How sinles must I be in order to be perfect?

[Byfaithalone1]

Mrs. White writes that we will bring with us to heaven the character we develop here on earth and that our characters will not be changed at Christ's second coming. In light of this . . .

What type of character will we take with us into Heaven?

What type of character must we develop here on earth prior to Christ's second coming?

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

Mrs. White writes that we will bring with us to heaven the character we develop here on earth and that our characters will not be changed at Christ's second coming. In light of this . . .

At whatever stage of sanctification we are at, at the end of time or when we die, we take that character with us to heaven and receive our reward according to the works we have done. "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27. But as to our entitlement to heaven, it will not be based on whatever works we have done out of love for our God Who has saved us. Our entitlement to heaven will be the righteousness of Christ that we have accepted as our wedding garment.

We need to be clear that it is not the works that we have done in character growth that will save us. Even though there are rewards for the work we do, this work is not what saves us.

What type of character will we take with us into Heaven?

We will take to Heaven the work we have done on our character development, but it is totally covered by the perfect character of Jesus, either at our death or at the end of time.

What type of character must we develop here on earth prior to Christ's second coming?

BFA

We develop the best we can under our varying circumstances, but always under the umbrella and protection of Christ's righteousness. Just keep in mind that it is not the characters we develop that gain us entrance into Heaven. It is only and always the character of Jesus, our righteousness, that allows us into Heaven.

 

[Joe67]

Those who are hoping to go to heaven cannot walk humbly before their God.

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

At whatever stage of sanctification we are at, at the end of time or when we die, we take that character with us to heaven and receive our reward according to the works we have done.

I'm not sure how to quantify this (or even whether it can be quantified) but I'd like to follow your thought process a bit. If a person is in the early stages of sanctification (to use your phrase) "at the end of time," I'd assume this means that, although he may be covered by Christ's robe of righteousness, he is still sinning. If his character is not changed at Christ's second coming and if he must take to heaven the character he formed here on earth, does this mean he will sin in Heaven?

If man's character is not changed at Christ's second coming, at what point does he become sinless (if ever)?

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

I'm not sure how to quantify this (or even whether it can be quantified) but I'd like to follow your thought process a bit. If a person is in the early stages of sanctification (to use your phrase) "at the end of time," I'd assume this means that, although he may be covered by Christ's robe of righteousness, he is still sinning. If his character is not changed at Christ's second coming and if he must take to heaven the character he formed here on earth, does this mean he will sin in Heaven?

If man's character is not changed at Christ's second coming, at what point does he become sinless (if ever)?

BFA

If you are abiding in Jesus, and you lose your temper, I imagine you would consider that to be sinning, right? But not according to the Bible. The moment you accept Jesus and trust in Him, you are considered to be sinless before God. God sees only the righteousness of Christ that covers you, and therefore you are now sinless.

Your defects and flaws of character, the tendencies to wrong ways of living are no longer "sin" because you are no longer separated from God. You have been reconciled through the mediation of Jesus.

So if you would stop gazing at yourself and your own works, and keep your eyes fixed on Jesus, you don't need to worry about becoming sinless. You have been justified at conversion, and are just-as-if you never sinned.

What a wonderful gift!!

 

[PerrySB]

Mrs. White writes that we will bring with us to heaven the character we develop here on earth and that our characters will not be changed at Christ's second coming.

This is interesting and I think she was exactly correct. However remember how Paul struggled with the battle between the flesh and the spirit. His spirit was in alignment with God’s will, his flesh though fought against it.

I believe our basic personality (character) will remain the same however we will be free of fleshly influences that cause us to stumble.

Here is where I have a tendency to jump outside the box. Anyone who has done any near death studies (of Christians, and Betty Eddie being a good example) would see that White was correct in this case. However whenever I do look outside the box, I do always compare my findings to scripture.

It is my belief that complete sanctification in the flesh is not possible with anyone other than Jesus

 

[Joe67]

This is interesting and I think she was exactly correct. However remember how Paul struggled with the battle between the flesh and the spirit. His spirit was in alignment with God’s will, his flesh though fought against it.

I believe our basic personality (character) will remain the same however we will be free of fleshly influences that cause us to stumble.

Here is where I have a tendency to jump outside the box. Anyone who has done any near death studies (of Christians, and Betty Eddie being a good example) would see that White was correct in this case. However whenever I do look outside the box, I do always compare my findings to scripture.

It is my belief that complete sanctification in the flesh is not possible with anyone other than Jesus

We will be free of idolatry. Righteousness will be credited to us.

We will be free of sorcery. We will overcome the angel even as Jacob.

Our animal needs will wear a harness.

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

This is interesting and I think she was exactly correct. However remember how Paul struggled with the battle between the flesh and the spirit. His spirit was in alignment with God’s will, his flesh though fought against it.

I believe our basic personality (character) will remain the same however we will be free of fleshly influences that cause us to stumble.

Here is where I have a tendency to jump outside the box. Anyone who has done any near death studies (of Christians, and Betty Eddie being a good example) would see that White was correct in this case. However whenever I do look outside the box, I do always compare my findings to scripture.

It is my belief that complete sanctification in the flesh is not possible with anyone other than Jesus

Thanks for the thoughts! As I understand it, we are sinners now (even if our sins are covered by Christ's robe of righteousness). Will there ever come a time when this is no longer true?

BFA

 

[PerrySB]

Will there ever come a time when this is no longer true?

Wow, that is the million dollar question. How can any of us answer that, personally I think we need to wait till we get there to find out.

 

[Soon144k]

Where does Jesus Christ personally say (recorded by His own eyewitness disciple, not pretenders) that our sins are covered by His robe of righteousness.

This is an important discussion. So in aid of clarity please interpret the two following verses in light of the belief that our sins are covered by the robe of righteousness of Jesus Christ such that we can fool God into judging us as sinless when we still maintain sin in our lives.

Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. Dan.12:10.

(7) Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; [bless and do not curse] (8) it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. Rev.19:7-8.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Where does Jesus Christ personally say (recorded by His own eyewitness disciple, not pretenders) that our sins are covered by His robe of righteousness.

This is an important discussion. So in aid of clarity please interpret the two following verses in light of the belief that our sins are covered by the robe of righteousness of Jesus Christ such that we can fool God into judging us as sinless when we still maintain sin in our lives.

Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. Dan.12:10.

(7) Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; [bless and do not curse] (8) it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. Rev.19:7-8.

How do you view the parable of the wedding feast and the wedding garment?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Wow, that is the million dollar question. How can any of us answer that, personally I think we need to wait till we get there to find out.

Because I believe we will be changed and the corruptible will put on incorruption when the trumpet sounds and the dead are raised, I don't feel at all uncomfortable answering this question.

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

Where does Jesus Christ personally say (recorded by His own eyewitness disciple, not pretenders) that our sins are covered by His robe of righteousness.

You don't need the exact words of "righteousness" in order to get the message. First, you have John 3:16, "...whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." No works here. All that is required to be saved is to believe.

Then you have the parable in Matthew 22:11, "And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment."

This parable gives an insight into the fact that a wedding garment is required in order to be accepted at the wedding. You can't come to the "wedding" in your own self-wrought works. There is a special garment granted (given) to the saints, Revelation 19: 7-8.

John 1:17, "For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

And here there is recognition that grace comes through Jesus. I'm sure you know the meaning of grace -- unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification.

Now, if you cease learning at the end of the gospels, there is sufficient information there to be saved, but you will be missing out on richer insights as supplied in later books of the New Testament.

This is an important discussion. So in aid of clarity please interpret the two following verses in light of the belief that our sins are covered by the robe of righteousness of Jesus Christ such that we can fool God into judging us as sinless when we still maintain sin in our lives.

"fool God" is your term. Do you think that "grace" is about fooling God into accepting us?

Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. Dan.12:10.

Yes, we purify ourselves, but HOW. The only way to purify ourselves and make ourselves white and be refined, is to come to Jesus and accept His grace and His power to live out His life within us.

(7) Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; [bless and do not curse] (8) it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. Rev.19:7-8.

note the preceding words "It was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen..." GRANTED her. The clothing is given to her, so she did not create this garment herself.

Once the righteousness of Christ is given to us, it becomes ours, and it can thus correctly be said that the righteous deeds belong to the saints.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

'Resurrecting' this thread...

My understanding of being perfect is not having one spot or blemish. When we first accept Christ as our Saviour, we have searched our hearts and have asked Jesus to cleanse us from all we have done (sin), to that point. We are then spotless (made righteous). That is why the thief on the cross, or anyone who gains Salvation just prior to death, will see eternity. They have been made spotless and have not had time to sin again.

For those of us that made that conversion a while ago, alot has transpired in our lives, and because of our carnal nature, we fall into sinful behaviour now and then. The Holy Spirit convicts us of these transgressions, along with other hidden ones we didn't remember, and we ask for the cleansing blood of Christ to forgive us and therefore, make us spotless again. As we go along in our walk with God, we recognize temptation more readily, as the Holy Spirit reveals it to us, because we are gaining spiritual discernment. We nip these temptations before they become sin in our hearts by asking for deliverence from them. This is the process of sanctification and the perfection to which we are able to attain.

So, everyone who will meet in the air on that beautiful day, will have no unrepented, known sins on their hearts. Jesus changes our corruptible to incorruption because we are not able to stand in the light of His Glory with these earthly vessels without perishing and must be transformed... be given our immortal bodies.

 

[Laodicean]

'Resurrecting' this thread...

My understanding of being perfect is not having one spot or blemish. When we first accept Christ as our Saviour, we have searched our hearts and have asked Jesus to cleanse us from all we have done (sin), to that point. We are then spotless (made righteous). That is why the thief on the cross, or anyone who gains Salvation just prior to death, will see eternity. They have been made spotless and have not had time to sin again.

For those of us that made that conversion a while ago, alot has transpired in our lives, and because of our carnal nature, we fall into sinful behaviour now and then. The Holy Spirit convicts us of these transgressions, along with other hidden ones we didn't remember, and we ask for the cleansing blood of Christ to forgive us and therefore, make us spotless again. As we go along in our walk with God, we recognize temptation more readily, as the Holy Spirit reveals it to us, because we are gaining spiritual discernment. We nip these temptations before they become sin in our hearts by asking for deliverence from them. This is the process of sanctification and the perfection to which we are able to attain.

So, everyone who will meet in the air on that beautiful day, will have no unrepented, known sins on their hearts. Jesus changes our corruptible to incorruption because we are not able to stand in the light of His Glory with these earthly vessels without perishing and must be transformed... be given our immortal bodies.

I see it this way, too, EastCoastRemnant.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I'm not sure if I'm following the discussion. Can I ask a few questions to check my understanding?

Are we saying that we lose our salvation every time we sin and then only regain it once we confess our sins and request forgiveness?

Are we saying that we guarantee what is to come by our own pattern of sinning, confessing and receiving forgiveness?

Are we saying that, when we believe, we pass from death to life and then pass back to death the next time we sin?

Are we saying that, at the trump of God, the incorruptible puts on incorruption?

How easy is it to lose salvation?
​

BFA

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

If you die with unconfessed/unrepented sin or at probations close, then you are lost.

BFA, you know the ins and the outs of SDA doctrine, so why the continued milk type questions?

Judas betrayed our Lord and sealed his transgression by killing himself... Peter did the same but repented and was forgiven. Both these men were converts of Christ but one allowed sin to drive him to the grave while the other allowed sin to drive him to His Saviour. It's all about choices...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

If you die with unconfessed/unrepented sin or at probations close, then you are lost....

If I utter a cuss word as I'm driving down I-75 and a semi truck crosses the median, is it safe to conclude that I am not eligible for salvation if I die before confessing my sin?

When the Holy Spirit set His seal on us and guaranteed what is to come, what did He guarantee?

What happens after probation closes?

BFA, you know the ins and the outs of SDA doctrine, so why the continued milk type questions?

There are SDAs who would disagree with your assertion that, if you die with unconfessed sin, you are lost. I don't want to anticipate what your answers might be. I ask the questions so I can better understand your position.

BFA

 

[Adventtruth]

If you die with unconfessed/unrepented sin or at probations close, then you are lost.

Does that include you?

BFA, you know the ins and the outs of SDA doctrine, so why the continued milk type questions?

Well if you believe its about choices and not about The Messiah, then you need milk questions.

Judas betrayed our Lord and sealed his transgression by killing himself... Peter did the same but repented and was forgiven. Both these men were converts of Christ but one allowed sin to drive him to the grave while the other allowed sin to drive him to His Saviour. It's all about choices...

Does that mean Peter had no unconfessed sins?

AT

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

A) Does that include you?

B)Well if you believe its about choices and not about The Messiah, then you need milk questions.

C)Does that mean Peter had no unconfessed sins?

AT

A) Of course that includes me... what, am I something special??

B) Did you make the choice to ask Jesus to be your Saviour? Thats a choice... do we not have free will to walk towards God or away from him?

C) I'm not God and wouldn't know his heart but considering he was crucified upside down for the cause of Christ, I'm sure he was well prepared for martyrdom.

But of course you missed the point of the comparison between Judas and Peter... do you believe that Judas was a true disciple that succumbed to temptation or do you believe he was never a sincere believer?