How should we read Paul?

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

Strong in Him said:
Yes. Because how could I be absolutely certain that the voice I heard, or message I received was from Jesus?
I am one of his sheep, I know his voice and I trust him; I also know the devil could use my own thoughts and desires to distract me, or lead me astray. Or he could use my fickle, human feelings to assure me that something was right when it wasn't.
Jesus said that the devil is a liar and a murderer, and said that false prophets would try to deceive even God's own people. John also told us to test the spirits. So if I receive a word from the Lord, there is absolutely no harm in saying "Lord please confirm this to me". i
If what I received from God was a prophecy for someone else, I would definitely say "please pray about this and talk and pray about it with more discerning Christians if you feel you need to. I believe Scripture teaches that prophecies should be tested and certain matters taken before the whole church.

That is your opinion, but it's not a sin to doubt in any case.

No.

James and the apostles were not saying that the Holy Spirit has commanded us to write this letter and it can never be revoked; its contents will apply for all time. That advice seemed good to them at the time that they wrote the letter, but people's understanding of God and his ways, change. We can see this all the way through Scripture; people grew in their understanding of God. once, God commanded that boys be circumcised to be his people; later, circumcision was of the heart. Once, people had to kill animals and spill their blood for their sins to be forgiven; later they came to understand that Jesus came to shed his blood to atone for sin. In the OT prophets began to speak of a Messiah who was to come - but it took centuries for people to understand; ad when Jesus did come, they (mostly) missed him.

Jesus told us what a sin against the Holy Spirit is - knowing that something is from God and, nevertheless, attributing it to Satan, Mark 3:22-28.
If Paul had blasphemed against the Spirit, he would not have been forgiven. Yet Paul healed, baptised, preached the Gospel and taught about God's love and forgiveness for all sinners, Roman 5:1-8; 2 Corinthians 5:14-21.
How and why could the Spirit give Paul the power to do this, if Paul was an unforgiven blasphemer?

Did Jesus ever speak to you? Appear to you? Paul made that claim. But Paul was an unrepentant murderer when he had his Damascus road experience. Are you in the habit of believing extraordinary claims made by a felon? Paul went on to make drastic changes in regard to the Sabbath, the Festivals, circumcision, and the Law. Don't you ask why should we believe Paul when he claims to be speaking for Jesus?

According to Jesus doubt shows a lack of faith. Paul doubted his gospel and had to check it out with the Apostles.

According to Paul, Paul was a great guy.

redleghunter · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
I am confident that I use Scripture for a good purpose.

Good in the sense of calling an apostle a liar?

redleghunter · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
you [Paul] are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses

The Pharisees made the same claim against Christ.

redleghunter · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Can the NT be correct if the OT is incorrect? I don't think so.
So the NT cannot contradict the OT and still be correct.
How can the Law be a curse? That seems like blasphemy.
Jesus supported the Law.
When the messianic age begins we will have a new covenant.
Look what the angel said about Jesus....
Luke 1:32-33New American Standard Bible (NASB)
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

But Jesus never sat on the throne of David and never reigned over the house of Jacob.[That has to include the 10 lost tribes]
Jesus never fulfilled even one of the legitimate messianic Scriptures of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Sure you have a list of unverified fulfillments like riding a donkey. But the true messianic prophecies to identify the Messiah are so awesome that when they are fulfilled everyone will know that God's kingdom has been established on earth, the messianic age has begun, and the messiah is on king David's throne.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

Did Jesus do this? NO!

But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Did Jesus do this? NO!

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Has Jesus made this happen? NO!

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Has Jesus gathered the Twelve tribes of Israel? NO!

And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Is Jesus sitting on the throne in the tabernacle of David? NO!

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely:

Is Jesus a King executing justice in the earth? Are Judah and Israel dwelling in safety? NO!

I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour.

Has iniquity been removed? Is every man a neighbor? NO!

Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Did Jesus build the Temple and sit upon his throne? NO!

But the humble will inherit the land
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.
For the arms of the wicked will be broken,
But the Lord sustains the righteous.
The Lord knows the days of the blameless,
And their inheritance will be forever.
They will not be ashamed in the time of evil,
And in the days of famine they will have abundance.
But the wicked will perish;
And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures,
They vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

Has this happened? NO!

“Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it,” declares the Lord.’”

Has this happened? NO!

And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Has this happened? NO!

They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Has this happened? NO!

Are you denying Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah?

redleghunter · Jul 18, 2016

Lulav said:
Why did James emphasize to Paul that there were thousands upon thousands, perhaps 10's of thousands of Jewish believers in the Messiah who were 'zealous for the law' which means they all believed it was not done away with? Why did Paul have to prove he still walked uprightly, meaning kept the Law?

Which became an irrelevant point upon the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. Where does one now go to follow the Law completely?

If one reads Paul in the Light of Jesus' words, there is no confusion. That goes for any of the apostles.

redleghunter · Jul 18, 2016

Lulav said:
Do you mean the Jewish Apostles?

Apparently, the Jewish Apostles (Paul was a Jew as well) had no issues with Paul. Even the leader amongst peers said this:

Acts 15: (NKJV)

15 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christa we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

redleghunter · Jul 18, 2016

Lulav said:
I am surprised you understand that about the 'basic instruction' (which all stem from Torah btw) and it was because they were new to the faith but why don't you understand that they were to learn it, just as James spoke of by being in the synagogues and hearing the word read each Shabbat?

The Law is our tutor. YHWH promised to put His statutes in our hearts and make us walk in them (Ezekiel 36). Jesus Christ preached the Law as love of God and neighbor. In order to understand what is revealed of God's Mind we all must know the Law, the Prophets and the Writings. If not, we do not know why Christ came to justify us, to sanctify us and one day to glorify us. Paul ties this in quite securely in Romans 8----Conforming us to the image of His Son.

Strong in Him · Jul 18, 2016

Lulav said:
That is interesting that you said you were one of his sheep and you know his voice, so then it would mean that those who are not his sheep wouldn't recognize his voive, right?

That may explain this:

Acts 9:5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you ..
Acts 22:8 "'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. "'I am Jesus of Nazareth ...
Acts 26:15 "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' " 'I am Jesus, whom
One of the things that doesn't change in the three times his conversion is recorded.

Paul was a Pharisee, a Jew, when he wrote that.
He said "who are you LORD?" so he recognised that God was speaking to him. But he was persecuting followers of the way - believers in the Lord Jesus. So of course he didn't belong to Jesus; he was not a follower, did not accept his atoning death and resurrection and had not been filled with his Spirit, who is the one who guarantees that we are children of God, Romans 8:16-17.

Lulav said:
Jesus: "But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'"

Paul: "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."

?? Paul agrees with Jesus here; what are you saying?

redleghunter · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Did Jesus ever speak to you? Appear to you? Paul made that claim. But Paul was an unrepentant murderer when he had his Damascus road experience. Are you in the habit of believing extraordinary claims made by a felon?

You don't believe sinful humans are led to repentance by the Holy Spirit? Paul submitted to the will of God after the Damascus encounter. He was blinded, left alone and distraught. Where do you see Paul was unrepentant?

redleghunter · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Paul doubted his gospel and had to check it out with the Apostles.

I already addressed this. Read Galatians 2 in its entirety.

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

redleghunter said:
Good in the sense of calling an apostle a liar?

Romans 3:7
But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?
How many lies does it take to make a liar?
2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit

Does deceit count as a lie?

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

redleghunter said:
The Pharisees made the same claim against Christ.

Since we are discussing Paul, did he speak against Moses? Because of Paul, are Christians today against Moses because they claim the Law has been done away with? Moses said to circumcise...Paul said no. Isn't that opposition to Moses?

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

redleghunter said:
Are you denying Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah?

Luke 1:32-33New American Standard Bible (NASB)
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

What a fabulous introduction.
But Jesus never sat on the throne of David. He never reigned over the house of Jacob. That has to include the 10 lost tribes regathered. In fact Jesus never fulfilled any of the Messianic prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Tell me...what did Jesus do that we can see that has benefited mankind?
Go ahead...convince me...tell me why you think Jesus is God's messiah.

redleghunter · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Romans 3:7
But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?
How many lies does it take to make a liar?
2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit

Does deceit count as a lie?

Now you are being facetious. You should know well Paul exercised hyperbole to get a point across.

redleghunter · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Since we are discussing Paul, did he speak against Moses? Because of Paul, are Christians today against Moses because they claim the Law has been done away with? Moses said to circumcise...Paul said no. Isn't that opposition to Moses?

I looked but could not find a response to my post to you reference the 613 laws. Which can be grouped as the Moral law, Civil/Judicial law, and Ceremonial law. Do you keep all of the above? If not which ones are no longer in effect without a temple?

redleghunter · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Luke 1:32-33New American Standard Bible (NASB)
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

What a fabulous introduction.
But Jesus never sat on the throne of David. He never reigned over the house of Jacob. That has to include the 10 lost tribes regathered. In fact Jesus never fulfilled any of the Messianic prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Tell me...what did Jesus do that we can see that has benefited mankind?
Go ahead...convince me...tell me why you think Jesus is God's messiah.

How are you Messianic if you deny Jesus is the Messiah?

Strong in Him · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Did Jesus ever speak to you?

Yes.

nick notes said:
But Paul was an unrepentant murderer when he had his Damascus road experience.

So? Are you saying that God's grace cannot reach out to unrepentant murderers?
All of us are Godless sinners before we meet him and learn of his love for us. There have been some amazing testimonies from drug addicts, ex prisoners, thieves, murderers, people involved in the occult, and so on. Are you saying that their testimonies are suspect because they were not good, righteous people at the time of their conversion?

nick notes said:
Are you in the habit of believing extraordinary claims made by a felon?

If they are a felon who has met with the Lord Jesus and whose life and behaviour has been obviously changed as a result; yes. Because I believe Jesus, know his love and trust his power.

nick notes said:
Paul went on to make drastic changes in regard to the Sabbath, the Festivals, circumcision, and the Law. Don't you ask why should we believe Paul when he claims to be speaking for Jesus?

The law of Moses was given to the Israelites, NOT Gentiles. It was God's covenant with his people and instructed them how to live as his people. So we were never under the Jewish law.
Even if we had been, Jesus told the Jews that he had come to fulfil their law. Jesus himself healed on the Sabbath and said that the Son of Man was Lord of the Sabbath. Regarding food laws; he also said that nothing that goes into the mouth can make a person unclean.

PAUL did not make changes to anything. He rightly taught that Gentiles were not under the Jewish law. The early church met to discuss this, Acts 15 - and Paul was not even the head of the church.

nick notes said:
According to Jesus doubt shows a lack of faith.

And yet he still helped, met with and talked to those who had doubts; he did not condemn them.
When the man said to Jesus "IF you want to, you can make me clean"; what did Jesus say - "well obviously I can, but I'm not going to now because you have doubted and shown no faith"? No; he healed him.
When Thomas said that he would not believe unless he saw Jesus' wounds, what did Jesus say? He didn't say, "after all you've seen me do; raise Lazarus, calm the storm, why do you need to see my wounds to believe?" No, he appeared to him and said "touch me".
When John the Baptist sent men, from prison, to ask Jesus "are you the one who is to come or should we expect someone else?" Jesus did not tell him off; he gave the men a message for John, and then praised John to the crowds.
Jesus said "have faith", many times to the disciples, yet when they doubted, he explained all over again, gave them more proof and was patient with them.

nick notes said:
Paul doubted his gospel and had to check it out with the Apostles.

No he didn't.
Acts 9 says that he was converted and immediately began preaching that Jesus was the Messiah.

Paul wrote to the Galatians that after 3 years in Arabia he went to Jerusalem to talk to the disciples. That is because the Galatians were doubting Paul's ministry. They were saying much the same as you - that he got his Gospel from others and was not really an apostle at all. So Paul emphasised to them that it was Jesus who called him and gave him the Gospel. He told them that he went off to Arabia and had no contact with them for 3 years - meaning that he couldn't collude with them and get the gospel 2nd hand.

nick notes said:
According to Paul, Paul was a great guy.

According to Paul; Paul was the chief of sinners, didn't deserve to be called an apostle but was one ONLY by the grace of God.

Strong in Him · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Yes...I'm blowing off Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich because you are trying to waste my time with your Greek lexicon.

The NT was written in Greek.
Anyone who has knowledge of the language and can tell us what the original texts mean is to be admired. You seem to dismiss what that forummer was saying, even though he will know what he is talking about

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

redleghunter said:
You don't believe sinful humans are led to repentance by the Holy Spirit? Paul submitted to the will of God after the Damascus encounter. He was blinded, left alone and distraught. Where do you see Paul was unrepentant?

Acts 9:1-4New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, 2 and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
here we have Saul[Paul] breathing threats and murder, he gets his sheriff's badge and he's on his way to Damascus to bag some Christians...and lo and behold Paul has his Damascus road experience.
Where between "threats and murder" and supposedly meeting Jesus did Paul have an opportunity to repent?

Thank you for reminding me that Paul was blinded by the light.
Acts 26:15-16New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 And I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;

If Paul had been blinded how could Jesus have appeared to him?

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

redleghunter said:
I already addressed this. Read Galatians 2 in its entirety.

I think we both made our positions known on this. I'm still sticking to Paul's doubt as I am sure you will deny.

How should we read Paul?

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