How should we respond?

[Loukuss]

lay on hands and heal the sick, pray out loud and watch God do stuff .

have you personally been able to do this yourself?

the only way to respond to the spirit of unbelief is with miracles and signs and irrefutable proof of something they cannot explain . then you at least have the right to speak .

the only way?
are you a miracle worker? are you able to perform miracles for an audience who might be seeking God?
we dont have the right to speak if we cant perform miracles and signs?

but if its all about intellectual stuff .

there is no response that convince them .

because only God can .

ok, i agree that only God can convince someone. question - can God use the intellectual stuff to convince someone of the truth of the gospel?

hope your paper goes well

thanks

 

[racer]

Whatever the point you were making was.

Hmmm, I wasn't making a point--I merely made an observation.

 

[wayseer]

i feel there are a lot of things i could write about. his overall lack of knowledge about theology being the number one topic, with the second major one being his complete lack of scientific argument in support of his scientific atheism. irony anyone?

That's what I mean. It's ironic that a scientist would fail to develop his thesis along scholarly and academic lines and then fall for using fallacy to support his ideas - and then have the hide to call everyone else 'delusional'.

When power becomes masked as ideology then scientists, as well as Christians, need to be alarmed.

 

[wayseer]

the outcome is usually ugly for the christian and victorious for the atheist.

Fear God, do justice, walk humbly - Micah 6:6ff.

Jesus demonstrated that in the end we are left with the message - how we respond is an individual's concern. In the meantime atheists will appear to win.

 

[Loukuss]

Fear God, do justice, walk humbly - Micah 6:6ff.

Jesus demonstrated that in the end we are left with the message - how we respond is an individual's concern. In the meantime atheists will appear to win.

my humility still needs some work... i have a problem with the atheist appearing to win.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

have you personally been able to do this yourself?

yes . it was a beautiful time . the gifts of God flourish more in one season than another . there is a more passive gift that slowly works (healing) wonders over time . but sometimes there are instant events also .

the only way?
are you a miracle worker? are you able to perform miracles for an audience who might be seeking God?
we dont have the right to speak if we cant perform miracles and signs?

Hmm perhaps my language was too strong . but i have had some experience in this . but Spiritually demonstrating the good news . however your giftset allows .. is really "the only way" people see the face of Jesus in you .

in romans it is written by performing miracles (from this city to that city) we have "fully" preached the gospel .

another thing that really softens people's hearts is showing love to the poor . the greatest always is love .

ok, i agree that only God can convince someone. question - can God use the intellectual stuff to convince someone of the truth of the gospel?

What the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance is from Luke "He will give you wisdom by which no one can gainsay or resist ." if miracles is not your gift . seek wisdom .

so yes . but according to Paul . human wisdom empties the cross of its power . Perhaps illustrating how the love of God transforms people is the answer? So even though they may not agree with what you say .. they "respect the way you live" and it forms a relationship God works through in ways unimaginable to us .

thanks

 

[bugkiller]

Been awhile since I've written anything here but I figured I'd pop back in and gather some ideas.

My question is largely an apologetic one and goes as follows:

What should be the response (if any) of the christian towards the new atheism? The new atheism being defined as the militant and hostile form of antitheism found in bestselling authors such as Dawkins, Hitchenson and Harris. I'm currently focusing on 'The God Delusion'.

I'm currently writing a final paper for one of my courses in theology for my masters program and I figured I would see what type of ideas I could gather from my old friends at CF.

Have anyone here read the book in question?

Thanks ahead of time.


Lucas

Say I have read none of the stuff and 'The God Delusion' sounds like a title but prompts this question for me: What aboout the church delusion? I think more people are fustrated with the church and not God. I think it is the general state of the church that makes it very difficult to talk to anybody.

I am very despondant and delusionary about the church, today. It seems to be responding as a business rather than a church. Alot of revernds today are not Christians, but heads of non profit delude people who are in support for any reason but Jesus. A friend ofmine was interviewed at their church on a very bad weather day about why they came to church. They were the only one who responded because we love Jesus. This was in a church that runs about 250 on Sunday morning. And they are big enough to need two worship services.

bugkiller

 

[wayseer]

Say I have read none of the stuff and 'The God Delusion' sounds like a title but prompts this question for me: What aboout the church delusion? I think more people are fustrated with the church and not God. I think it is the general state of the church that makes it very difficult to talk to anybody.

I am very despondant and delusionary about the church, today. It seems to be responding as a business rather than a church. Alot of revernds today are not Christians, but heads of non profit delude people who are in support for any reason but Jesus. A friend ofmine was interviewed at their church on a very bad weather day about why they came to church. They were the only one who responded because we love Jesus. This was in a church that runs about 250 on Sunday morning. And they are big enough to need two worship services.

bugkiller

A couple of things.

The Church's position is society has been sidelined. It no longer carries the big stick it use to and many in the Church hierarchy have yet to wake up to this fact.

The other thing is that we are much better educated than even 50 years ago. People will not accept the 'I told you so' answers. The community is better educated, at least in the West, and the old traditions are seriously questioned.

I see nothing wrong in this - in a way the change parallels Jesus' teaching about being servants of all. The Church is finding it hard to adjust to its new servant role.

Some churches have adopted the mega church approach. But creating mega churches is an attempt to relieve the ever increasing reality that runs the economy - get big or get out. Unfortunately none of this equates with what Jesus taught.

The frustration I feel is that the Church still thinks of itself as the great pillar upon which society rests. Let's get real. This attitude was the subject of many confrontations and challenges by Jesus.

So do not feel too bad. It is all working out.

 

[Loukuss]

Say I have read none of the stuff and 'The God Delusion' sounds like a title but prompts this question for me: What aboout the church delusion? I think more people are fustrated with the church and not God. I think it is the general state of the church that makes it very difficult to talk to anybody.

I am very despondant and delusionary about the church, today. It seems to be responding as a business rather than a church. Alot of revernds today are not Christians, but heads of non profit delude people who are in support for any reason but Jesus. A friend ofmine was interviewed at their church on a very bad weather day about why they came to church. They were the only one who responded because we love Jesus. This was in a church that runs about 250 on Sunday morning. And they are big enough to need two worship services.

bugkiller

sorry if i sound like a grump, bugkiller, but can we stay on the topic brought up in the op? your post sounds like it deserves its own thread on its own right. id be more than happy to discuss the church with you there.
thanks.

 

[ebia]

Hi Lucas - good luck with the paper.

I have read The God Delusion which is little more than a rehash of the worst attributes of Christian history. Apart from that Dawkins says very little and for a scientist a very unscientific piece of writing.

Mmm.. His argument is often very poor: he introduces an area of discussion, chooses an easy target within that area, demolishes his easy target, chucks in a few random personal attacks, and then claims to have dealt with the whole field.

His little bit on the bible is quite laughable.

 

[ebia]

there is no response that convince them .

That's true to a point, but the errors and misconceptions in their perspective should be addressed. When they make historical assertions that are untrue or misleading that should be addressed. When what they actually deal with is poor theology and fails to take into account good theology that should be addressed.

It needs to be noticed that the god Dawkins demolishes bears very little resemblence to the God of the scriptures or good Judeo/Christian theology.

 

[ebia]

That's what I mean. It's ironic that a scientist would fail to develop his thesis along scholarly and academic lines and then fall for using fallacy to support his ideas - and then have the hide to call everyone else 'delusional'.

I don't think he knows how to think in any mode except science and gets lost when he tries. He's on record as saying, in effect, that philosophy (let alone theology) is to science as masturbation is to sex. And he clearly hasn't the remotest idea how historians work.

He's a good biologist, but when he tries to do other sorts of thinking he just doesn't have the tools to do it.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

That's true to a point, but the errors and misconceptions in their perspective should be addressed. When they make historical assertions that are untrue or misleading that should be addressed. When what they actually deal with is poor theology and fails to take into account good theology that should be addressed.

It needs to be noticed that the god Dawkins demolishes bears very little resemblence to the God of the scriptures or good Judeo/Christian theology.

to that i would suggest what Paul said . instead of responding to slander verbally . demonstrate your point instead by living it . if someone says God is this way .. and you say God is another way . then live it in response . can't argue with that .

but if you still feel compelled to say something . take the example of Ezekiel . say it once . and then act it out continually .

 

[Loukuss]

Mmm.. His argument is often very poor: he introduces an area of discussion, chooses an easy target within that area, demolishes his easy target, chucks in a few random personal attacks, and then claims to have dealt with the whole field.

His little bit on the bible is quite laughable.

agreed on all points above, however, i did find a few things that he said true. one thing:

'but why, in any case, do we readily accept the idea that the one thing you must do it you want to please God is believe in him? whats so special about believing?'

i believe he is speaking about a great number within western christianity who claim to be christians because they believe that God exists and Jesus did his thing on the cross, yet continue to live as though they werent bought with blood to live altogether differently than the rest of the world.
i also find this type of christianity uncompelling and dishonest, especially when these same people turn around and judge their neighbour for whatever sin they find repulsive.
unfortunately, i dont think many of those christians would make it to page 131 before burning this book in the fireplace.

 

[ebia]

agreed on all points above, however, i did find a few things that he said true. one thing:

'but why, in any case, do we readily accept the idea that the one thing you must do it you want to please God is believe in him? whats so special about believing?'

i believe he is speaking about a great number within western christianity who claim to be christians because they believe that God exists and Jesus did his thing on the cross, yet continue to live as though they werent bought with blood to live altogether differently than the rest of the world.
i also find this type of christianity uncompelling and dishonest, especially when these same people turn around and judge their neighbour for whatever sin they find repulsive.

Sure. The problem with the book is not that those distortions don't exist, but that he acts as though by pointing out the flaws in the distortions he has addresses the real thing.

 

[Loukuss]

Sure. The problem with the book is not that those distortions don't exist, but that he acts as though by pointing out the flaws in the distortions he has addresses the real thing.

agree completely.
as frustrating as this book was to read (i wanted to throw it across the room more than a few times) i believe itd do the average christian well to read it.