How the Democratic Party opposes Christian Principles

clirus · Oct 20, 2007

IzzyPop quote

Can you say 'dodge the question'? Good. I thought you could.

Response

I did not dodge the question. I stated, "Thus, I would break no commandments, toss out any part of the Constitution or any other illegal activity."

Now I ask you to answer the question that I posed, "Were the people (democrats) who voted for the Iraq War uneducated??"

Nathan Poe · Oct 20, 2007

clirus said:
War is something that is authorized by congress, the representatives of the people. The Old Testament calls for the execution of a person that violates the law when the execution is authorized by the people. That is what is done today as a jury trial.

So, according to the Old Testament -- whenever a government declares war, it's moral and the people should support it?

When congress authorizes a war, they should be very aware of what a war represents.

And should they fail in that respect, and be led into a war not worth fighting, do they not have a right, some would argue an obligation, to put their mistake right?

America fought WW II and used both fire bombs and nuclear weapons that killed 50,000 people in a single raid.

The morality of which could still be debated. Although in hindsight, it could be seen as a necessary evil.

Please note those words: necessary evil.

The degree of torture is not know because there was total censorship in WW II.

So, is torture that we don't know about moral? Does making it secret make it right?

If we uncovered documents that confirm the widespread use of torture during WWII -- would you praise it or condemn it?

Were the people who voted for the Iraq War uneducated??

Most likely. How about you?

There is nowhere in the Bible that condones an individual taking the life of another individual except as authorized by the congregation. Thus, I would break no commandments, toss out any part of the Constitution or any other illegal activity.

vox populii, vox dei.

I seem to have been mistaken about you, clirus. In matters of morality and ethics, I thought you followed God. Instead you follow mob rule -- if enough people say it's moral, you agree.

I however have the right to vote and I have freedom of speech, and I intend to use those rights to influence as many people as possible that the Christian Lifestyle is a healthy lifestyle and the Atheistic Lifestyle is an unhealthy lifestyle.

f this were WWII, the total censorship you crave would most likely shut you up. Ironic, isn't it?

I hope to prevent democrats from being elected to any government office because of the democratic party support for extreme environmentalism, socialism, feminism, pornography, abortion, homosexuality and the Atheistic Lifestyle.

And the rest of us hope to use the freedom of speech you would deny us to show how incredibly wrong you are.

So far, we're succeeding -- you're failing.

elanor · Oct 20, 2007

elanor said:
Please site the chapter and verse for this.

Still waiting here, clirus. Please site where the Bible says this:

The Old Testament of the Bible tells Christians that war is necessary and authorizes what ever it takes to win.

Rudolph Hucker, your answer is off-base. The song of celebration that Moses and the Israelites sang when God delivered them from captivity does not equate to one nation declaring war on another and doing anything to win it.

clirus · Oct 21, 2007

To Nathan Poe

Yes, according to the Old Testament (and the Constitution of America) -- whenever the government declares war, it's moral and the people should support it. There is a Uniform Code of Military Justice that defines the conduct of soldiers, but any action taken by a soldier as a part of the war is moral. This does not allow killing by a soldier, but it allows execution as a part of the military action.

Some may consider the actions taken in WW II that were required to win the war as evil, but I do not. I am sure torture was used in WW II and I consider that to be a requirement of winning the war. I neither praise or condemn what happened in WW II nor any other war.

If people don't want what is involved in a war, don't enter into the war. People that enter into war, not knowing what is involved in war, are not intelligent and not capable of leading America in either foreign or domestic policy.

Success or failure will be judged in the Nov 2008 election where the American people have the right to elect democrats that will advocate the Atheistic Lifestyle or Republicans that will advocate the Christian Lifestyle.

clirus · Oct 21, 2007

elanor quote

Still waiting here, clirus. Please site where the Bible says this:

Response

The Old Testament allows the people of a nation to go to war.

Numbers 21:3 "And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah"

Deuteronomy 2:33-34, "And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."

I don't believe God desires war, but at some point evil must be confronted.

I believe the Bible teaches all things should be dealt with by the following three levels of action;
1) If it is good - accept it and nourish it.
2) If it is evil - reject it but tolerate it.
3) If it threatens your existence - destroy it before it destroys you. This is self defense, which both the individual and society have a right and responsibility to do.

The first two are from the New Testament of the Bible and represent the Law of Love. The third is from the Old Testament of the Bible and represents the Law of Purity/Self Defense. The New Testament deals more with personal responsibility and the Old Testament deals more with the preservation of society. The Old Testament and the New Testament together present God's Law, a means of survival for a person, a nation and a world.

The process used in America to insure that the correct people are executed (the decision to go from tolerance to destruction) is the jury process and the authorization of war by congress. No process is ever perfect, but the choice is society/civilization or an imperfect jury/congressional process.

Christians should warn people (be salt and light), Civil Law should control, restrict, destroy, force, etc. people. Christians should advocate that which is good and healthy for society as described in the Bible. Civil Law should control, restrict, destroy, force, etc. that which is harmful (disease, death and destruction) to society. Congress (as the representatives of the people) defines Civil Law. If the laws that Congress defines are consistent with the Christian Lifestyle (God's Law), the people who practice evil will suffer. If the laws that Congress defines are consistent with the Atheistic Lifestyle, everyone will suffer. Civil Law consistent with the Atheistic Lifestyle cause suffering for everyone because the Christens suffer under the law, and the Atheists suffer because of the sin they practice. Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Separation of Church and State means the Church should not execute, control, restrict, destroy, force, etc. and the State should not legalize sin by legalizing those things that the Bible clearly calls evil. The State should not participate in social programs that facilitate sin or reward sinful behavior.

clirus · Oct 21, 2007

Social Issue Neutrality (S I N) Policy

There is a Cultural War in America between Christians and Atheists. This war is being fought on the battlefield of politics. The battles are in the voting booth. The prize in the cultural war is the hearts, minds and souls of the children. The Atheistic liberal news media greatly influences both domestic and foreign policy by constantly reporting only bad news about Christians, conservatives and Republicans and only good news about atheists, liberals and democrats. The agenda of the Atheistic liberal news media is to promote extreme environmentalism, socialism, feminism, pornography, abortion, homosexuality and the Atheistic Lifestyle by having democrats in control of government.

The Cultural War is not confined to politics. Activist Atheists have forced business to endorse their positions and businesses have done so to prevent bad news coverage. Christians are now questioning the endorsements and telling businesses to stop the endorsements.

It would be best if businesses issued a statement of Social Issue Neutrality. This statement should proclaim the business will not offer any support (verbal, financial, etc.) to any social issues unless approved by stock holders voting. Employees of the company can do what they think appropriate, however the resources of the company should not to be used.

Most business are in stiff competition with global companies and should not be spending resources on anything that does not contribute to the bottom line health of the company.

A Social Issue Neutrality policy would be the lowest cost option and should keep both sides from punishing the company.

http://www.hrc.org/issues/ceihome.asp

The "sixth annual Corporate Equality Index, which examines and evaluates corporate policies affecting gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender employees throughout the country" is an example of how companies are being manipulated. One could imagine, that if a company was gay friendly then it is not Christian friendly, thus Christians should not be involved with that company.

An economic war on businesses over social issues would hurt all businesses. Best to leave social issues to politics where the people have a right to vote to decide social issues.

Nathan Poe · Oct 21, 2007

clirus said:
To Nathan Poe

Yes, according to the Old Testament (and the Constitution of America) -- whenever the government declares war, it's moral and the people should support it. There is a Uniform Code of Military Justice that defines the conduct of soldiers, but any action taken by a soldier as a part of the war is moral. This does not allow killing by a soldier, but it allows execution as a part of the military action.

Now, here's where things get tricky. You see, all this time, I thought it was God who was the final arbiter of what was or what was not moral. Now You're telling me that He's given such absolute wisdom to whatever politico we elect to office.

And nowhere in the Constitution is "morality" mentioned. Are you suggesting that anything sanctioned by the government is automatically moral?

Some may consider the actions taken in WW II that were required to win the war as evil, but I do not. I am sure torture was used in WW II and I consider that to be a requirement of winning the war. I neither praise or condemn what happened in WW II nor any other war.

So, you think torture is moral. That's a Christian principle that should be opposed by all Christians.

If people don't want what is involved in a war, don't enter into the war. People that enter into war, not knowing what is involved in war, are not intelligent and not capable of leading America in either foreign or domestic policy.

We did not enter into this war -- the Bush administration did. However, they are not the ones fighting the war -- our sons and daughters are.

Success or failure will be judged in the Nov 2008 election where the American people have the right to elect democrats that will advocate the Atheistic Lifestyle or Republicans that will advocate the Christian Lifestyle.

You've already demonstrated how the Christian Lifestyle endorses torture. The Atheists seem far more moral.

Nathan Poe · Oct 21, 2007

clirus said:
One could imagine, that if a company was gay friendly then it is not Christian friendly, thus Christians should not be involved with that company.

One would imagine incorrectly. A company that is gay friendly would probably not be bigot-friendly, thus bigots would not be involved with that company. I fail to see the down side.

Would that include Christians? Some, perhaps. Why should I care?

SimplyMe · Oct 21, 2007

clirus said:
To Nathan Poe

Yes, according to the Old Testament (and the Constitution of America) -- whenever the government declares war, it's moral and the people should support it. There is a Uniform Code of Military Justice that defines the conduct of soldiers, but any action taken by a soldier as a part of the war is moral. This does not allow killing by a soldier, but it allows execution as a part of the military action.

Some may consider the actions taken in WW II that were required to win the war as evil, but I do not. I am sure torture was used in WW II and I consider that to be a requirement of winning the war. I neither praise or condemn what happened in WW II nor any other war.

If people don't want what is involved in a war, don't enter into the war. People that enter into war, not knowing what is involved in war, are not intelligent and not capable of leading America in either foreign or domestic policy.

Success or failure will be judged in the Nov 2008 election where the American people have the right to elect democrats that will advocate the Atheistic Lifestyle or Republicans that will advocate the Christian Lifestyle.

Actually, it is untrue that the UCMJ justifies the actions of soldiers in wartime. One prime example is Lt. Calley, who was convicted of murder under the UCMJ for his actions in the Vietnam war. In fact, his defense was that he was ordered to commit these killings by his superior, but per the UCMJ the order does not matter, you are only required to obey "lawful orders". Another good example is Abu Ghraib, where the soldiers claimed they were only following orders when they abused prisoners. While some latitude is allowed in wartime, soldiers can be and are convicted of following orders that are clearly wrong.

Nathan Poe · Oct 21, 2007

Since you believe that the ends justify the means in wartime -- torture, censorship, and all that -- and since you seem to think that America is in a cultural war --

Suppose you could tip the balance of the cultural war permanently and irrevocably to Christian Principles, but to do so, you yourself would have to permanently and irrevocably deconvert?

Would you do it, clirus? If it came to that, would you become an Atheist (or Muslim, or Buddhist, or whatever) to resuce Christianity?

clirus · Oct 21, 2007

Nathan Poe quote

Now, here's where things get tricky. You see, all this time, I thought it was God who was the final arbiter of what was or what was not moral. Now You're telling me that He's given such absolute wisdom to whatever politico we elect to office.

And nowhere in the Constitution is "morality" mentioned. Are you suggesting that anything sanctioned by the government is automatically moral?

Response

God authorizes a nation to go to war (execute another nation) and a jury to execute a person. This is only authorized when the assembly (the people of the nation or their authorized representatives congress or a jury). God wrote the Bible to let people know what was good and evil. Christians need to be very concerned about who is elected to office because the Bible says Christians must obey the government that has been established by the election.

A government can be very immoral if the people elect immoral leaders. When Civil Law is consistent with God's Law, the people will be prosperous. When Civil Law is inconsistent with God's Law the people will suffer.

Nathan Poe quote

So, you think torture is moral. That's a Christian principle that should be opposed by all Christians.

Response

Torture as a tool to obtain victory in a war is just another part of war. A bomb, a tank, and a gun are tools to obtain victory in a war. The least necessary tool should be used, but whatever it takes to win is necessary. In WW II it took fire bombs and nuclear weapons to win. Torture anywhere other than a war is illegal.

If people do not want to fight a war they should just surrender to begin with. It is a traitor that commits to a war, then cuts and runs.

Nathan Poe quote

We did not enter into this war -- the Bush administration did. However, they are not the ones fighting the war -- our sons and daughters are.

Response

Now that is just a lie. President Bush has followed the Constitution. The Atheistic Liberal News Media and democrats are the ones that became traitors when they began to criticize the Iraq war in order to win political elections.

Nathan Poe quote

Suppose you could tip the balance of the cultural war permanently and irrevocably to Christian Principles, but to do so, you yourself would have to permanently and irrevocably deconvert?

Would you do it, clirus? If it came to that, would you become an Atheist (or Muslim, or Buddhist, or whatever) to resuce Christianity?

Response

No

clirus · Oct 21, 2007

SimplyMe quote

Actually, it is untrue that the UCMJ justifies the actions of soldiers in wartime. One prime example is Lt. Calley, who was convicted of murder under the UCMJ for his actions in the Vietnam war. In fact, his defense was that he was ordered to commit these killings by his superior, but per the UCMJ the order does not matter, you are only required to obey "lawful orders". Another good example is Abu Ghraib, where the soldiers claimed they were only following orders when they abused prisoners. While some latitude is allowed in wartime, soldiers can be and are convicted of following orders that are clearly wrong.

Response

Apparently my wording was not good because you are correct. The UCMJ does not allow a soldier to act on their own nor follow orders that are clearly wrong.

My main point about dealing with war is that Civil Law is not applicable but the UCMJ exists to deal with situations of war.

War should be the last resort, but when a nation or an individual is in danger, then removal of the threat is justified. If the threat can be removed by an angry look, then that is all that is needed, however if war is necessary, that is what was needed.

Nathan Poe · Oct 21, 2007

clirus said:
God authorizes a nation to go to war (execute another nation) and a jury to execute a person.

The God of the OT has always been more of a "summary execution" type -- Since when is trial by jury sanctioned by God?

This is only authorized when the assembly (the people of the nation or their authorized representatives congress or a jury).

So much for God. Who needs Him anyway, then?

God wrote the Bible to let people know what was good and evil.

I'm sorry to hear that -- the author of the Bible did a very poor job. I'd be very hesitant to foist the blame on God for such a dated document.

Our own Constituion, OTOH, is far better, and was clearly written by mere mortals.

Christians need to be very concerned about who is elected to office because the Bible says Christians must obey the government that has been established by the election.

So, majority rules, and God is irrelevent.

A government can be very immoral if the people elect immoral leaders. When Civil Law is consistent with God's Law, the people will be prosperous. When Civil Law is inconsistent with God's Law the people will suffer.

But doesn't Romans say that all governments (including "immoral" ones) are established by God?

Torture as a tool to obtain victory in a war is just another part of war. A bomb, a tank, and a gun are tools to obtain victory in a war. The least necessary tool should be used, but whatever it takes to win is necessary. In WW II it took fire bombs and nuclear weapons to win. Torture anywhere other than a war is illegal.

According to the law, torture in a war is illegal too.

Why are you so pro-torture? Is that what Jesus taught?

If people do not want to fight a war they should just surrender to begin with. It is a traitor that commits to a war, then cuts and runs.

Which is why I consider Bush to be a traitor -- he began this war to defend American principles, then he cut and ran -- used every means at his disposal to abandon those same principles.

In the America I know, no man is above the law -- not the president nor anyone else.
The America I know does not torture.
The America I know fights to protect the rights and liberties of its people.

This is not Bush's America -- if the "Christian Lifestyle" means more of this, then I have every reason on Earth to oppose it.

Now that is just a lie. President Bush has followed the Constitution. The Atheistic Liberal News Media and democrats are the ones that became traitors when they began to criticize the Iraq war in order to win political elections.

DRINK!

Now, got anything of substance to refute me?

No

So much for "Doing whatever it takes to win." I guess you just can't walk the walk, clirus.

You declare "Cultural war," but when told what it takes to win, you cut and run.

By your own definition, that makes you a traitor.

Why then, should anyone listen to you?

Nathan Poe · Oct 21, 2007

clirus said:
My main point about dealing with war is that Civil Law is not applicable but the UCMJ exists to deal with situations of war.

"Civil Law" -- You keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means.

But, in the interest of giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll ask you to define "Civil Law."

P.S. Why aren't you willing to do whatever it takes to win the cultural war?

Rudolph Hucker · Oct 22, 2007

Do those who approve torture "by us" have the same support when it comes to torture "by them"?

clirus · Oct 22, 2007

Nathan Poe quote

P.S. Why aren't you willing to do whatever it takes to win the cultural war?

Response

I am doing every legal thing that I know to win the Cultural War for Christians.

The Cultural War has not been authorized by the representatives of the congregation so far, so I am very limited as to what is legal.

I fight as a soldier in the Christian Army.

Ephesians 6:10-20 "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel. For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak."

Nathan Poe · Oct 22, 2007

clirus said:
Nathan Poe quote

P.S. Why aren't you willing to do whatever it takes to win the cultural war?

Response

I am doing every legal thing that I know to win the Cultural War for Christians.

The Cultural War has not been authorized by the representatives of the congregation so far, so I am very limited as to what is legal.

I fight as a soldier in the Christian Army.

Legal? Since when did you worry about that? Seems to me like you're calling for sacrifice from everyone except yourself.

You'd gladly cheer on torture as "whatever it takes, but wouldn't even have the courage to deconvert if it meant victory?

I offered you a chance for unconditional victory, and scampered away from it like a kicked dog. Only a traitor and a coward cuts and runs, clirus.

clirus · Oct 23, 2007

Nathan Poe quote

I offered you a chance for unconditional victory, and scampered away from it like a kicked dog. Only a traitor and a coward cuts and runs, clirus.

Response

Luke 4:1-13 states: "And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. 5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, [1] all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: 11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season."

Nathan Poe · Oct 23, 2007

clirus said:
Nathan Poe quote

I offered you a chance for unconditional victory, and scampered away from it like a kicked dog. Only a traitor and a coward cuts and runs, clirus.

Response

Luke 4:1-13 states: "And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. 5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, [1] all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: 11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season."

So, you're Jesus now?

You call on everyone else to make sacrifices, but you yourself offer up nothing but excuses why you're not "doing whatever is necessary" to win this imaginary cultural war.

If such a war is taking place -- and I have no reason to believe you -- then your own contribution is absolutely nil.

When you can answer, in your own words, why you can't do "whatever it takes," then perhaps you can be taken seriously. Because if the stakes are as high as you imagine them to be, the last thing the Christian side needs is another armchair general.

So, why won't you do whatever it takes, clirus? What could you possibly have that's more important than the Christian Lifestyle?

Voegelin · Oct 23, 2007

How the Democratic Party opposes Christian Principles

Think I found the first written example of Democrats (they were called Republicans or Republican/Democrats in those days) complaining about being called godless.

In an "Oration Delievered in Wallingford on the 11th of March 1801, before the Republicans of the State of Connecticut, at their General Thanksgiving for the Election of Thomas Jefferson" Abraham Bishop said:

"President Jefferson has been called an infidel philosopher . . . democrats have been called atheists"

(in fact the word "democrat" entered national political debate as an attack, a comparison of the followers of Jefferson with the Jacobins of the French Revolution....that is why most in the faction insisted on being called "Republican").

Source of quote: Separation of Church and State by Philip Hamburger

How the Democratic Party opposes Christian Principles

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