How the Democratic Party opposes Christian Principles

Is it a Christian principle to file lawsuits against yourself?

Those aren't Christian Republicans suing or threatening to sue in Federal court to tear down Christian crosses,tear down Ten Commandments monuments, remove Nativity scenes from town greens, silence Christmas carols, prohibit prayers at school board meetings, kick the Boy Scouts out of public schools because the Scouts mention "God" etc...etc...

Voegelin said:

Is it a Christian principle to file lawsuits against yourself?

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Against yourself, no; I'm not sure that's technically possible, though.

If you meant "against another Christian," then of course it is. Christians are just as capable of breaking the law as anyone else.

Those aren't Christian Republicans suing or threatening to sue in Federal court to tear down Christian crosses,tear down Ten Commandments monuments, remove Nativity scenes from town greens, silence Christmas carols, prohibit prayers at school board meetings, kick the Boy Scouts out of public schools because the Scouts mention "God" etc...etc...

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No! Curses! You've discovered the truth - we're NOT Christians who take seriously the American principle that the government shouldn't favor one religion on public spaces above others!

In fact, we're all evil atheists in disguise who want to make Christians' lives miserable because we're bitter about being homosexual Communist drug-using terr'ists! (plus we're also CRAB PEOPLE!!!) And now you've uncovered and foiled our evil plan!

Curses and drat! But you haven't seen the last of us, Voegelin!!!

As an aside, how many Republican presidential candidate hopefuls are still with their first wives?

RudolphHucker said:

As an aside, how many Republican presidential candidate hopefuls are still with their first wives?

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The one who's not an orthodox Christian.

clirus said:

America has many times favored Christianity by putting "In God We Trust" on our money, "One nation under God" in our pledge of allegiance, and by the court oath that a person will tell the truth.

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Which God would that be, again?

clirus said:

"Purity" doesn't allow for any compromise, however the Law of Love of the New Testament does allow for tolerance. Christians are to live in accordance with the Law of Love of the New Testament.

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And nothing in America's current Civil Law is stopping you. There is no reason to invoke the law of purity.

From what I read in the Bible, God tolerated Israel until they turned to idols.

The question for America is whether the government is an idol.

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The question for you is, what are you gonig to do about it if you think it is? Make it your own idol?

God cannot tolerate sin, thus for anyone to be in heaven with God, there must be a payment for sin. For Jews it was the sacrifice of an animal, for Christians it was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

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Why must there be a payment for sin? Can't God forgive without bloodshed?

If a person does not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, God places them in hell for eternity, because the sin debt has not been paid.

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Meaning that no matter what laws you place me under, God will still send me to Hell. Forcing me to live a "Christian Lifestyle" with all it's prohibitions, will not make me a Christian. God knows the difference, and He does not let you into Heaven for just going through the motions -- or for forcing others to do so.

So, if I'm right, your argument is pointless. If you're right, your argument is equally pointless. We're going to Hell no matter what.

Yes, both Christians and Atheists define Civil Law. When Civil Law is consistent with the Bible, all people will benefit. If Civil Law is not consistent with the Bible all people suffer.

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The majority of people (those who are not "true Christians") will suffer either way if you're right. Why pretend to worship the Bible when, as Mark Twain put it, "you can't pray a lie."

Besides, can you give an example of how exactly you're suffering now, while others are free to live the Atheist lifestyle?

The way to make sure Civil Law is consistent with the Bible, is for Christians to elect people that support Christian Principles. Republicans have yet to prove to me that they really support Christian principles, but democrats have proven they do "not" support Christian Principles.

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Yes, you've said this before. This means that it's utterly impossible for you to implement your vision of America.

Which is, without a doubt, the most reassuring news I've heard yet, it makes your argument even more pointless.

What I try to present is that America has been a good nation that was consistent with the Bible, but that there have been recent events that have started to change that relationship. The Old Testament and the New Testament together present God's Law, a means of survival for a person, a nation and a world.

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As you present this, it becomes abundantly clear that you don't know your history very well. When has America been "consistent with the Bible"?

Survival for the world, a nation and a person begins with the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior by the person.

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Not going to happen -- too many people in this nation such as myself are going to exercise their free will to not "Accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior." And there's nothing you can do to change that. Which makes your argument even more pointless.

Your response?

clirus said:

There is a great difference between favor and establish.

America has many times favored Christianity by putting "In God We Trust" on our money, "One nation under God" in our pledge of allegiance, and by the court oath that a person will tell the truth.

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I don't see that as favoring Christianity; I see that as favoring theism.

And if you don't accept that the Founding Fathers intended for a separation between Church and State - which would be absolutely ludicrous, considering their writings and rhetoric about religion - then at the very least, an understanding of history ought to illustrate for you the danger of a nation favoring one religion above another.

Nathan Poe said:

Which God would that be, again?

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They are referring to the God that created the universe, I think, regardless of attributes you believe It has. Because most people believe in the basic laws of science; they do not believe the universe just popped into existence of its own. You are free to believe that matter pops out of nowhere for no reason, but please civilly respect that most people do not agree with you.

KarateCowboy said:

They are referring to the God that created the universe, I think, regardless of attributes you believe It has.

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Which brings us back to the question: Which God?

The God as depicted in the Old Testament?
The God as depicted in the New Testament?
The God as depicted in the Koran?
That God that manifests Himself as an English Sheepdog named "Bosko"?

Why should any one deity in the Pantheon get preferential governmental treatment?

Because most people believe in the basic laws of science; they do not believe the universe just popped into existence of its own. You are free to believe that matter pops out of nowhere for no reason, but please civilly respect that most people do not agree with you.

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What does this have to do with the discussion?

Clirus>> but you are seapking as if all homoexuls have aids, and its ONLY homosexual that carry aids. Is it okay for a heterosexual carrying hiv to have sex freely though?

So according to your logic, Congress should have the power to ban soft-drinks because they cause tooth decay, stomach ulcers, and promote obesity a disease. According to your logic, congress should restrict everyone's food intake, as over-eating causes obesity, diabetes, disease, death, etc, etc. According to your logic, all forms of alchol should be banned, for alcohol IS a poison. Tobacco, a multi-billion dollar enterprise, should be banned and offendors be punished. According to your logic, CARS should be banned because they emit pollution, and pollution causes cancer, and because more people die in autoaccidents than the iraq war eveyr day, all automobiles should be banned.

Your logic is confusing and absolutely holds no solid ground.

Christians should be light and oppose evil things (such as cars, wine, cigars, soft-drinks and twinkies- you may call these things evil, but I'd think you're a grade-A psychopath if you honestly think these things are evil) but WHERES the middle ground?! Is there no such thing as moderatism nowadays? Or is it always radicalism?

According to Jesus, YOU, my friend, are supposed to love homosexuals as one should love their own children. No one is unworthy of God's love, but we all deserve His judgement just the same.

Christ opposes radicalism.

ONEGod:
Our forefathers made it abundantly clear we are and were birthed as a Judeo-Christian nation, and how clearly they told us so.


"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."
–John Quincy Adams [July 4th, 1821]

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
-James Madison [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

"It is impossible for the man of pious reflection not to perceive in it [the Constitution] a finger of that Almighty hand which has been so frequently and signally extended to our relief in the critical stages of the revolution."
-James Madison, Federalist No. 37, January 11, 1788

"In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?" –
-Benjamin Franklin [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

"I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation."
-George Washington, circular letter of farewell to the Army, June 8, 1783

" The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests."
-Alexander Hamilton [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

ONEGod said:

ONEGod:
Our forefathers made it abundantly clear we are and were birthed as a Judeo-Christian nation, and how clearly they told us so.

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Indeed, especially that part where Thomas Jefferson published a version of the New Testament without any miracles or supernatural happenings in it - not to mention the part where Benjamin Franklin said that he doubted Jesus' Divinity.

Yeeeeeeup...it don't get much more Judeo-Christian than that.

most of the forefathers were deists, not fundamental christians.

also, they would agree with separation of church and state, just so long as that separation reflects genuines christian values, such as freedom, the right to choose, the right to lead your own life, and the right to persue life, liberty, and happiness.

Most of the forefathers, however, were deists, as in, they believed in God, but they didn't know 'whos' God it was.

clirus said:

America has many times favored Christianity by putting "In God We Trust" on our money, "One nation under God" in our pledge of allegiance, and by the court oath that a person will tell the truth.

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Originally "In God We Trust" was not on our currency. It did not appear until 1864 on the two-cent piece. It was not considered our "national motto" until 1956.

When the Pledge of Allegiance was first composed in 1892, the words "Under God" were not in it. On of the more popular theories behind the Pledge was that its intent was to united our nations after the Civil War. The words "Under God" did not appear until 1954.

The United States was not founded to be an officially Christian nation or to espouse any official religion. I see it as a sign of disrespect that Christian fought to place the words "Under God" in our Pledge and "God we Trust" on our currency. It is obvious that this "God" is the Christian God since it was Christians who fought for these words. It is blatant disrespect for others who do not believe in their God.

ONEGod said:

ONEGod:
Our forefathers made it abundantly clear we are and were birthed as a Judeo-Christian nation, and how clearly they told us so.

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Another historical perversion by a Christian to make a false claim.

I am not going to start a "quote war" with you, but history shows that many of our Founding Fathers were Deists and that the United Sates was not founded on or to espouse any religion.

Membership in a church does not automatically prove belief in the creeds of that church. I would feel like a hypocrite belonging to an organization if I really did not believe in it's tenets, but many people do and for many reasons. I believe that some of our founding fathers attended church because they felt it was their civic and cultural duty. Back in those times a "gentleman" attended a respectable church. Belonging to a church showed you were connected to the community, it showed you were upstanding and moral (LOL), and it showed you were a person of means (how much you could pay for a pew). Few were willing to buck convention and express radical ideas openly-- look at how Thomas Paine was treated.

The best way to understand the religious beliefs of our founding fathers is to read their writings-- public and personal. For many of them there was a veneer of Christianity. That was the polite, respectable, civilized manner in which a gentleman conducted himself. However, their writings reveal a much more critical and skeptical veiw of organized religion. Some were more outspoken, like Ethan Allen, Franklin, and Jefferson, while others were more subdued, like Washington and Adams.

I think it should also be pointed out that they faced 3 major issues at once: revealed religion, politics and slavery. They sacrificed two in order to accomplish one in hopes that the other two would be dealt with later. Hypocritical, yeah, but they accomplished what they did politically only with a great deal of luck as it was.

Thinking about where we'd be if they hadn't taken the path they'd did makes me shudder. The heartbreak of compromise. It's hard for me to judge them there and then. As Lee pointed out, look at what they did to Paine just taking on a second issue after the first had been consolidated.

Read your history without your Christian bias and you will see a different picture.

ONEGod said:

ONEGod:
Our forefathers made it abundantly clear we are and were birthed as a Judeo-Christian nation, and how clearly they told us so.

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This is false. A good percentage of the Founding Fathers were Deist. Many of the United States' Founding Fathers were influenced by European Enlightenment-era ideas, particularly in the religious sphere (Deism) and, in parallel with classical liberalism, and in the political sphere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

ONEGod said:

ONEGod:
Our forefathers made it abundantly clear we are and were birthed as a Judeo-Christian nation, and how clearly they told us so.


"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."
–John Quincy Adams [July 4th, 1821]

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
-James Madison [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

"It is impossible for the man of pious reflection not to perceive in it [the Constitution] a finger of that Almighty hand which has been so frequently and signally extended to our relief in the critical stages of the revolution."
-James Madison, Federalist No. 37, January 11, 1788

"In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?" –
-Benjamin Franklin [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

"I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation."
-George Washington, circular letter of farewell to the Army, June 8, 1783

" The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests."
-Alexander Hamilton [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

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Wow. It's sad that so many have ignored this whole post.

also, our money says "novo ordo seclurum" which basically translates to New Secular Order.

doesn't that soud a bit antithetical to "In God We Trust?"