to go and do your "better things" and let others who are open-minded enough to look at the evidence to get on with their discussions.

Thats not peer-review. Its religion.

Why the dishonesty? Face the truth.
 
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dmmesdale

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Wow! You have that backwards. New ideas in the sciences are introduced through the process of peer review. So I can see that the rest of this post is going to be pure nonsense.
Peer review, as you are using it, is an unscientific standard in the first place.
Actually it does. The peer review process is rigorous, and nothing that an amateur would want to go through. And even with that many ideas are wrong. If a person avoids peer review the reason that he does so is because he fears that he is wrong.
Garbage. Google problems with peer review. problems in peer review - Google Search
Peer review does not guarantee that an ideas is right. But it does guarantee that it is no jaw-droppingly idiotic. Guess what you rely on?
There are those words again.

Peer review controversy[edit]
In 2005, while testifying for the defense in the Dover trial, Behe claimed under oath that the book had received a more thorough peer review than a scholarly article in a refereed journal,[20] a claim which appears to conflict the facts of the book's peer review.[21] Four of the book's five reviewers (Michael Atchison, Robert Shapiro, K. John Morrow, and Russell Doolittle) have made statements that contradict or otherwise do not support Behe's claim of the book passing a rigorous peer review.
It was peer reviewed. It does not conflict anything. How can it not pass if it was not reviewed? He got negative reviews by dogmatists. Who cares.

And Signature in the Cell does not appear to have been peer reviewed at all.
peer review signature in the cell - Google Search
Intelligent Design: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories | Center for Science and Culture
As a rule books are not "peer reviewed" if they were almost all would be rejected because a niggling flaw, that would be objected to in an actual scientific journal peer review, would result in the book being sent back for endless corrections.

Actual peer reviewed articles tend to be as dry as toast. They are not fun to read for most people. Books are less rigorous. They are not in the same class at all.
They don't need it and if they are published authors their status is elevated in academia. Look at Bart Ehrmann. Obviously a heretic yet employed at a Christian university last i heard. Writing books is a valid way to circumvent the bias peer review process. Besides Meyer did have an article which underwent mainstream peer review, prior to Dover. See above.
Peer-Reviewed Articles Supporting Intelligent Design | Center for Science and Culture
These and other labs and researchers have published their work in a variety of appropriate technical venues, including peer-reviewed scientific journals, peer-reviewed scientific books (some published by mainstream university presses), trade-press books, peer-edited scientific anthologies, peer-edited scientific conference proceedings and peer-reviewed philosophy of science journals and books. These papers have appeared in scientific journals such as Protein Science, Journal of Molecular Biology, Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling, Journal of Advanced Computational Intelligence and Intelligent Informatics, Quarterly Review of Biology, Cell Biology International, Rivista di Biologia / Biology Forum, Physics of Life Reviews, Quarterly Review of Biology, Annual Review of Genetics, and many others. At the same time, pro-ID scientists have presented their research at conferences worldwide in fields such as genetics, biochemistry, engineering, and computer science.
 
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