How should we read Paul?

Der Alte · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Luke 23:55-56New American Standard Bible (NASB)
55 Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. 56 Then they returned andprepared spices and perfumes.
And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

I wonder why these women who knew Jesus "on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment."
Also interesting is that this is from Luke's Gospel and he was a buddy of Paul.

ewq1938 said:
Why is it interesting since they are Jews under the old covenant. After Christ rose from the dead things changed and they didn't keep the Saturday Sabbath anymore.

You beat me to the punch.

Der Alte · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
I don't know Michael Rood.
But I do know there are problems with Matthew's Gospel.
For Example........
In Matthew's Gospel, there is a passage, which contains several proofs that Matthew's Gospel contains Fiction.
Matthew 28:11-15 (New American Standard Bible)
11Now while they were on their way, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all that had happened.
12And when they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers,
13and said, "You are to say, 'His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep.'
14"And if this should come to the governor's ears, we will win him over and keep you out of trouble."
15And they took the money and did as they had been instructed; and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day.
List of Proofs.
Here is my list of proofs.
1) The Jewish Priests and Elders tell the guards to say "" 'His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep."" This is a ridiculous story to tell. Everyone knows that if the guards were asleep they would be unconscious and not know what happened. The ruling Jewish Sanhedrin was 71 members, seventy elders and the High Priest reputed to be amongst the wisest men. It is not believable that these very smart Jews would concoct such a dumb story.
2) In the Roman world, the penalty for sleeping while on guard duty was death. It is doubtful that even with a "good word" from the High Priest [Matthew 28:14] to the Roman Governor, he would have suspended the death sentence. It is not believable that the guards would have lied and said they were sleeping and subject themselves to the death penalty. Can't spend money if you're dead.
3) The Priests and Elders were very religious men. According to Jesus they were very careful about observing every point of the law, but were missing the spirit of the Law. Matthew 23:23-23-24 It is not believable that these religious men would suborn false witness and commit such a grave sin.
4)The Roman Governor would never believe such a dumb story ""'His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep." One did not get to rule an entire country by being an idiot.
5) This conspiracy to tell this lie, that the disciples stole the body, involves, the guards, the Jewish leadership, and even the office of the Roman Governor. It is not believable that a conspiracy based on such a poor lie would have held together. But that is what Matthew asks his readers to believe. "And they took the money and did as they had been instructed; and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day." Matthew 28:15 Matthew would have his readers believe the conspiracy lasted for years after the event. Not believable.
6) We have the witness of the four gospels. But only Matthew's gospel mentions a guard on the tomb. Not even a hint from the other gospels. The guard on the tomb is a vital element of the Jesus resurrection story. Had the guard existed the other gospel writers would have most assuredly mentioned it. To fail to mention such an important aspect of the story would be to miss the point of the story. Jesus was in the tomb, the guard was on duty, the tomb was now empty, so Jesus must have resurrected. The other gospel writers didn't mention the guard because this was Matthew's fiction.

This entire post is copied word for word from this website. A 2010 discussion between someone using the name "christshepherd" and another using the name "zzyzx". And you said you didn't copy paste! Tsk tsk. One of these could have been you but not both, unless you were dishonestly posting with two names, giving the false impression that two people were having a discussion.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14799&lofi=1

The same argument was also posted at this website in 2014 by someone using the name "ebalt5"

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthre...inal-wording-of-Jesus-cannot-be-proven/page11

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

redleghunter said:
Which works save us?

You can try the 613 commandments. http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

redleghunter said:
Yes but anyone can use scriptures for their own purpose. See Matthew 4.

I am confident that I use Scripture for a good purpose.

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

redleghunter said:
What an understatement.

What do you call someone meeting your accusations against Paul?

Better yet, what does the Bible tells us about someone who lies, deceives and trangresses the Law? You have accused Paul of all of the above.

All my observations about Paul were backed up with Scripture.
Was Paul willing to LIE to convince you?
Romans 3:7
But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?

I have become all things to all men, 1Cor 9:22
Can we trust such a man?

Paul conspired to lie
Acts 21:20-24
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

The truth….you [Paul] are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

The Lie…all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

jerry kelso said:
nick notes,

The book of James is not about the law keeping of Moses if that is what you are insinuating.
Martin Luther thought that and wanted it out of the canon of scripture. He was wrong and if that is what you think, then you are wrong.
Feel free to explain if this is what you mean and why you think that and I'll be glad to talk to you about it. Jerry Kelso

Do you think I am mistaken? Was Martin Luther wrong?
I suppose you are entitled to your opinion.

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

jerry kelso said:
nicknotes,

1. Fabricating anti-law theology?
Paul wasn't anti-law but he was opposed to the keeping of the Mosaic law because they were under the new covenant law.

2. Righteous men were always to live by faith. But the revelation in each age was different. Men were always saved by grace through faith and not keeping the law whether in old or new testament times.

3. In Romans Paul made the distinction of the righteousness of the law which was the law of Moses. The man that doeth them shall live in them. They had to do to attain.

4. The righteousness by faith under the new covenant is we do because of who we are in Christ and the power of his finished work through the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection.

5. So being righteous by faith had a different connotation because of a different revelation of the redemptive picture in Moses day.

6. The Mosaic Ethic was different than the New Covenant and had weaknesses and the New Covenant was built on better promises. If one does not learn the full understanding of the differences of the two covenants they can become confused and render the scripture wrong.

7. So Paul wasn't being dishonest about his rendering of the scripture. The fact is that Paul knew the old covenant and was given new revelation about the mystery of the church and other things including the new covenant which no man taught him.
Because he understood the weaknesses of the old Covenant and the better promises of the new covenant is why Peter said Paul stated things hard to be understood.

8. Romans 1:17 was about the just living by faith and the reason is found in verse 18; For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
Verse 19; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them for God hath shewed unto them.
And it goes on to say about understanding God through creation and that they knew God and yet didn't retain them in their memory.
So the context of the righteousness of the law of Moses and the righteousness of faith through the new covenant are two different things.
The just living by faith of believing in God and living for him was the same principle in the light of upholding the truth in every age.
So you are confusing the two issues.

9. As far as Galatians 3:11 Paul is talking about the law of Moses by which no man could be justified in being saved for no one is saved or justified by works. Only Christ can stamp approval on a sinner as justified. The work in salvation is a fruit and an act of obedience not the act to merit.

10. The Just shall live by faith is the faith of righteousness and not by the righteousness of the Mosaic law.

11. The law of Moses was not by faith. It could only state the commandment but had no power to help a person to perform the commandment. Only the power of the endless life of Christ can do this and this was a better promise.

12. The reason Moses law of righteousness was not of faith is because they mostly would end up doing things in their own strength and produce self effort. The reason for this is because Romans 7 says the Law which was the law of Moses was holy and good but the law of sin and death took advantage of it and made them live to the frailty of man which produced sin.

13. This is why in verse 13 of Galatians 3 he said Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us.

14. One has to get a bigger picture of the real meaning of the passages and not merely what it seems it is saying that one may think is a slam dunk when it is not. Plain statements have contexts too that have to be weighed out as well. Jerry Kelso

Can the NT be correct if the OT is incorrect? I don't think so.
So the NT cannot contradict the OT and still be correct.
How can the Law be a curse? That seems like blasphemy.
Jesus supported the Law.
When the messianic age begins we will have a new covenant.
Look what the angel said about Jesus....
Luke 1:32-33New American Standard Bible (NASB)
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

But Jesus never sat on the throne of David and never reigned over the house of Jacob.[That has to include the 10 lost tribes]
Jesus never fulfilled even one of the legitimate messianic Scriptures of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Sure you have a list of unverified fulfillments like riding a donkey. But the true messianic prophecies to identify the Messiah are so awesome that when they are fulfilled everyone will know that God's kingdom has been established on earth, the messianic age has begun, and the messiah is on king David's throne.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

Did Jesus do this? NO!

But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Did Jesus do this? NO!

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Has Jesus made this happen? NO!

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Has Jesus gathered the Twelve tribes of Israel? NO!

And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Is Jesus sitting on the throne in the tabernacle of David? NO!

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely:

Is Jesus a King executing justice in the earth? Are Judah and Israel dwelling in safety? NO!

I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour.

Has iniquity been removed? Is every man a neighbor? NO!

Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Did Jesus build the Temple and sit upon his throne? NO!

But the humble will inherit the land
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.
For the arms of the wicked will be broken,
But the Lord sustains the righteous.
The Lord knows the days of the blameless,
And their inheritance will be forever.
They will not be ashamed in the time of evil,
And in the days of famine they will have abundance.
But the wicked will perish;
And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures,
They vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

Has this happened? NO!

“Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it,” declares the Lord.’”

Has this happened? NO!

And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Has this happened? NO!

They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Has this happened? NO!

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

Der Alter said:
You beat me to the punch.

I answered this for another poster. You can look and find it.

jerry kelso · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Do you think I am mistaken? Was Martin Luther wrong?
I suppose you are entitled to your opinion.

nick notes,

It is not about opinion, but of context.
Now if you think you are right give your opinion and I will tell you the truth. Jerry Kelso

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

Der Alter said:
This entire post is copied word for word from this website. A 2010 discussion between someone using the name "christshepherd" and another using the name "zzyzx". And you said you didn't copy paste! Tsk tsk. One of these could have been you but not both, unless you were dishonestly posting with two names, giving the false impression that two people were having a discussion.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14799&lofi=1

The same argument was also posted at this website in 2014 by someone using the name "ebalt5"

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthre...inal-wording-of-Jesus-cannot-be-proven/page11

I have used christshepherd and ebalt5 on other forums and I can assure you I write my own articles.
But I see what you are doing. You are trying to find a way to attack me personally rather than arguing against my writings.

Righttruth · Jul 18, 2016

redleghunter said:
The above does not help out your case.

That is what you think.

nick notes · Jul 18, 2016

jerry kelso said:
nick notes,

It is not about opinion, but of context.
Now if you think you are right give your opinion and I will tell you the truth. Jerry Kelso

Here are some quotes from James that IMO support the Law and doing the work of obeying the Law.
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judgeof it.

Lulav · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Acts 9:7
It is discrepancies in Paul's testimony that makes me skeptical of Paul

Hi there, I see you're new here.

It is good you've seen the so called contradictions and seemingly discrepancies, for that is what they are there for.

If you use the Foundations of G-ds Word to measure everything by you will eventually see that they are there for a reason.

By Paul's own admission he says:

Romans 7-14-24

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. http://biblehub.com/romans/7-15.htm
I do not understand what I do.
For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. http://biblehub.com/romans/7-16.htm
And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.
For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moses told the people that G-d said he would sent another like Moses to speak His words to them and they were to listen to him. (This was Jesus/Yeshua)

However G-d also tests his people and anyone that would say they came to speak his words yet draw men away from keeping Torah you were not to listen to them.

If you take Jesus' words and compare them to the Torah you will see he taught nothing different. He was a true prophet. In reference to understanding Paul which
has been going on for hundreds of years.

Nehemiah 13:2 says: For they had not provided the Israelites with food and water in the wilderness. Instead, they hired Balaam to curse them, though our God turned the curse into a blessing.

2 Peter speaks of False Prophets-- Balaam----15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor,

Jude 1:11--Woe to them! They have traveled the path of Cain; they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam; they have perished in Korah's rebellion.

That would be one of the chief disciples and Jesus' brother, 'Juda' who said these things. They mesh well with the Revelation of Jesus to John.

Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against you, because some of you hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to place a stumbling block before the Israelites so they would eat food sacrificed to idols and commit sexual immorality.

What is a stumbling block? It is a test.

Paul actually mentions those words 'stumbling block' six times to three of the congregations he writes to, so he is very familiar with this and I think is giving out a hint.

In Acts 9:15 we read …“Go!” said the Lord. “This man is My chosen instrument to carry My name before the Gentiles and their kings, and before the people of Israel.
16 I will show him how much he must suffer for My name.”

Which brings us back to Romans where he says he is not doing what he wants to do, but what sin wants him to do. What is sin?

John tells us

3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

Back to the foundation, the Torah Deut 13:3

The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

The thing most don't understand is that He is always testing, why? because He is righteous and on that day when we stand before the throne and are asked why we didn't keep his commandments because we love him,. we won't have an excuse because he gave us all we needed to know, the foundation, The Torah., also called the 'Instructions'.

Ever make a purchase of something and not read the instructions on how to use it? Then it breaks and you try to get a replacement, but find out that you voided the warranty because you didn't follow the instructions?

jerry kelso · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Can the NT be correct if the OT is incorrect? I don't think so.
So the NT cannot contradict the OT and still be correct.
How can the Law be a curse? That seems like blasphemy.
Jesus supported the Law.
When the messianic age begins we will have a new covenant.
Look what the angel said about Jesus....
Luke 1:32-33New American Standard Bible (NASB)
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

But Jesus never sat on the throne of David and never reigned over the house of Jacob.[That has to include the 10 lost tribes]
Jesus never fulfilled even one of the legitimate messianic Scriptures of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Sure you have a list of unverified fulfillments like riding a donkey. But the true messianic prophecies to identify the Messiah are so awesome that when they are fulfilled everyone will know that God's kingdom has been established on earth, the messianic age has begun, and the messiah is on king David's throne.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

Did Jesus do this? NO!

But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Did Jesus do this? NO!

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Has Jesus made this happen? NO!

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Has Jesus gathered the Twelve tribes of Israel? NO!

And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Is Jesus sitting on the throne in the tabernacle of David? NO!

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely:

Is Jesus a King executing justice in the earth? Are Judah and Israel dwelling in safety? NO!

I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour.

Has iniquity been removed? Is every man a neighbor? NO!

Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Did Jesus build the Temple and sit upon his throne? NO!

But the humble will inherit the land
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.
For the arms of the wicked will be broken,
But the Lord sustains the righteous.
The Lord knows the days of the blameless,
And their inheritance will be forever.
They will not be ashamed in the time of evil,
And in the days of famine they will have abundance.
But the wicked will perish;
And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures,
They vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

Has this happened? NO!

“Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it,” declares the Lord.’”

Has this happened? NO!

And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Has this happened? NO!

They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Has this happened? NO!

nicknotes,

1. Both the old testament and the new testaments are right in their proper perspective truth.

2. The old testament concealed is the new testament revealed.
The old testament was veiled in types and shadows and many of the prophecies were not fulfilled until Christ came and fulfilled many of them in his ministry and when he died and rose again.
In this respect there is no contradiction.

3. What you fail to understand is gradual revelation and why the law of Moses had to be fulfilled by Christ Matthew 5:17 reach its goal Romans 10:4 and abolished 2 Corinthians 3:13.

4. There has always been law and grace in each age but in different ways and stewardships.

5. In the age of conscience murder was sin but there was no written law specifically to murder.

6. Cain killed Abel and was not punished by a mandatory law on murder. At the same time he knew people would want to kill him because of their conscience told them it was wrong, etc.

7. Under the law of Moses if you committed adultery you were stoned to death or if your child sassed you the same. This is not mandatory for the church today.

8. The Mosaic law had 613 laws and a 1000 or more statutes and commandments that the jewish nation had to keep in order to be blessed. They had to do something to receive something.

9. Jesus showed this in the Sermon on the Mount. The children of Israel were in a full theocracy of God as a physical nation with a specific blessing and cursing system that the church is not under.

10. Israel was backslidden in Jesus day; Blessed are they that mourn. Mourn means to repent and the church is not to be backslidden.

11. Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. This is what they were supposed to be to inherit the millennial kingdom.

12. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall see God but there were at least 28 insurrections against the Roman government so they were not seeking peace for they hated the Romans.
On and on of their failure to receive the physical KOH because they would not receive the spiritual aspect of the KOG in their hearts.

13. The law was holy and good but its weakness was that it did not have power to save a soul from sin. It did not have the power to help them perform the commandment. It was taken advantage of by the law of sin and death according to Romans 7 and made the law keeper of Moses live to the frailty of man and self effort and the result was sin.

14. Jesus did not preach the death, burial, and resurrection message in his earthly ministry because it was about the Jews only receiving eternal life through believing he was Messiah and in Messiah that he would save them from their sins and then they could receive the physical KOH reign on earth. Matthew 4:17; Repent, for the KOH is at hand. God will not rule with man without a holy heart just like the kind that started with Adam and Eve. They oversaw the garden and were sinless but as soon as they sinned they were kicked out of the garden.

15. Israel rejected Jesus of the KOH and the KOG Matthew 23:37-39. This is why in John 6 right before he went to the cross they didn't understand about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. This is why in Matthew 16 that Peter didn't understand why anyone would kill the Messiah and Jesus said get behind me Satan for you don't savor the things of God. Christ knew Satan was using Peter and his ignorance of the death burial and resurrection message as well as his zeal to protect Christ and that is why he said Peter didn't savor the things of God which would be the redemptive plan of God.

16. Concerning the scriptures of prophecies of the coming Davidic kingdom not happening. They were supposed to happen in Jesus day but the jews rejected Jesus message and the kingdom. Since their covenants of Abraham and David both that pertain to them only and were and still are unconditional covenants conditioned on obedience it will not be later till they repent and receive the KOH reign.

17. Jesus messiahship was under the Mosaic law era and that period was different in the structure of rule of laws etc and were only for the jews because the gentiles had no covenants and they had to be proselyted into Judaism before the cross.

18. So their is no contradictions between the old and new covenants. You need to understand the gradual revelation of how God dealt with men accordingly so you won't be so confused. Jerry kelso

Strong in Him · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
If you received a message from Jesus himself would you find it necessary to check out Jesus' message with other men?

Yes. Because how could I be absolutely certain that the voice I heard, or message I received was from Jesus?
I am one of his sheep, I know his voice and I trust him; I also know the devil could use my own thoughts and desires to distract me, or lead me astray. Or he could use my fickle, human feelings to assure me that something was right when it wasn't.
Jesus said that the devil is a liar and a murderer, and said that false prophets would try to deceive even God's own people. John also told us to test the spirits. So if I receive a word from the Lord, there is absolutely no harm in saying "Lord please confirm this to me". i
If what I received from God was a prophecy for someone else, I would definitely say "please pray about this and talk and pray about it with more discerning Christians if you feel you need to. I believe Scripture teaches that prophecies should be tested and certain matters taken before the whole church.

nick notes said:
IMO Paul definitely expressed doubt in his Gospel.

That is your opinion, but it's not a sin to doubt in any case.

nick notes said:
Paul Lied and Sinned Against the Holy Spirit.
In Acts Chapter 15 the Leaders of the New Christian Church met to make some rules.
The following Scripture is their ruling.

Acts 15:28-29New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

Notice that the Holy Spirit complied with this ruling.
Also notice that one of the rulings by the Leaders and the Holy Spirit was to abstain from things sacrificed to idols.

BTW Paul was present at this meeting and surely was aware of this ruling.
But look what Paul preached.

1 Timothy 4:4-5New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

1 Corinthians 8:4-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?

After reading this passage by Paul in first Corinthians isn't it obvious that Paul is advocating eating food sacrificed to idols in contradiction of the command by the Holy Spirit and the Leaders of the Church?

Isn't this an intentional sin against the Holy Spirit?

No.

James and the apostles were not saying that the Holy Spirit has commanded us to write this letter and it can never be revoked; its contents will apply for all time. That advice seemed good to them at the time that they wrote the letter, but people's understanding of God and his ways, change. We can see this all the way through Scripture; people grew in their understanding of God. once, God commanded that boys be circumcised to be his people; later, circumcision was of the heart. Once, people had to kill animals and spill their blood for their sins to be forgiven; later they came to understand that Jesus came to shed his blood to atone for sin. In the OT prophets began to speak of a Messiah who was to come - but it took centuries for people to understand; ad when Jesus did come, they (mostly) missed him.

Jesus told us what a sin against the Holy Spirit is - knowing that something is from God and, nevertheless, attributing it to Satan, Mark 3:22-28.
If Paul had blasphemed against the Spirit, he would not have been forgiven. Yet Paul healed, baptised, preached the Gospel and taught about God's love and forgiveness for all sinners, Roman 5:1-8; 2 Corinthians 5:14-21.
How and why could the Spirit give Paul the power to do this, if Paul was an unforgiven blasphemer?

Lulav · Jul 18, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Yet you do question Paul's writings which make up most of the NT, and you have expressed concerns about Acts which Luke wrote. Luke and the other disciples believed in Paul yet you don't. The problem is you have sided with the Jews against Christians like Paul. You believe just as they did and do that Paul is a traitor or liar or any number of bad things, all which are false and untrue.

Does that really make sense? You seem to be saying that all the thousands of Jews that were in Jerusalem that day were all mistaken about what he was teaching? And only Paul is right?

Why did James emphasize to Paul that there were thousands upon thousands, perhaps 10's of thousands of Jewish believers in the Messiah who were 'zealous for the law' which means they all believed it was not done away with? Why did Paul have to prove he still walked uprightly, meaning kept the Law?

Lulav · Jul 18, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Why did the disciples? Obviously they knew if Paul was true of not. You are just plain wrong and have let Jews influence you too much against the Apostles of Christ.

Do you mean the Jewish Apostles?

jerry kelso · Jul 18, 2016

nick notes said:
Here are some quotes from James that IMO support the Law and doing the work of obeying the Law.
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judgeof it.

nicknotes,

1. Sorry, but you misunderstand James.

2. First of all James is a new covenant believer of the church of Jews and Gentiles where everyone is on the same level.

3. At the same time his ministry is basically to the jewish tribes who are scattered and so this is one reason for the language he uses of terms from the old covenant. No killing committing adultery etc. were wrong before the Mosaic law as well but since they were jews they understood them from the law of Moses.

4. The law of liberty is the new covenant for the law was of wrath.
James is not talking about merely doing but who they really were when they looked into the mirror.

5. Plenty of christians will profess certain beliefs and doctrines etc but it is not really who they are in Christ.

6. Another words the book of James is a barometer for where you are in your christian life and if what you say lines up with your actions or not. Even if you are well meaning in what you believe in everyday things or certain doctrinal issues does it line up with your continuous actions.

7. The mirror will show whether you are or not.

8. The law of not wanting to sin and overcoming and everything was to be who they were but more than not they did not achieve that. Self effort was more evident because of Romans 7 and the law of sin and death taking advantage of the law that was holy and good.

9. James shows that Abraham was justified by works as a fruit. His action of obedience by faith was the action of pleasing God and not meriting salvation. Only God can justify and put his stamp of approval on one and claim them as his for he alone knows the heart.

10. Everyone has to be obedient to God and what he commands them to do. Obedience of faith can be considered a work for one has to put legs to faith for God will not do it for them. However, it cannot be to merit because one is not saved by works but by grace.

11. When one does the work of obedience by faith God is pleased because without faith it is impossible to please God. But it is the work of Christ at Calvary which no man did but he alone and it is he alone that knows the heart and he alone that can stamp his approval and justify men and women with salvation and claim them as his children.
So you are misunderstanding James and the substance of his context concerning the old and new covenants and works and grace.

12. All generations have always had to be doers of whatever revelation they understood about the redemptive plan of God. Until you understand the mechanics of the old covenant and how it differs from the old covenant you will never come to the truth of the context and what better promises Christ brought with the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection. Jerry Kelso

Lulav · Jul 18, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Re-read my post and you will see these questions make no sense.
How to honor the Sabbath changed which is why Christianity does not and has not celebrated the Saturday Sabbath. Only fringe cults keep the Jewish Sabbath and they only keep it in an easy way and not according to how the Jews had to. Most "Sabbath keepers" are fakers because they don't keep it according to all the original rules.

The Early 'church' did until the temple was destroyed. You can verify this when you read historical writings by the Gentile church fathers. There wouldn't have been a necessity to 'change' it to Sun day unless they were keeping it.

redleghunter said:
There was no doubt as I posted the corresponding verses which put the dialogue within context.

No it is not a sin against the Holy Spirit. Note well Paul's discussion of conscience. He is clearly showing the difference between a mature Christian and an immature Christian. At the time of the Jerusalem council the Gentile churches were young and immature. The council gave them basic instructions to avoid sinful situations.

I will note you have launched a serious judgement against Paul a brother in Christ.

Do you view Paul as a false prophet?

I am surprised you understand that about the 'basic instruction' (which all stem from Torah btw) and it was because they were new to the faith but why don't you understand that they were to learn it, just as James spoke of by being in the synagogues and hearing the word read each Shabbat?

As far as a judgement against Paul, we are commanded to not believe man, but God alone.

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" ...

This comes from the Torah, Deut 8

2"You shall remember all the way which the L-RD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.
3 "He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.

So were all these things, everything that proceeded out of the mouth of the L-RD abolished?

Paul ever warned:

Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that You may be justified in Your words, and prevail in Your judgments.”

Strong in Him said:
Yes. Because how could I be absolutely certain that the voice I heard, or message I received was from Jesus?
I am one of his sheep, I know his voice and I trust him; I also know the devil could use my own thoughts and desires to distract me, or lead me astray. Or he could use my fickle, human feelings to assure me that something was right when it wasn't.
Jesus said that the devil is a liar and a murderer, and said that false prophets would try to deceive even God's own people. John also told us to test the spirits. So if I receive a word from the Lord, there is absolutely no harm in saying "Lord please confirm this to me". i
If what I received from God was a prophecy for someone else, I would definitely say "please pray about this and talk and pray about it with more discerning Christians if you feel you need to. I believe Scripture teaches that prophecies should be tested and certain matters taken before the whole church.

Jesus told us what a sin against the Holy Spirit is - knowing that something is from God and, nevertheless, attributing it to Satan, Mark 3:22-28.
If Paul had blasphemed against the Spirit, he would not have been forgiven. Yet Paul healed, baptised, preached the Gospel and taught about God's love and forgiveness for all sinners, Roman 5:1-8; 2 Corinthians 5:14-21.
How and why could the Spirit give Paul the power to do this, if Paul was an unforgiven blasphemer?

That is interesting that you said you were one of his sheep and you know his voice, so then it would mean that those who are not his sheep wouldn't recognize his voive, right?

That may explain this:

Acts 9:5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you ..
[URL='http://biblehub.com/acts/22-8.htm']Acts 22:8 "'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. "'I am Jesus of Nazareth ...[/URL]
[URL='http://biblehub.com/acts/22-8.htm'][URL='http://biblehub.com/acts/26-15.htm']Acts 26:15 "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' " 'I am Jesus, whom [/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://biblehub.com/acts/22-8.htm'][URL='http://biblehub.com/acts/26-15.htm'][/URL][/URL]
One of the things that doesn't change in the three times his conversion is recorded.

Jesus: "But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'"

Paul: "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."

jerry kelso · Jul 18, 2016

Lulav said:
Does that really make sense? You seem to be saying that all the thousands of Jews that were in Jerusalem that day were all mistaken about what he was teaching? And only Paul is right?

Why did James emphasize to Paul that there were thousands upon thousands, perhaps 10's of thousands of Jewish believers in the Messiah who were 'zealous for the law' which means they all believed it was not done away with? Why did Paul have to prove he still walked uprightly, meaning kept the Law?

lulav,

Paul didn't have to prove he still walked uprightly or kept the law of Moses but he did say in 1 Corinthians 9:20: And unto the jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law:
Paul was a jew and he persevered with those jews as much as possible and when he said he would perform the ceremonial laws of purification with them he said the gentiles were not under this.
Besides a jew is still a jew culturally and they can live like a jew as long as they are not looking to it for salvation or violating any of the new covenant. Jerry kelso

How should we read Paul?

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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