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How the C&E debate has changed my beliefs

Edx

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I believe that a lot more ground has to be covered before you portray Christians as "naive", ".

*snip*. Not all Christians are Creationists. Most people that accept Evolution are religious.

This is particularly so, when we bear in mind that some secular and atheist scholars have rejected evolutionists' views.

I dare say you even have some quote mined quotes to prove that.

My understanding is that there are huge, huge gaps in evolutionary theory when it comes to explaining how life could have arisen though chance processes.

Is chemistry and physics chance processes? When you combine oxygen and hydrogen molecules and create water, is that chance? Well in a sence yes, but not in the "random chance" way you are using the word.

In fact, such an outcome is so improbable it could be regarded as 'virtually impossible'.


Its improbable I walk outside and get struck by lightening and die, but improbable things happen all the time every single day. Ive even heard statistics that a certian percentage of people die while putting thier socks on in the morning. Thats pretty crazy. Not sure how that happens. The death of Steve Irwin is quite improbable, considering what killed him was a creature where only 3 other recorded people had been killed by it. People surving inside the collapsed rubble of the WTC is improbable but it happened. But of course knowing you that have no idea what you are talking about when you say such things means this will go over your head.

Contemporary theories of chemical evolution
Abiogenesis. No matter how much you want to lump every single science you disagree with into "Evolution" its not going to make it so.

do not seem to solve this problem, as they posit the chance formation of other highly complex chemical compounds, in structures that then make the transition to protein-based life.

Again with this "chance" rubbish.

While this obstacle does not disprove the Theory of Evolution...
...or say anything at all about the validity of the theory of Evolution.

(psst... Evolution is biology, abiogenesis is mostly chemistry)

It seems quite likely that no satisfactory explanation will ever be found for how mere laws of physics and chemistry could put together the very specific and complex component parts of 'early life'.

For YECs especially nothing will be good enough. AIG and ICR have to actually sign sworn statements never to let any evidence change their minds. Fancy that. Talk to most Creationists long enough and you get the same admission. Course there are some Creationists that are simply ignorent, and with them you dont generally get this attitude. YECs are however the worst offenders, which makes sence; they are the most extreme.

There is also a cash prize on offer to anyone who can adequately demonstrate how a single-celled organism could have evolved from scratch (Creation Magazine).

OOh ooh, is that Kent-taxevadingfakePhD-Hovind challege? Even if it isnt since in science nothing is absolute and since these guys have to sign sworn statements of faith that say they will never allow any evidence change their minds, they can deny whatever they like. Some challenge.

I find a problem with you logic here. You say that science does not deal with the supernatural. But if the empirical evidence suggests that there exists an intelligent designer we call "God", how can the scientific community ignore such evidence and remain objective?


Except there is no empircal evidence that suggests the supernatural. Science cant deal with the supernatural because supernatural assumptions cant be tested or even hypothetically verified in any way whatsoever. The ID movement claims in a nudge nudge wink wink kind of a way that (natural) aliens could be the Intelligent Designer, and I agree. This is something I did actually believe for a bit in my early teens, mostly because I was bored... but the point is it would be fun and I wouldnt object to it. Sure would make things more interesting.

So we should ask the question, if aliens created us how can we validate this hypothesis? Well the ID movement arent doing any research to prove their point, all they are doing is lobbying school boards, writing anti-evolution books, doing lectures to groups of other ID supporters and churches and presenting misleading claims about their agenda and the state of science. They should accept their position for what it is. If I believed aliens created us, I'd still say the ID "theory" is bad science. And thats assuming a NATURAL designer, let alone a supernatural one. Bottom line is if you could find a way to verify supernatural assumptions you can have a reason to change the scientific method. Right now, you just want to change it because it isnt supporting your faith. That isnt a scientific reason.

Such a lack of objectivity cannot be rational - it is tunnel vision. It is a form of intellectual suicide, in that it rejects a plausible alternative line of explanation that finds some support in scientific data.

Its not a scientific alternative.

Thus, when scientists such as Michael Behe argue from the evidence of design in the human body, to the possible existence of an Intelligent Designer, their voice should be heard.

They've been heard many times. They dont produce any research, they dont write for peer review, they dont present their ideas to the scientific community in the proper fashion. Writing books and trying to sidestep the scientific method with lawyers is not the scientific method. And about Behe, he was asked in the Dover trial if ID was a scientific theory, he answered yes. However he had to admit that his definition of a scientific theory was so broad that astrology would be considered a theory.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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The fact remains that science could (and I think does) provide evidence of God and even certain characteristics of the Deity, which would offer an alternative explanation of our origins. We may not be able to progress very far beyond that point, but it would be lacking in scientific objectivity and intellectual integrity to fail to represent such a position.

ok. pick one of those characteristics.
show us specifically how the universe provides evidence for that characteristic. now link that characteristic to God.
how do you make that linkage?
using the information you gained from studying the universe or from somewhere else?
does every Christian perform this task exactly the same way that you do? that is, can you convince all Christians that God has this particular characteristic?

try it, it is far more difficult than you think.
do the exercise here and see how almost no one will agree with you, why not, if the characteristic is clearly seen in the physical universe? why doesn't everyone not see the same thing as you do?
 
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Chalnoth

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The fact remains that science could (and I think does) provide evidence of God and even certain characteristics of the Deity, which would offer an alternative explanation of our origins. We may not be able to progress very far beyond that point, but it would be lacking in scientific objectivity and intellectual integrity to fail to represent such a position.
The problem is, how would you represent such a position? We don't put any god into science because it can't be done. If you disagree, well, we've had threads on this very subject. Feel free to post there how you would insert God into science.

I might make the case that evolution itself is not strictly visible, accesible or its activities obvious, because it supposedly occurs too gradualistically, and over too great a span of time, to be observed. Currently you can only speculate from the empirical data that evolution is true, but equally you might infer the existence of a Designer.
Except it is observed. It has been observed from single beneficial mutations being spread throughout a population to speciation. The genetic material of living animals also has exceedingly strong evidence of common ancestry, a strong prediction of evolutionary theory (and before you even try, evidence for common ancestry is not always evidence for common design: look up some ERV threads).

Now, your problem seems to be that evolution can't explain everything about how life arose. But this is rather putting the cart before the horse. With science, we take a theory, and use it to make predictions that can be falsified. We then go out and attempt to falsify the theory. We can measure today best, the recent past next-best, and the far past worst. Thus asking for it to fully-explain origins is an unreasonable request.

The theory of evolution has been tested at all of the levels at which it makes predictions in the laboratory, and has come out to be true. Therefore the theory of evolution is fact. The only remaining question is how many times did life begin? The theory of evolution says nothing about this, but the fossil record and genetic evidence seem to indicate that abiogenesis occurred only once.
 
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JoeWill

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“As soon as you say “to a point” you are not dealing in proof any longer. Like science you are dealing with a theory substantiated by evidence, There is always room for new evidence to augment, refine, or refute a theory.”


You put me in mind of my old philosophy class, where we discussed our differing definitions of proof. Some people conjectured that there is no such thing as proof, whereas I was prepared to accept as “proof” an overwhelming accumulation of evidence – as with the law of gravity.

“Because there comes a point when a scientific theory is so well substantiated that it becomes a fact. The TofE is one such theory.”

I find this an astonishing statement. Just in the time since I left school, many so-called “facts” that once “substantiated” the Theory of Evolution have been either strongly contested or discounted by evolutionists themselves. No aspect of evolutionary theory would seem secure. Examples would include:

a) Ramapithecus and Australopethecines as ancestors of man
b) The Oparin-Miller model of chemical evolution
c) The horse series

Even S J Gould, who might be considered one of evolution’s leading spokesmen, has acknowledged that the fossil record is characterised by stasis and abrupt appearances. Where changes occur they are usually directionless. This lies very awkwardly with your view that evolution should be treated as fact.

"We know more about the TofE than we do gravity."

But gravity is something that can be repeatedly witnessed and tested, whereas the evidence for evolution is speculative and can be interpreted in opposing ways.

I think it is clear that your strict definitions of proof do not sit well with your strong statements as to the factual nature of Darwinism.


Surely you don't think me naive for making these points?

Kind regards, Joe



:wave:
 
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Beastt

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This entire post warrants being dragged up and refutted tirelessly.
Chalnoth,

I am able to tell that evolutionism is based on creatorless assumptions,
Wrong. It's based on science and science is not born of assumptions -- that's the playground of religion. The reason science doesn't proclaim a creator is simple -- there isn't any evidence of one and science must be based on evidence, (as is the Theory of Evolution), or it's simply not science. If you refuse to learn what science is, you'll never be credible in trying to refute any findings based upon such a process.

I am able to tell that it has no viable or demonstrable mechanism,
The fossil record shows you to be wrong. Endogenous retrovirus show you to be wrong. The dozens and dozens of cases of observed, studied and documented speciation both in the wild and the laboratory show you to be wrong.

and I am able to tell that it doesn't make sense,
When something makes perfect sense to those who dedicate their life to its study, when they can demonstrate the mechanisms and the outcome, when they can show the results over millions of years and they understand it: the claim of someone who doesn't understand it because they prefer to live in a world of hope and assumption, that it doesn't make sense is really nothing more than an admission that that they do not understand. Anything you don't understand isn't likely to make sense. If you want it to make sense you'll have to learn about it. Of course, you don't want it to make sense because you feel if it did, it might threatened beliefs you've assumed to be true, without evidence, for many, many years. And your assumed beliefs offer you a feeling of comfort, security and the lack of anxiety of a finite life. Understanding the reality offers only truth. And it's a truth you'd prefer not to recognize so you attempt to talk others into joining your delusion.

even when I have been analyzing it for quite a period of time. I have read, re-read, and read again the most prominent evidence said to be in favor of evolutionism, and I fail to see it as anything but wishful thinking.
You're not the first to read something and either just not understand what they were reading, or allowed their personal prejudices to influence their ability to grasp and retain the information and apply it to the logic of the mechanisms inherent to the concept.

I can see the dots that many evolutionists are trying to connect, and I can see the logic that they are using with regard to biological relationships meaning ancestral relationship. The problem is that their logic doesn't equal empirical science.
Logic can do nothing but be equal to empirical study of empirical evidence. Otherwise, it wouldn't be logic. It would be beliefs not unlike those leading to acceptance of religion.

It doesn't take a scientist to see the evidence, or to see the conclusions they are drawing from the evidence. The problem is, when you take away any possible chance of a creator, you are going to be able to come to only one conclusion.
You're demonstrating the thought processes you're utilizing to misguide yourself. Science doesn't "take away" the possible chance of a creator. It simply finds no evidence consistent with the chance of a creator. Science doesn't assume anything just because it finds a step missing or finds the evidence lacking for any common assumption. If anything is missing, or appears to be missing, science must plod on until the evidence either accounts for the missing step/mechanism or until evidence arises which demonstrates why such a step or mechanism isn't necessary. Such is the case with creation -- it's simply not necessary or indicated.

What has really happened here is that your belief system has added an unevidenced creator. You've assumed that if things exist, they must have been created. But this is a terribly flawed assumption. You're applying mixed concepts and failing to recognize that they are different. You see a cabinet maker build a set of cabinets and call him the "creator" of the cabinets. But he has created nothing. All of the materials already existed. What he has done is change the form. What, in your entire life, have you ever seen created? The simple and honest answer is; nothing. Everything which exists at the Newtonian level has, for all we can determine, always existed. Yet you insist upon a creator even though you have never witnessed an act of creation. But because you have witnessed acts of transformation and equate that to creation, you assume that where matter exists, there must be a creator for that matter. Yet you have likely never spent any real time contemplating a scenario opposite to your assumptions. You assume nothingness to be a more likely default state than somethingness. Why?

Have you ever witnessed nothing? Certainly this is beyond your ability because you are something -- you're made of matter and even your thoughts can be referred to as something since, when you die or are rendered fully unconscious, your thoughts cease to exist. So it's not really possile for you to witness nothingness. In fact, none of us can ever witness or even correctly conceive of nothingness. Yet because you confuse transformation with creation, you assume nothingness to be the proper default state. Indeed there is nothing to indicate that the existence of everything isn't the proper default state. Why wouldn't it be? And don't bother trying to answer for anyone else. Do some critical deep thinking about it. Answer it for yourself. There is really no reason to assume that anything which exists now hasn't always existed in some form or another. To assume an uncreated entity is necessary for creation or the existence of anything is an argument which is self-defeating. If all that exists needed to be created, then the creator too would have needed to be created. If the creator you suggest is without the need for creation, then everything else is also without the need for creation. What you're doing here is called "special pleading" and it's a well documented logical fallacy; that is -- it violates logic.

The intellectual/"scientific" community has taken away any possible chance of intelligent design,
Well, if they've taken it away, then it doesn't exist. And if no possibility exists, then why are you arguing for the possibility that it does? You've created your own paradox by proclaiming that the scientific community has done something it simply hasn't done. Science is not in the practice of taking away anything. But through implementation of the scientific method, they are able to illustrate where natural, demonstrable mechanisms are more rational and consistent with reality than are superstitious assumptions.

...and created a required a priori asumption for the secular scientific community to abide by, so of course they are stacking the deck in order for you to come to only one conclusion.
Again, you're placing the assumption on the wrong side of the issue. The assumption is yours. You assume a creator, even though there is no evidence of one and no need for one. You continue with that assumption even though it is a concept which defeats itself. Again; if the creator need not be created, then nothing which you attribute to his act of creation needs to be created. And if the universe cannot exist without having been created, then neither can your proposed and assumed, creator. It's really an obvious all or nothing proposition. You can't isolate any item of existence or assumed existence and simply proclaim that it is the one thing not in need of creation without explaining and demonstrating why. You might be able to toss out some assumed rhetoric as to why God needn't be created while everything else required creation, but you'll never be able to demonstrate any logic to support your assertions.

What I want many evolutionists to understand is that just because a creator is not able to be detected by natural mechanism, does not automatically disqualify it as a possibility.
And what I would like you to understand is that just because a creator was assumed and written about by men who had little understanding of the natural world, 2000 years ago, does not automatically indicate a creator as a possibility. This is especially so when you consider all of the similar proclamations for creators of various features and affects of the universe over the course of man's history -- the vast majority of which have proven false. Man has continually proclaimed creators and entities to explain that for which he lacked other explanations. This was done for volcanos, earthquakes, storms, droughts, plagues and most every other phenomena for which science has brought us answers consistent with reality. Yet people continually fail to learn from that history and continue to proclaim that concepts born of superstition and assumption are superior to those born of science. And they do so for one simple reason -- they're human. And as humans, they have a need to feel comforted and secure -- even if that comfort comes in the form of a fairytale.

We don't have to even "prove" a creator to "prove" intelligent design, but when we look at the evidence of design in nature, then we must accept the possiblity of a Designer.
The only way you can ever "prove" intelligent design is to compare it to known designs lacking intelligence. All we have is what exists naturally, and what man creates. But man's creation runs a full spectrum from poorly designed to well designed. And if measured against such a spectrum, what you proclaim as "intelligently designed", falls more in line with poorly designed. This implies a poor designer from your perspective, or a process of random trial and error, with a guiding mechanism from a non-created perspective.

When we understand this, then intelligent design in living things makes a mountain of sense. But like I said, the deck has been stacked.
The deck is stacked on your side by your unevidenced and illogical assumption that anything has been created. If you can't speak from a position of demonstrable evidence, then all you're offering are ancient superstitions. And the history of ancient superstitions tells us all we need to know about their validity.
 
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JoeWill

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This is a reply to EDX.

Thankyou for your reply, I am not quite sure what you are getting at with many of your comments but you sound quite angry.

I disagree with you over two main points:

A) I think that chance is a key factor in the creation / evolution debate. There is a remote chance that I could win the jackpot on the UK National Lottery every week for many months. But such a turn of events wouls be so incredibly unlikely that we would be compelled to be sceptical in the extreme, to the point of examining other possibilities for my good fortune.

These are similar to the odds that Hoyle calculated for abiogenesis - the emergence of life from non-life according to evolutionary theory. The improbability that life could arise by chance processes should cause us to be sceptical of current models of chemical evolution, and also to seek alternative explanations - i.e. special creation.

B) I disagree that there exists no empirical evidence for a Creator. The anthropic principle tells us that the universe has the appearance of having been very finely tuned indeed for life to exist. We know that intelligent beings create finely tuned designs to achieve certain goals. Therefore we might infer that the universe could have had a Grand Fine Tuner we call "God".

Sorry if this offends you,

Joe

:wave:
 
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Chalnoth

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You put me in mind of my old philosophy class, where we discussed our differing definitions of proof. Some people conjectured that there is no such thing as proof, whereas I was prepared to accept as “proof” an overwhelming accumulation of evidence – as with the law of gravity.
Evolution easily has more support than gravity.

I find this an astonishing statement. Just in the time since I left school, many so-called “facts” that once “substantiated” the Theory of Evolution have been either strongly contested or discounted by evolutionists themselves. No aspect of evolutionary theory would seem secure. Examples would include:

a) Ramapithecus and Australopethecines as ancestors of man
b) The Oparin-Miller model of chemical evolution
c) The horse series
Okay, the theory of evolution doesn't ever deal with specific evolutionary branches. The theory of evolution gives an overall structure that must exist. Even though I don't believe that these things are discounted at all (would be nice if you would post evidence), discounting individual parts don't do anything to damage the theory of evolution.

The theory of evolution, after all, does not say anything about what particular species are or are not our ancestors. What it does say is that we have ancestors, and we should be able to find other living species who share some of those ancestors. And this is exactly what we have found (the evidence for common ancestry with chimpanzees, for example, is basically irrefutable).

But gravity is something that can be repeatedly witnessed and tested, whereas the evidence for evolution is speculative and can be interpreted in opposing ways.
It is no different from evolution. Just like evolution, the fact that gravity exists is absolutely undeniable. Just like evolution, the precise details are not yet known.

Just because I can't tell you what gravity does at distances small than about a millimeter doesn't mean that you should doubt that gravity exists. The same is true with evolution: just because current science cannot provide every fossil of every animal that ever lived doesn't mean you should doubt that evolution occurs.
 
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Chalnoth

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A) I think that chance is a key factor in the creation / evolution debate. There is a remote chance that I could win the jackpot on the UK National Lottery every week for many months. But such a turn of events wouls be so incredibly unlikely that we would be compelled to be sceptical in the extreme, to the point of examining other possibilities for my good fortune.
But with evolution, you don't deal with one single person. You deal with populations. What is the probability that somebody will win the UK National Lottery sometime in the next year?

These are similar to the odds that Hoyle calculated for abiogenesis - the emergence of life from non-life according to evolutionary theory. The improbability that life could arise by chance processes should cause us to be sceptical of current models of chemical evolution, and also to seek alternative explanations - i.e. special creation.
Those calculations were wrong. See:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

The sad thing is, Hoyle did those calculations based upon no theory of abiogenesis that has ever been posed by scientists.

B) I disagree that there exists no empirical evidence for a Creator. The anthropic principle tells us that the universe has the appearance of having been very finely tuned indeed for life to exist. We know that intelligent beings create finely tuned designs to achieve certain goals. Therefore we might infer that the universe could have had a Grand Fine Tuner we call "God".
The anthropic principle doesn't tell us this. The heart of the anthropic principle is the simple statement that we cannot exist in any universe but one which is beneficial for life. Thus we should not think of it as special that we live in a universe that is specially tuned for life. Anthropic arguments are, in fact, the opposite of arguments in favor of a creator.

However, I dislike anthropic arguments for dealing with the universe as a whole. We just don't know enough about physics to say whether or not our universe is finely tuned. The anthropic argument is perfect for talking about how it's no surprise that the Earth is conducive to life, since we are certain there are many planets that are not conducive to life. But we don't know enough about physics to say that our universe is finely tuned at all, so it's best to not worry about these things just yet.
 
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JoeWill

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Reply to rmwilliamsII

ok. pick one of those characteristics.
show us specifically how the universe provides evidence for that characteristic. now link that characteristic to God.
how do you make that linkage?
using the information you gained from studying the universe or from somewhere else?
does every Christian perform this task exactly the same way that you do? that is, can you convince all Christians that God has this particular characteristic?

try it, it is far more difficult than you think.
do the exercise here and see how almost no one will agree with you, why not, if the characteristic is clearly seen in the physical universe? why doesn't everyone not see the same thing as you do?[/quote]

Thankyou for your challenges.

To begin with, if there is empirical evidence of of a Creator we call "God" (as is argued from the appearance of design in the universe etc), then that point should be made because:

1) It lacks scientific objectivity and intellectual integrity to simply close our eyes and place our hands over our ears to such a possibility.

2) It ignores evidence which has a bearing on whether our current 'understanding' of origins is accurate.

3) It seems unethical to present just one side of the argument, over such an important issue as whether God exists.


Evidence of an Intelligent Designer (as in the anthropic principle) could also be seen as evidence of some characteristics of God.

As Aquinas said, you cannot give what you do not have. A God who was able to design our universe seems likely to be one who has design expertise, who began our universe with projects, decision-making, aesthetics, knowhow and purpose.

I am not too concerned with how many people disagree with me, but where the logic of this discussion leads.

Joe

:wave:
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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You put me in mind of my old philosophy class, where we discussed our differing definitions of proof. Some people conjectured that there is no such thing as proof, whereas I was prepared to accept as “proof” an overwhelming accumulation of evidence – as with the law of gravity.
I know creationists love to have fun with words. The fact is that when you claim that the theory isn’t proven then you must be talking about absolute unequivocal proof. It’s the only way you can claim the TofE hasn’t been proven.

I find this an astonishing statement. Just in the time since I left school, many so-called “facts” that once “substantiated” the Theory of Evolution have been either strongly contested or discounted by evolutionists themselves. No aspect of evolutionary theory would seem secure. Examples would include:

a) Ramapithecus and Australopethecines as ancestors of man
b) The Oparin-Miller model of chemical evolution
c) The horse series
This is how science works. It is why it is a superior system for attaining knowledge. Nothing in science is accepted as dogma. As new evidence is found and/or old evidence is refined or even dismissed the theory may change. This does not invalidate the overall theory. You seem to suggest throwing the baby out with the bathwater. At this point there is so much evidence from so many independent branches of science and so many practical applications of the Theory that it is impossible to consider it anything but fact. “b)”, once again, doesn’t even have anything to do with the TofE.

Even S J Gould, who might be considered one of evolution’s leading spokesmen, has acknowledged that the fossil record is characterised by stasis and abrupt appearances. Where changes occur they are usually directionless. This lies very awkwardly with your view that evolution should be treated as fact.
Good thing the fossil record is only one of multiple science disciplines substantiating the TofE. Coaxing out small unknowns, rare errors, and scrutinizing one piece of evidence as if it’s the only thing the theory relies upon does nothing to refute the theory as a whole. The fact is that we use the TofE in real life applications that wouldn’t be possible without it. We have observed speciation. We understand the mechanisms. The theory is sound.

But gravity is something that can be repeatedly witnessed and tested, whereas the evidence for evolution is speculative and can be interpreted in opposing ways.
The TofE has been observed. Speciation has happened. We don’t even know the mechanism by which gravity works. Funny how you’ll accept a less substantiated principle like gravity over the more robust TofE.
If you’re going to try and claim there is some barrier to prevent speciation from occurring past some ambiguous point then you’re going to have to define that point and show me scientific reason to back up your claim.

I think it is clear that your strict definitions of proof do not sit well with your strong statements as to the factual nature of Darwinism.
Explain. Science doesn’t deal in absolute proof. Evolution is a fact.
Surely you don't think me naive for making these points?
No offense, but I do. You’re lack of understanding of the TofE combined with wholehearted acceptance of the supernatural causes you to fall for the same tricks every other creationist does. You believe you have some esoteric knowledge that, when combined with an incorrect view about how faulty the TofE is, give you greater understanding that all the supporters of the TofE somehow lack (even the TEs). It’s simply not true. Aside from your fundamental flaw in reasoning (mixing science with theology) you have yet to give compelling scientific reason why the TofE is wrong in any way. All you are doing rejecting scientific fact because it is incompatible with your beliefs.
 
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Chalnoth

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1) It lacks scientific objectivity and intellectual integrity to simply close our eyes and place our hands over our ears to such a possibility.
The problem is, when you propose a theory in science, it has to provide specific predictions. Supernatural causes can't do this, and thus cannot be fit into science.

2) It ignores evidence which has a bearing on whether our current 'understanding' of origins is accurate.
No. It ignores invalid arguments, as it should.

3) It seems unethical to present just one side of the argument, over such an important issue as whether God exists.
Science is all about debate. There are a hundred sides to every issue in science. The idea that things can come about through natural causes isn't one side, it is many.

If you could quantify God's influence on the natural world in a way that was as measurable as any good scientific theory, you'd be able to find scientists that would be willing to test that theory. The problem is, you can't, because those few places where there were concrete predictions (creation, the flood), the Bible has come out wrong.

Evidence of an Intelligent Designer (as in the anthropic principle) could also be seen as evidence of some characteristics of God.
Once again, the anthropic principle is not evidence of an intelligent designer. It's actually not evidence of anything. It's just an untestable hypothesis, and as such anthropic arguments usually aren't held to be good arguments by the majority of the scientific community.
 
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Beastt

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This is a reply to EDX.

Thankyou for your reply, I am not quite sure what you are getting at with many of your comments but you sound quite angry.

I disagree with you over two main points:

A) I think that chance is a key factor in the creation / evolution debate. There is a remote chance that I could win the jackpot on the UK National Lottery every week for many months. But such a turn of events wouls be so incredibly unlikely that we would be compelled to be sceptical in the extreme, to the point of examining other possibilities for my good fortune.
Great! Now assume you played the lottery for a few million years. Now what are your odds of winning?

Oops! ;)

These are similar to the odds that Hoyle calculated for abiogenesis - the emergence of life from non-life according to evolutionary theory. The improbability that life could arise by chance processes should cause us to be sceptical of current models of chemical evolution, and also to seek alternative explanations - i.e. special creation.
We see such calculations all the time and never do they include the factor of natural selection. Once that is factored in and run through an actual demonstration, we see odds calculated at a thousand trillion trillion to one, suddenly dive to where in 50-simulations, each running to 1,600 generations, the "nearly impossible" odds are beaten in 23 of the 50 simulations, (See: the Avida project). Oops!

B) I disagree that there exists no empirical evidence for a Creator. The anthropic principle tells us that the universe has the appearance of having been very finely tuned indeed for life to exist. We know that intelligent beings create finely tuned designs to achieve certain goals. Therefore we might infer that the universe could have had a Grand Fine Tuner we call "God".
But you're doing the same thing combatant is doing. You're failing to look at all the possibilities. What if the universe coagulated out of existing matter but lacked the interplay between matter and energy we refer to as the "physical laws"? What would happen? Obviously, such a universe could not continue to exist. It would destroy itself. But the matter itself would still exist. So what stops it from coagulating again, into a somewhat different universe? And after it has resolved into what we might recognize as some form of a universe enough times, it might well form into something with a set of interactions which do not lead to its decay. Then you end up with the kind of universe in which we live, and you still need no creator which must itself, somehow avoid the need to be created.

Ooops!

Sorry if this offends you,

Joe

:wave:
Well, I can't speak for EDX, but it certainly doesn't offend me. I just think you need to take each possible scenario and think each one through. Don't assume that because a stable universe is unlikely that spontaneous formation isn't a possibility. Keep running the scenario. Okay, so the universe decayed. Then what? Don't simply stop and say that because the first universe failed, we're done. The basic constituent parts still exist. So keep running that scenario. Eventually, you end up with a working universe without any need for a creator. It simply can't happen any other way. And while this universe is 13.7 Billion years old, we can't know how long the constituent components have existed. Logically, they must have always existed because nothingness is a purely illogical state for any universe and somethingness cannot simply arise from nothingness -- nor can an uncreated creator.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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The big problem with trying to show that life is designed in some way, is that life is not designed in a way that any human designer would do it.

1. life forms a nested hierarchy, there are no chimeras. Human beings design consistently with swapped modules, reusing good designs, moving things around to save primarily debugging time. Our literature is full of chimeras but life is not like this. The eye has evolved maybe a score of times, each time different because evolution only has available the genes inherited from your parents. Even if you happen to eat an organism with a much better eye than yours, you can not rework your eye with their DNA as a process of digesting them. curious feature of life, this nested hierarchy versus swapped modules.

2. the second big problem with design in general is that life is not optimized in any way. Most things are tinkered with, not for the best design but simply for something that works. my favorite one is why in the world do we use the same tube to eat and drink as we do to breath and talk? what a big design flaw, lots of people die choking to death. the reason is that evolution only has what is available to it's ancestors to work with, despite a much better design right next to it physically. this is a big deal for biologists, they realize that life is radically NOT optimized, not designed with any noticable criteria except for survivability and nested hierarchies.

3. the fundamental question then becomes if life is not designed as human beings would do it, then what kind of designer could have designed it?
a. one that always uses vertical transmission of genes, never swapped modules.
b. one that is content with good enough to function, even if there is a better way to do the same thing in the creature eaten (my favorite here is the lungs of chickens, much better design than humans and we eat them, lots of them).
c. one that is content to tinker then kill off 98% of all species ever living on the earth. not optimal.
d. one that didn't sign his/her/its work despite several very obvious ways to do so. (my favorite here is a different genetic code for each biblical kind, no evolution between kinds would be possible)

it is not strictly secular people that killed off Paley's dream of ID, lots of Christians saw that it did not conform to what the evidence is in the living world.

anthropic principle is physics not biology, therefore it has nothing to do with the TofE. the TofE presumes that life exists and that an imperfect replicator exists. the AP is irrelevant to either of these ideas.
 
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JoeWill

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Reply to Beast.

Sorry, but I think the mistakes are yours.

"Great! Now assume you played the lottery for a few million years. Now what are your odds of winning?"

You miss the point. The odds of chemical evolution occurring even over millions of years, are like the odds of someone winning the top prize on the National Lottery for many weeks - i.e. beyond what could be reasonably be attributed to chance.


"We see such calculations all the time and never do they include the factor of natural selection."

Oops!

I'm sorry but Oops! yourself. Natural selection could not occur before the first life was able to reproduce itself, and the improbabilities we are talking about refer to the first life evolving from chemical compounds. So natural selection does not come into it yet.

"But you're doing the same thing combatant is doing. You're failing to look at all the possibilities. What if the universe coagulated out of existing matter but lacked the interplay between matter and energy we refer to as the "physical laws"? What would happen? Obviously, such a universe could not continue to exist. It would destroy itself. But the matter itself would still exist. So what stops it from coagulating again, into a somewhat different universe? And after it has resolved into what we might recognize as some form of a universe enough times, it might well form into something with a set of interactions which do not lead to its decay. Then you end up with the kind of universe in which we live, and you still need no creator which must itself, somehow avoid the need to be created."

But it is far more probable that a life-prohibiting universe would come into existence. One that does not collapse in upon itself, but which still has the wrong mix of variables for life to exist. So the life-permitting properties of our own universe still warrant explanation - which is where the evidence for God comes in.

You are too quick to assume the rational high ground. Have you thought this stuff through yourself?

Joe

:wave:
 
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Opcode42

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Reply to Beast.

Sorry, but I think the mistakes are yours.

"Great! Now assume you played the lottery for a few million years. Now what are your odds of winning?"

You miss the point. The odds of chemical evolution occurring even over millions of years, are like the odds of someone winning the top prize on the National Lottery for many weeks - i.e. beyond what could be reasonably be attributed to chance.


We see such calculations all the time and never do they include the factor of natural selection.

Oops!

I'm sorry but Oops! yourself. Natural selection could not occur before the first life was able to reproduce itself, and the improbabilities we are talking about refer to the first life evolving from chemical compounds. So natural selection does not come into it yet.

"But you're doing the same thing combatant is doing. You're failing to look at all the possibilities. What if the universe coagulated out of existing matter but lacked the interplay between matter and energy we refer to as the "physical laws"? What would happen? Obviously, such a universe could not continue to exist. It would destroy itself. But the matter itself would still exist. So what stops it from coagulating again, into a somewhat different universe? And after it has resolved into what we might recognize as some form of a universe enough times, it might well form into something with a set of interactions which do not lead to its decay. Then you end up with the kind of universe in which we live, and you still need no creator which must itself, somehow avoid the need to be created."

But it is far more probable that a life-prohibiting universe would come into existence. One that does not collapse in upon itself, but which still has the wrong mix of variables for life to exist. So the life-permitting properties of our own universe still warrant explanation - which is where the evidence for God comes in.

You are too quick to assume the rational high ground. Have you thought this stuff through yourself?

Joe

:wave:

The problem with these ideas always comes down to the simple fact that the chance of life occuring is quite immaterial. It did. We do not know how many times the dice may have come up wrong before life started, all we know is that at least one time they came up correct.

Its fallacious arguing. Its stating something as fact when we have no method of determining its validity.

For all we know this may have been the 1,000,000,000,000,000 universe to exist.

Life happened. Debating the chances of it occuring is pointless. All we can debate is how it happened, and frankly chances don't enter into to that discussion, as the chance of life occuring in this unirverse is quite clearly 1:1
 
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JoeWill

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Reply to rmwilliamsll

"The big problem with trying to show that life is designed in some way, is that life is not designed in a way that any human designer would do it."

You may have a supportable counter to the design argument, but that does not change the fact that there exists empirical evidence for the existence of a Designer we call "God", which should be presented and taken into consideration. This was my original position.

In human designs we do find specificity and complexity, as we do in biological 'designs'. So there are broad parallels between human designs and biological 'designs', from which we might infer the existence of an Intelligent Designer.

We never witness specificity and complexity arise through any other process than intelligent design and that's where Paley's argument has some clout.

Creationists would offer you theological answers as to why some biological designs are now less than perfect.

"[The] anthropic principle is physics not biology, therefore it has nothing to do with the TofE."

Not at all. The theory of evolution is also applied to our universe - it is said that the universe itself is evolving. Therefore the physical characteristics of the universe do have a bearing on evolutionary theory.

And of course, as should be obvious, evidence of God from cosmology will have a bearing on how far people accept secular evolutionary theory as fact.

Take care,

Joe

:wave:
 
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TheInstant

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The theory of evolution is also applied to our universe - it is said that the universe itself is evolving. Therefore the physical characteristics of the universe do have a bearing on evolutionary theory.


There are different meanings of the word "evolution". In a lot of contexts it merely means "change". This is the case when people apply the word evolution to things like the universe. That doesn't mean that the theory of evolution applies to the universe. In order for that to be the case, the universe would have to replicate imperfectly and experience different reproductive success than other universes.
 
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Chalnoth

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You miss the point. The odds of chemical evolution occurring even over millions of years, are like the odds of someone winning the top prize on the National Lottery for many weeks - i.e. beyond what could be reasonably be attributed to chance.
Could you please at least read the link I posted on the probability of abiogenesis? Because this statement is blatantly false.

I'm sorry but Oops! yourself. Natural selection could not occur before the first life was able to reproduce itself, and the improbabilities we are talking about refer to the first life evolving from chemical compounds. So natural selection does not come into it yet.
Right, reproduction is the first step, and is the essence of chemical evolution. You start with a single self-replicating molecule, and from there evolution moves forward, until you reach life.

But it is far more probable that a life-prohibiting universe would come into existence. One that does not collapse in upon itself, but which still has the wrong mix of variables for life to exist. So the life-permitting properties of our own universe still warrant explanation - which is where the evidence for God comes in.
Well, there are two lines of argument:
1. We don't yet know enough about physics to say that it is far more probable that a life-prohibiting universe would come into existence. It may be true, it may not be, we just don't yet know.
2. If it was far more probable for a life-prohibiting universe to come into existence, who says that our universe is the only one that exists? If there are many universes, then there is no reason for a habitable universe to be special (this is the argument from the anthropic principle, an argument which I personally think is premature).

You are too quick to assume the rational high ground. Have you thought this stuff through yourself?
Considering I'm a graduate student studying theoretical cosmology, yes, I have thought this stuff through myself.
 
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JoeWill

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Reply to Opcode

"The problem with these ideas always comes down to the simple fact that the chance of life occuring is quite immaterial. It did. We do not know how many times the dice may have come up wrong before life started, all we know is that at least one time they came up correct."

Sorry, but some philosophers of science have pointed out the error in your argument.

For a start, we do not "know" that life started in the way you assert.

Secondly, the improbabilty of abiogenesis according to contemporary evolutionary though occurring is important. One philosopher puts it like this:

A man faces a firing squad of a hundred expert marksmen, but survives his ordeal, as each marksmen misses. That man knows why he has survived - the men missed their target. But the improbability of such an event happening by chance needs to be addressed.

It seems likely that factors other than chance processes were accountable for the outcome e.g. the men had some motive to miss.

Similarly, it is inadequate merely to state that we have evolved against incredible odds. Those unlikely odds stand against such a theory and encourage us to look elsewhere for an explanation of our origins.

"For all we know this may have been the 1,000,000,000,000,000 universe to exist."

Then the above problem of improbability would remain. Against such improbabilities that life can arise by chance, perhaps only one of those universes would actually contain life. You would have to consider how unlikely it is that ours should just happen to be the one that supports life.

Besides you cannot prove that there are parallel universes, so this does not nulify my argument that there is empirical evidence to support a belief in God. Evidence which should be heard.

Joe

:wave:
 
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