How should we read Paul?

jerry kelso said:

righttruth,

1. Paul's invention on interpretation is your opinion and you have no scripture to back it up.

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Paul's letter was written to Corinthians. None of his letters can be claimed as scripture. It is done in the same way as Paul's self-claims. Nothing more.

2. I have stated scriptural fact that Jesus didn't teach the death, burial and resurrection in his earthly ministry under the Mosaic law and the KOH and the KOG message only to Israel. Jesus taught them to repent and that he would forgive their sins. Matthew 4:17 It was about to believe in him.

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Jesus came to show the way, the life and the truth, not to build theology of non-performance. Paul basically became an arm-chair Christian with shooting of letters from his confinement: a kind of an 'idle mind becoming devil's workshop.'

Matthew 16:22-23 was after the rejection of Israel Matthew 23:37-39 and then Jesus started to tell about his death and resurrection and Peter said he wasn't going to let anyone kill him and Jesus said, Get behind me Satan for you don't savor the things of God. Peter didn't have a clue Jesus was to be the actual sacrifice for redemption. If Peter didn't understand the death and resurrection of Christ at the end of Jesus ministry then he didn't know during his earthly ministry and in his teachings. Give me a scripture that Jesus directly told the jews to believe in his death and resurrection to be saved like the new covenant says. You say I am expressing man's thinking when I gave scripture. You won't even give a scripture to prove your point and that is absurd.

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Mere belief in death and resurrection will not lead to eternal life. It is not the beginning and end, but in between life that is appropriate.

4. The old covenant has nothing much about the church age and the details of the body of Christ and that was not the purpose. The new covenant was prophesied back in Genesis 3:15 but didn't come to full fruition until Calvary.
The old covenant shows that their would be a new covenant Jeremiah 31:31-32 and that Jesus would bring it about and it was offered to Israel for the Messiah would come through their line. Hebrews 9:15 said it was for the transgressions of the first covenant. It was also prophesied that he would die for the whole world and that Israel would reject him Isaiah 53:3 and not enter the covenants of their earthly calling Matthew 23:37-39. 1 Chronicles 28:7. The church was predestined from the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:5.

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Such a knowledge is not related to the life Jesus preached.

Foghorn said:

You reject Paul when he was commissioned by Jesus Himself?

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He went in his own way ignoring the directive of Jesus.

CONTINUATION OF EXCERPTS FROM "DID SAINT PAUL DEVIATE FROM THE GOSPEL?"

The Curse
Another prominent feature of his gospel, related to the
above postulate that all men are wicked without exception,
is the idea of the curse of the law. Writing to the Galatian
churches Paul asserted:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a
curse, for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not
abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do
them” (Deuteronomy 27:26, Galatians 3:10).
Then he goes on to say:
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law,
having become a curse for us – for it is written, “Cursed be
everyone who hangs on a tree” (Deuteronomy 21:23) – that
in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come upon
the Gentiles, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit
through faith (Galatians 3:13-14).
But when we turn to examine the passage cited from
Deuteronomy 27:26, we find a much different thought
– indeed, a thought that is the opposite of what Paul is
attempting to demonstrate. Rather than being under a curse
by relying on the works of the law, Moses is establishing only
that the curse comes from not doing the words of the law:
Cursed be he who does not confirm the words of this
law by doing them (Deuteronomy 26:27).

In fact, Deuteronomy 28:1 pronounces a blessing on all
who are careful to do all the commandments of the law. The
emphasis on the blessing is clear, for it is extended to cover
everyone in all circumstances:
Blessed shall you be in the city and blessed shall you be
in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your body and the
fruit of your ground and the fruit of your beasts, the increase
of your cattle, and the young of your flock. Blessed shall be
your basket and your kneading-trough. Blessed shall you
be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you
go out.
And on and on goes the text, defining the blessing on
those who keep the law, who live by it and do it. It is only
those who do not obey the voice of the Lord on whom the
curses fall (Deuteronomy. 28:15f ). In this text, the law is
not a curse within itself, nor are all that rely on the works of
the law under a curse. Rather, those who obey it are under
a manifold blessing!
Paul tampered with God’s word? How can this be, seeing
that whatever Paul wrote was and is God’s word! Did he
not himself make the claim that his words were really God’s
(or “the Lord’s, I Thessalonians 2:13, I Corinthians 14:37)?
Regarding those sharing this point of view, I can honestly
say that my conscience is free. I have done my best to strip
you of the church-applied shackles that bind your heart and
soul, but if you persist in keeping your head immersed in the
sand of Paul’s baseless theological speculations, what more
can I do?
I can do a great deal more. For one thing, I can provide
additional support by demonstrating that Paul was capable
of errors in logic. If his inspiration truly came from the Holy
Spirit, if he wrote the Word of God in recording his epistles,
he surely would not have written or said anything stupid –
would he?
The Cretans
The first is his self referential statement in the letter to
Titus. Titus had been left in Crete to attend to missionary
tasks, and Paul later wrote to him to more clearly define his
duties. Early in this letter, referring to the Cretans, he came
forth with this astonishing statement:
One of themselves, a prophet of their own said, “Cretans
are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is
true (Titus 1:12).
But, if Cretans are always liars, this statement by one
of them must be false. Paul says it is true. Paul has surely
fallen into a trap of his own making. If the illogic is not
obvious to you, perhaps it will help if I present it as follows,
keeping in mind that the Cretan whom Paul was quoting is
Epimenides.
1. Paul writes that Epimenides says that Cretans are
always liars.
2. Epimenides was a Cretan (a prophet of their own).
3. Therefore Epimenides always lies.
4. Paul says that what Epimenides said is true.
This is a pure conundrum. It is nonsense. Paul says
that Epimenides’ testimony is true, the very testimony that
says that Epimenides is a liar! Surely this kind of puny logic
must have a merely human origin, the mind of Paul.

Call No Man Father
I have pointed above to an incident in which Paul calls
God to witness to his truthfulness; he did this not once but
repeatedly, all in direct disobedience to the commandment
of Jesus: “Swear not at all.” Here are more examples of
disobedience:
Jesus said, Call no man your father on earth, for you
have one Father, who is in heaven (Matthew 23:9).
Paul committed, or taught others to commit, several
infractions of this commandment, not only continuing to
refer to the Patriarchs as “father”, but even establishing
himself as the father of his converts. The most specific
evidence of this comes from I Corinthians. I should tell you
that he does not actually title himself “father” in this verse,
but the language makes this the necessary interpretation.
He actually says,
“I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved
sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructers
in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I
have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Corinthians 4:14,
15).
He is teaching Timothy and all his disciples to call him
“Father,” contrary to the commandment of the Lord in
Matthew 23:9! He would have them disobey the Lord.
Then, in Romans 4:16, he speaks of Abraham as the
father of us all. He therefore calls Abraham, who was a man
on earth, his father, and encourages all other to do so!
You are not to be Called “Teacher”
Jesus commanded, from the same context as above, “But
you are not to be called rabbi (teacher), for you have one teacher
(didaskalos), and you are all brethren” (Matthew 23:8).

Ignoring this command completely, Paul wrote to the
Corinthians, defining the different offices in the church:”And
God has appointed in the church first apostles, second
prophets, third teachers (didaskalos)” (I Corinthians 12:28).
Then, in both letters to Timothy, he specified his own
appointment as preacher, apostle, and teacher (I Timothy
2:7, II Timothy 1:11). This is actually a very good indicator
that Paul authored these two letters, though the scholars
do not generally accept this. But is God going to appoint
anyone as teacher, when his spokesman, Jesus has expressly
forbidden that we should be called such?
Go Into Your Room and Shut Your Door
Jesus commanded, “But when you pray, go into your
room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in
secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you”
(Matthew 6:6).
Paul obviously ignored this command, as revealed in
his instruction to the Corinthian church concerning public
worship: “What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and
I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and
I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise, if you bless with
the spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say
the “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know
what you are saying?”
It is clear that Paul’s disciples engaged in public prayer
in their worship together, even as those whom Jesus called
“hypocrites” loved to stand praying in the synagogue. Of
course, we know of no church that pays any attention to
Jesus in this matter, but that should not surprise us. They
haven’t given him much attention in anything crucial to

their salvation. They are much distracted through listening
to Paul!
A Witness Needed!
If it is a lie, and you accuse me of lying, I will be forced
to respond with a denial because a lie cannot and will not
speak for itself. The things that motivated me to lie will
motivate me to deny my lie. Then, feeling the weakness of
my position, I look for something more! What more can I
do? I must call forth a witness, so that you have not only
my testimony, but also that of another. The scripture plainly
states that everything is established at the mouth of two or
three witnesses. You may have me pegged for a liar, but
perhaps you will believe someone else. But on whom can
I call on such short notice? To be effective, I must have a
witness now! Not only so, but my witness must be a person
of undisputed veracity, for it will not do to call on a reputed
liar. Whose testimony would you accept immediately
without question? Who? Who? Who?
Ah! There is only one person right for my task . . . God
in heaven! His veracity is beyond question and He carries
the extra advantage of never having been known to testify.
He would surely condemn me for a liar if He were to testify
but, since he never has, I am safe in calling upon him and
the very mention of his name may be persuasive.
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed
forever, knows that I do not lie. At Damascus, the governor
under King Aretas guarded the city of Damascus in order to
seize me, but I was let down in a basket through a window in
the wall, and escaped his hands (II Corinthians. 11:31-33).
[The author would like to add that Paul was mentioning
the name of the Father and Jesus to prove that he did not lie!

This is something similar in manner to taking vows or swearing
which was forbidden by Jesus in Matthew 5:33-37]

But when he who had set me apart before I was born,
and had called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal
his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the
Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go
up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I
went away into Arabia; and again I returned to Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas,
and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the
other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. In what I am
writing to you, before God, I do not lie! (Galatians 1:15-20)
For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am
telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the gentiles in
faith and truth (I Timothy 2:7).
I am speaking the truth in Christ; I am not lying; my
conscience bears witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great
sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish
that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the
sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race (Romans 9:1-3).
I count four times here, in the New Testament epistles,
that Paul denied that he was lying: to the Corinthians, the
Galatians, Timothy, and the Romans. Once, to the Romans,
he called the Holy Spirit to witness for him. Twice, to the
Corinthians and to the Galatians, he called God to witness
for him. Three times, to the Corinthians, Galatians, and to
Timothy, the denials were issued concerning his assertions
of his calling and apostleship.

-------TO BE CONTINUED

Foghorn said:

Since you seem confident of this, please show us where in scripture.

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Please read my reply no. 680 to begin with.

Foghorn said:

Again, please show this in Paul's writing.

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Please read my replies nos. 680 & 726

Wgw said:

Not true; all evidence suggests the Nasranis were mostly Syriac-speaking Kochin Jews.

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I don't think so. I have visited that place where a Hindu temple building used by local Brahmins became a church. And again notice apostle Thomas did not rely on Paul's self-claims with his misleading letters.

Strong in Him said:

Seriously??

When Jesus was casting out demons and the Pharisees said that he was doing it by the power of Satan, Jesus asked how Satan could drive out Satan and said that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. He then said that anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, Mark 3:20-30.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when you know that something is from God, and yet say it is from Satan. If the Pharisees had thought about it, and believed what Jesus said, they would have known that it is only possible to drive out demons by the power of God - they sometimes drove demons out too, Matthew 12:27. But they said that his miracle - driving out demons - was not from God but from Satan.

And you ask if it matters whether a miracle is attributed to God or the devil???

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Miracles need not be always driving out demons.

Lulav said:

That's what I was trying to say, it is 'evil' in ignorance.

What is evil is what is in adversity to God, the words ra' and Satan are related.

However we may do things that we believe God would sanction but if they are against His plan, His word, then we to in that moment become the adversary.

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That is all part of spiritual growth.

Foghorn said:

Jesus needed theological training?

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That is what Pauline people expect.

redleghunter said:

Jesus Christ was taught as any Jewish boy and young man would be taught. Same with His disciples.

Also don't forget Colossians 2:9.

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Not in the way Paul had.

redleghunter said:

You are taking the word of a man who does not embrace Christianity and still considers himself Hindu.

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The excerpts I have posted in reply nos. 680 & 726 are not his writings but of a seminary student seeking truth.

redleghunter said:

You missed the entire point.

Throughout the Bible, OT and NT the verbal claims were validated with the Power of God.

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Jesus warned of false prophets and anti-Christ people doing great things.

Strong in Him said:

No. But it matters greatly if a miracle is from God or a counterfeit one from the devil.
In Scripture, miracles always confirmed God's word. Jesus said, of you don't believe because of what I say, at least believe because of the miracles I do.
Miracles from God demonstrate his care, his power, his love and point to him.
Miracles from the devil are from the thief who came to kill and destroy. They may seem to be good, but they will lead away from God and ultimately destroy people.

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Yes, miracles could be from either source. Unbelieving generation look for them.

Strong in Him said:

Paul was neither. He certainly wasn't ANTI Christ.

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Yes, I agree he was a disciple and saint. But much of his thoughts were his own being not a part of the ministry of Jesus.

Go Into Your Room and Shut Your Door
Jesus commanded, “But when you pray, go into your
room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in
secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you”
(Matthew 6:6).
Paul obviously ignored this command, as revealed in
his instruction to the Corinthian church concerning public
worship: “What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and
I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and
I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise, if you bless with
the spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say
the “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know
what you are saying?”
It is clear that Paul’s disciples engaged in public prayer
in their worship together, even as those whom Jesus called
“hypocrites” loved to stand praying in the synagogue. Of
course, we know of no church that pays any attention to
Jesus in this matter, but that should not surprise us. They
haven’t given him much attention in anything crucial to
their salvation. They are much distracted through listening
to Paul!
A Witness Needed!
If it is a lie, and you accuse me of lying, I will be forced
to respond with a denial because a lie cannot and will not
speak for itself. The things that motivated me to lie will
motivate me to deny my lie. Then, feeling the weakness of
my position, I look for something more! What more can I
do? I must call forth a witness, so that you have not only
my testimony, but also that of another. The scripture plainly
states that everything is established at the mouth of two or
three witnesses. You may have me pegged for a liar, but
perhaps you will believe someone else. But on whom can
I call on such short notice? To be effective, I must have a
witness now! Not only so, but my witness must be a person
of undisputed veracity, for it will not do to call on a reputed
liar. Whose testimony would you accept immediately
without question? Who? Who? Who?
Ah! There is only one person right for my task . . . God
in heaven! His veracity is beyond question and He carries
the extra advantage of never having been known to testify.
He would surely condemn me for a liar if He were to testify
but, since he never has, I am safe in calling upon him and
the very mention of his name may be persuasive.
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed
forever, knows that I do not lie. At Damascus, the governor
under King Aretas guarded the city of Damascus in order to
seize me, but I was let down in a basket through a window in
the wall, and escaped his hands (II Corinthians. 11:31-33).
[The author would like to add that Paul was mentioning
the name of the Father and Jesus to prove that he did not lie!

This is something similar in manner to taking vows or swearing
which was forbidden by Jesus in Matthew 5:33-37]
But when he who had set me apart before I was born,
and had called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal
his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the
Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go
up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I
went away into Arabia; and again I returned to Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas,
and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the
other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. In what I am
writing to you, before God, I do not lie! (Galatians 1:15-20)
For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am
telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the gentiles in
faith and truth (I Timothy 2:7).
I am speaking the truth in Christ; I am not lying; my
conscience bears witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great
sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish
that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the
sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race (Romans 9:1-3).
I count four times here, in the New Testament epistles,
that Paul denied that he was lying: to the Corinthians, the
Galatians, Timothy, and the Romans. Once, to the Romans,
he called the Holy Spirit to witness for him. Twice, to the
Corinthians and to the Galatians, he called God to witness
for him. Three times, to the Corinthians, Galatians, and to
Timothy, the denials were issued concerning his assertions
of his calling and apostleship.

His Most Unfavorable Witness
Paul lied. But now I must tell you that Paul did have a
witness as to his integrity, and it was not a favorable witness.
This was Paul himself:
For though I am free from all men, I have made myself
a slave to all, that I might win the more. To the Jews I
became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law
I became as one under the law – though not being myself
under the law – that I might win those under the law. To
those outside the law I became as one outside the law – not
being without law toward God but under the law of Christ
– that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I
became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become
all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its
blessings. (I Corinthians. 9:19-25).
What a marvelous expression of total commitment
to winning souls! I once found this to be one of the most
inspiring and motivating passages in the Bible. It made me
just want to go out and win souls – to do anything or be
anything to accomplish results.
But look closer – he openly acknowledged a practice that
is utterly dishonest. To the Jews, he presented himself as a
Jew. But to those outside the law, the Greeks and others, he
presented himself as outside the law – as a Greek if we go by
his Greek name. He became all things to all men! Whatever
the occasion demands, that he is. Its begins more and more
to appear as though the Ebionites may have been correct in
their statements about Paul – that he was a Greek and never
a Pharisee Jew. By his own firm statement, he was a human
chameleon!

More Than an Apostle
Paul postured not only as an apostle, the greatest of the
apostles, but also as more than an apostle. In this he was
not prone to subtle concealment of his posturing, but was
most straightforward, apparently not realizing what he
was doing, but nevertheless revealing the self aggrandizing
person he really was. That he could present himself as
being the most lowly of apostles, then assert his superiority,
betrays hypocrisy that was usually masterfully concealed. In
every letter he was careful to affirm his apostolic calling and
its divine origin, once emphatically denying that it came
through men, but only through Christ by the will of God
(Galatians 1: 11, 12). In all except the Thessalonian letters,
the one to Philippi, and the personal letter to Philemon, he
included this apostolic affirmation in the first line of the
letters as I have stated above in the discussion of his office.
I list these first lines here once more because they contribute
to the conception of his self aggrandizement. Remember:
Paul wrote all these lines; there is no one other than him on
record as a witness to his high calling. The fact that now,
after two millennia, untold millions around the world honor
him as an apostle of the Lord only shows how effective a self
promoter he really was!
He engaged in self promotion at the beginning of most
of his letters:
Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but
through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him
from the dead—and all the brethren who are with me, To
the churches of Galatia: (Galatians 1:1,2).
Paul, called by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ
Jesus, and our brother Sosthenes, To the church of God
which is at Corinth . . . (I Corinthians 1:1,2).
88 Did Saint Paul Deviate from the Gospel?
Paul, and apostle to Jesus Christ by the will of God,
and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at
Corinth: . . . (II Corinthians 1:1).
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set
apart for the gospel of God which he promised beforehand
through his prophets in the holy scriptures . . . Jesus Christ
our Lord, through whom we have received grace and
apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake
of his name among all nations . . . To all God’s beloved in
Rome: . . . (Romans 1:1-6).
We must evaluate the character of Paul free from the
shackles that the churchmen have clamped upon us. Then
he comes through in his true colors. A truly meek and
humble man would never boast of his lowliness as Paul often
did; a truly meek and humble man would never boast of
his superiority, as Paul sometimes did. What others cannot
reveal about him because they were silenced long ago, he in
his own words reveals about himself.
Paul’s Great Failure
I define now the substance of Paul’s great failure to adequately
comprehend the Gospel. You note how he started by
saying that he had delivered to the Corinthians as of first
importance what he also received, that Christ died for our
sins according to the scriptures. His gospel therefore began
with the death of Jesus, and did not draw substantively on
anything prior to that. It did not draw on the life of Jesus,
or on the gospel that Jesus preached. It did not openly draw
on the utterances of Jesus. It was “in accordance with the
scriptures” but it was not in accordance with the words of
the Lord. If he were standing before me at this moment,
he might quickly direct my attention to his assertion that
this gospel, which is of first importance, is what “I also
received.” But this must be read in the light of his statement
in Galatians, . . . “the gospel, which was preached by me, is
not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from man nor was
I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ”
(Galatians 1:11,12).
Therefore it did not come from the man, Jesus, but
came only from the visions that appeared to Paul and that
he identified with the risen Christ. He therefore saw no
need of reliance on the utterances of Jesus of Nazareth, and
gave little heed to them. Did the risen Christ then repeat
the words of Jesus to Paul in his visions? No, for in that case,
Paul’s gospel would have conformed in every point to that
of Jesus. Would the risen Christ have delivered a different
message to Paul than he delivered to the disciples as Jesus of
Nazareth? No, for Jesus assured us that, though heaven and
earth pass away, his word will not pass away. It is therefore,
according to Jesus, the permanent and final word from God
to men.
I have been careful to note above, many times, that
Paul was familiar with the Jesus Tradition, the early record
of Jesus’ words and deeds. But he drew specifically on this
tradition very few times. Indeed, as near as I can tell, he
only once drew on words of the Lord that could be definitive
of his gospel, but he utilized it to instruct the church in
eating and observing the Lords Supper. Since Paul wrote
prior to the writing of the gospels, he must have derived
these words from the Jesus Tradition, but he claimed that
he received them from the Lord (I Corinthians 11:23). As
explained above, he meant to be understood as receiving it
from the risen Christ, and so in this case failed to credit
Jesus of Nazareth.”

Certainly, the truth seeker has nailed the speculative,
convenient and ‘ear tickling’ theories based on Paul’s epistles
for good! A great learned testimony for the truth and for the
glorification.......