How the Shepherd Keeps his Sheep

[KleinerApfel]

Oh, right, I'm sorry
The prodigal was a lost individual. Lost only means one thing.

The sheep however, is a sheep. He is in the 'fold'. He knows the shepherd's voice. He's in the 'flock' of the shepherd. In a shepherd's world, there are sheep and there are goats. And there are those who would try to 'steal' the sheep, or "pluck them from his hand".

So the contrast is; on one hand, the son is a lost soul whereas the sheep isn't.
And, you are adding to my words, The sheep isn't lost/wandering/errant.
The Bible DOES NOT SAY, "We all like sheep have lost/wandering/errant"
"Gone astray" is something different from being lost.

Apologies for adding to your words, I only intended to clarify what you meant but it looks like I missed!

However, I still say the lost son in the parable was doing exactly the same thing as the lost sheep.

A the start of the stories the sheep was safe at home with the Shepherd and the son was safe at home in the Father's house, so they both represent those who already know and live in the care of the Lord - ie. they are representing the children of God.

The son took his leave and went off to a far country, the sheep wandered off ignoring the shepherd's voice.

One was found and brought home by the shepherd, the other began the journey home and was met at a distance and welcomed back by the father.

Neither had their legs broken but were brought home with mercy and loving kindness and great rejoicing.

 

[KleinerApfel]

Is Hebrews 12:6 not in your Bible?

Yes, and as I posted earlier, the rod of His word is corrective to us.
The passage referred to implies the training up of a child, not the beating of him to break his bones.

 

[KleinerApfel]

"...ENDURE HARDSHIP AS CORRECTION..."

It's plain and simple what our correction really is.

SCRIPTURE IS NOT A PUNISHMENT

The punishment that brought me peace was laid upon Jesus.

I am no longer punished. Maybe that's upsetting to some of you, who feel you need it, but god doesn't punish you.

Life in a fallen world, with ourselves messing up in sin and failure, and others causing us harm, are hardships, and we learn from our mistakes and we learn to avaoid dangerous situations/people through experience, so in that sense there is teaching inherent in those trials, but that is not to say God does it to us.

I agree about scripture not being a punishment, I'm sure we all agree there.

 

[ANM29]

The LORD has disciplined me severely, But He has not given me over to death.

I can vouch for that. Severely at times and thank God he did, it his way of showing us he loves us and wants us to stay on the right path...

 

[jeolmstead]

There are many scriptures about God disciplining us. I can’t deny that they are there, and, there was a time when I thought of these in terms of how my biological father disciplined me.

Look around and you will find posts from me where I made this assertion.

I was wrong,

He speaks to us in ways we can relate to, like a good father, like a good shepherd, like a friend or brother.

But, He is done of these things. (He is much more)

So, like a father he disciplines me, but not like my Dad used to beat me.

God is not a man. His ways are not man’s ways.

So, yes I believe God disciplines us, but it is done without fear, or pain, or harm. He trains us like a athlete is trained. He directs us to freedom and excellence and most of all rest in Him.

I’m not sure any comparison to what a man does to his children is apropos.

The protocol’s father did not beat him (leaving or coming back)

Now, is their pain in this fallen world? Sure, Does God use it?, Yes, He uses everything (if we let Him) and He can make good things out of bad


John O.

 

[ANM29]

There are many scriptures about God disciplining us. I can’t deny that they are there, and, there was a time when I thought of these in terms of how my biological father disciplined me.

Look around and you will find posts from me where I made this assertion.

I was wrong,

He speaks to us in ways we can relate to, like a good father, like a good shepherd, like a friend or brother.

But, He is done of these things. (He is much more)

So, like a father he disciplines me, but not like my Dad used to beat me.

God is not a man. His ways are not man’s ways.

So, yes I believe God disciplines us, but it is done without fear, or pain, or harm. He trains us like a athlete is trained. He directs us to freedom and excellence and most of all rest in Him.

I’m not sure any comparison to what a man does to his children is apropos.

The protocol’s father did not beat him (leaving or coming back)

Now, is their pain in this fallen world? Sure, Does God use it?, Yes, He uses everything (if we let Him) and He can make good things out of bad


John O.

I agree..His discpline is not as a natural father, it is much better because the motive is growth and love, whereas a father may be anger or something.

I am not saying that it is all harsh, it depends on the person..maybe you have never done anything that needed a mayber 'harsher' handle on you, but I have. And the harshness was not bad, he just allowed me to be a victim of my own making and did not save me a few times after he TOLD ME specifically not to do something. Then there were times when I know he himself disciplined me to make sure I stayed on the straight and narrow.

So, God deals with each of us differently and none of us can speak for another. Yet, in all of his dealings with us, is is all Love motivated.

So, nobody is saying that God is beating us down literally as an abusive father would just take a Rod and beat a child, not at all. He will use correction with the rod, and scripture also tells a parent to do with a child as well, though we know of course, it is not 'literal' in the sense it would be with regards to natural parent child relationship.

 

[Tamara224]

There are many scriptures about God disciplining us. I can’t deny that they are there, and, there was a time when I thought of these in terms of how my biological father disciplined me.

Look around and you will find posts from me where I made this assertion.

I was wrong,

He speaks to us in ways we can relate to, like a good father, like a good shepherd, like a friend or brother.

But, He is done of these things. (He is much more)

So, like a father he disciplines me, but not like my Dad used to beat me.

God is not a man. His ways are not man’s ways.

So, yes I believe God disciplines us, but it is done without fear, or pain, or harm. He trains us like a athlete is trained. He directs us to freedom and excellence and most of all rest in Him.

I’m not sure any comparison to what a man does to his children is apropos.

The protocol’s father did not beat him (leaving or coming back)

Now, is their pain in this fallen world? Sure, Does God use it?, Yes, He uses everything (if we let Him) and He can make good things out of bad


John O.

But John, Scripture clearly compares God's discipline of us to the discipline a human father doles out.

My father spanked me on occassion. It hurt. But he never "beat" me. And even when he was doing it I knew it was because he loved me.

The thing is... now that I'm an adult, my father would never spank me. He would never dream of it. If he needs to correct me, he will speak to and reason with me as a friend. Such discipline as spanking is reserved for children because it is the child's immaturity that warrants it. Pain is the thing a child "relates to" or understands.

Is it not possible that God reserves painful discipline for His unruly and immature children? But as we mature, it becomes unnecessary?

Scripture clearly says that discipline is "painful"...

 

[jeolmstead]

But John, Scripture clearly compares God's discipline of us to the discipline a human father doles out.

My father spanked me on occassion. It hurt. But he never "beat" me. And even when he was doing it I knew it was because he loved me.

The thing is... now that I'm an adult, my father would never spank me. He would never dream of it. If he needs to correct me, he will speak to and reason with me as a friend. Such discipline as spanking is reserved for children because it is the child's immaturity that warrants it. Pain is the thing a child "relates to" or understands.

Is it not possible that God reserves painful discipline for His unruly and immature children? But as we mature, it becomes unnecessary?

Scripture clearly says that discipline is "painful"...

Yes, I see your point, my time in middle TN was not pleasant, even painful, and, it was discipline. But, more in line with training then correction. (Maybe a little correction too)

The problem al lot of us have is not the definition of discipline or its application. It’s the

redefinition of “Father” that causes us to stumble over the word.

My Dad is not God, nor is he even a type of God (in practical terms) So, the idea of “spanking” us as a good father does a child takes a different slant for those who were battered.

So, God may be like your Dad (if so that is a wonderful blessing) He is not like mine however and that has for years distorted my view of Him.

Anyway, that is the point I’m trying to make



John O.

 

[Tamara224]

So, God may be like your Dad (if so that is a wonderful blessing) He is not like mine however and that has for years distorted my view of Him.

Well, it's really more that my dad was God-like - not perfect, but he displayed God to his children. And yes, he was and continues to be an incredible blessing to me for which I thank God every day.

I see what you're saying, too. Scripture doesn't compare God to an abusive father, but to a loving father. I'm sure it's difficult to grasp for those who did not have a loving father and therefore associate "father" with bad things.

We just need to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[rob64]

Here's one form of God's discipline for the church;

In the NT, it says that if someone calls himself a brother, and is greedy, or fornicating, or a drunk...(I can' remember the rest) that person needs to be EXCOMMUNICATED. Or booted out of the church, and put out there in the devils territory, so that maybe he would repent. That's one of God's form of disciple.
If that were to happen today, I'm sure there would be people who would say that it is mean, and cruel.

If you want to look at it from the OT, "An eye for an eye" etc...

 

[Cassidy]

"...ENDURE HARDSHIP AS CORRECTION..."

It's plain and simple what our correction really is.

SCRIPTURE IS NOT A PUNISHMENT

I didn't say punishment I said correction.

There are times that I punish my children and times that I correct my children...two different things.

 

[Cassidy]

On the subject of training....if one was to train someone for an event, sometimes this training can hurt. Sometimes one needs to be disciplined in order to keep on the right path...eg diet - if one was to blow their diet before the big race there may be repercussions for the trainee, meaning that the trainer may put them through a more vigorous training session than normal, which would work the body and can actually cause pain to the muscles etc.

On the subject of punishment....it's correct that we are no longer punished as Christ has already endured this. But I do think that God allows certain things to happen in order to teach us a lesson. A life lesson.

No a Christian's walk is not always peaches and cream, for how is one to grow if they are never tested?? A Christian's world can indeed be shattered....and what are they going to do when all they have left is their faith?? Curse God and die? Some may! But those who have been disciplined and have reached maturity, rejoice even in their circumstance.

 

[ANM29]

Oh, right, I'm sorry
The prodigal was a lost individual. Lost only means one thing.

The sheep however, is a sheep. He is in the 'fold'. He knows the shepherd's voice. He's in the 'flock' of the shepherd. In a shepherd's world, there are sheep and there are goats. And there are those who would try to 'steal' the sheep, or "pluck them from his hand".

So the contrast is; on one hand, the son is a lost soul whereas the sheep isn't.
And, you are adding to my words, The sheep isn't lost/wandering/errant.
The Bible DOES NOT SAY, "We all like sheep have lost/wandering/errant"
"Gone astray" is something different from being lost.

Exactly! a difference between lost sheep and sheep gone astray.

 

[ANM29]

On the subject of training....if one was to train someone for an event, sometimes this training can hurt. Sometimes one needs to be disciplined in order to keep on the right path...eg diet - if one was to blow their diet before the big race there may be repercussions for the trainee, meaning that the trainer may put them through a more vigorous training session than normal, which would work the body and can actually cause pain to the muscles etc.

On the subject of punishment....it's correct that we are no longer punished as Christ has already endured this. But I do think that God allows certain things to happen in order to teach us a lesson. A life lesson.

No a Christian's walk is not always peaches and cream, for how is one to grow if they are never tested?? A Christian's world can indeed be shattered....and what are they going to do when all they have left is their faith?? Curse God and die? Some may! But those who have been disciplined and have reached maturity, rejoice even in their circumstance.

GREAT POST!!!!

 

[rob64]

I didn't say punishment I said correction.

There are times that I punish my children and times that I correct my children...two different things.

Cassidy, I'm sorry.
Someone said that God chastizes us with His word. This wasn't directed to you.

And you are totally right IMO

 

[rob64]

To everyone;
Forgive me for my sarcasm. I'm a long way from having a bridle on my tongue. Yet there's no excuse for my actions.
I am embarasingly terminating my involvement with this thread.
Sorry

 

[jeolmstead]

Well, it's really more that my dad was God-like - not perfect, but he displayed God to his children. And yes, he was and continues to be an incredible blessing to me for which I thank God every day.

I see what you're saying, too. Scripture doesn't compare God to an abusive father, but to a loving father. I'm sure it's difficult to grasp for those who did not have a loving father and therefore associate "father" with bad things.

We just need to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Another redefinition of words that trips us up is “The Rod”

As in “spare the rod and spoil the child”

As far as sheep are concerned, The purpose of the Rod was to help nudge the sheep along the path. It is also a weapon, but, it is used on the enemies of the sheep. The robbers, the wolves and such. The shepherd does not beat the sheep with it.

In this context, sparring the rod would mean not “giving direction to” and “not providing protection for”



John O.

 

[Cassidy]

To everyone;
Forgive me for my sarcasm. I'm a long way from having a bridle on my tongue. Yet there's no excuse for my actions.
I am embarasingly terminating my involvement with this thread.
Sorry

I wish you would stay

 

[ANM29]

rob64,

Why are you leaving the thread. You have made some very good points..Stay around brother.

God chastises us not just with the word, but actually in the natural as well..there are many of us who can vouch for that. It is a part of being his child, and it is all done in love. So, for those who have never experienced it, maybe they have never been a bad straying child, many of us have. It is his way of keeping us on track..you already know that.

If some want to read so far into it and say we are saying that God is abusing us, then fine, we know what we are saying.

 

[rob64]

Awwwwww....You guys.....

Trust me, The Lord has had His hands full with me. And ever so often, I feel His discipline. OK, 'feel' is a bad choice of words. Experience?
I don't for one minute think He abuses us, and I think when I mentioned "breaks a leg", it's all figurative. Of course He would never do that.
But, in spite of the input here, I had a class in Bible college on the "Life of Christ". And part of the class discussed the traditions of the Jews in those days, (where the information came from is beyond me), but the instructor said that the shepherd actually did fracture-so that there's no confusion- the leg of a wandering sheep.

I must admit that I think the Lord has 'crippled me' a time or two. Obviously not literally. But for instance, WITHIN MY WALLET !!! lol
It seems that He knows what will get our attention! lol
BUT, for the record, I can't varify that teaching. It's obviously not scriptural! (fracturing a leg)