How should we read Paul?

Righttruth · Mar 9, 2016

Righttruth said:
I had a strong Baptism fellowship in the beginning, followed by branch of Salvation Army, then Brethren --stopped attending any church for a while-- now a non-denominational church. I have attended Pentecostal based churches and Catholic's. I don't mind attending any church for a while to know the truth.

It should read Baptist fellowship

Righttruth · Mar 9, 2016

nomadictheist said:
I guess you don't know the meaning of the word "contradict..."

What meaning you apply to that word?

Righttruth · Mar 9, 2016

jerry kelso said:
righttruth,

1. Most people who are non-denominational are considered pentecostal and charismatic that believe in the gifts of the spirit. What kind of non-denominational are you?

Click to expand...

I believe in the gifts of the Spirit barring the gift of interpretation which was an invention of crafty Paul to shut the mouths of the people who were mocking the Pentecostal outpouring with gibberish talk. I attend a big non-denominational church, an off shoot of Methodists.

2. How would you even know that people have made a mountain out of a mole hill about Paul's 1 Corinthians irrelevantly when you can't even specify what they are making a mountain out of a mole hill about with proof from scripture.

Click to expand...

Proof is misbehavior, acrobatics and circus shows, show of animal instincts, speaking gibberish to let off steam once in a week inside a so called church building. Different interpreters give different interpretation for the same gibberish talk and no check for proof.

4. People who have no clue who is speaking, who is being spoken to, gradual revelation and how God dealt with men in different ages with different rules for men to live by and what the specific context says and how it lines up with the overall bible context is a tinkling cymbal who is pretending to have knowledge that they don't have. That is called self merit for knowledge puffs up. This is not true exegesis of scripture. Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

Paul wrote as he was growing 1 Corinthians to Corinthians. Not to you or me. Applying that universally now is irrational.

Wgw · Mar 9, 2016

Righttruth said:
Wicked generation seeks signs and wonders. Satan can do greater works. Only those who do the will of the Father will be saved.

And on this point, we must remember that St. Paul most certsinly did perform the will of the Father, of the Son, of the Holy Ghost. St. Paul himself warns us of Satanic delusion in Galatians 1:8, which is actuslly the key lynchpin for your doctrine.

Wgw · Mar 9, 2016

Righttruth said:
No sermon can surpass Sermon on the Mount. No pastor dares to preach that.

The Orthodox Church sings the Beatitudes at every divine liturgy.

Because if they preached and did not practice, they become first order hypocrites.

We are all hypocrites. The only man unblemished with hypocrisy is our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

They are happy with Paul's epistles.

With good reason; these are the oldest books in the New Testament and a vital part of the Gospel message.

Even there, they pick and choose verses or part of the verses. That keeps the congregation tickled.

The Eastern Orthodox Church reads the entire New Testament with the exception of Revelations, in church, each year. The Anglicans who use the older editions of the Book of Common Prayer (1662, 1928 American, 1962 Canadian), vs. the dreadful Novus Ordo influenced 1979 BCP, or Common Worship in the UK, read the entire New Testament twice in church in the course of a year. The Copts also read the entire NT, including revelations, every year. Without abbreviations, omissions, or eisegetical cherry picking.

Deluded people will be looking for temporal reliefs and benefits which Satan also offers abundantly.

I agree. It is for this reason that we must acceot the teachings of all of the Apostles of our Lord, including St. Paul, whose ministry was critical in spreading the Gospel to the gentiles.

Extraneous · Mar 9, 2016

Righttruth said:
Love is not the only dimensional attribute of God. There are three types of love. People want to concoct all the three and enjoy man-made cocktail.

Love i the greatest command, and it fulfills the law. Its not so easy to understand though, it requires following and meditating on the Lords commands, and growing through the spirit. Paul has helped me understand love because he taught me the value of suffering. It teaches us empathy for one thing. I am not all knowledgeable or mature, but i can see how love is the greatest. The cross is about Gods love, and Christ wants us to follow his example of love.

Extraneous · Mar 9, 2016

Righttruth said:
So signs and miracles cannot fetch eternal life.

All i know is that i don't follow miracles. I follow the word. Paul teaches that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word. Christ, when talking to Thomas (who doubted), said that those who have not seen but still believe are blessed, and to me that agrees with what paul teaches as well, when he says that faith comes by hearing. Christ is always saying. "he who has ears let him hear".

Extraneous · Mar 9, 2016

I see a pattern in this scripture. This pattern agrees with pauls teaching that faith comes by hearing, and it agrees with Christs words which so often tell us to "hear if we have ears". Jesus performed miracles so that people would believe he had power to forgive sin, that was the purpose of the miracle. See John 6. Jesus only heals the man after he is accused of blasphemy, he did the miracle to prove a point.

See also John 20. Thomas doubted and wouldn't believe unless he seen with his own eyes. The scripture then says that those who don't see but hear are blessed. IT also says that those things were written, so that we might believe that we have eternal life. The emphasis is again on hearing the word, but not seeing miracles with natural eyes. Look at the Lords statement in John 4 which says "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.”. Look what Christ says about an adulterous generation needing to see signs and wonders.

Look at pauls words when he says that Jews seek sings and Greeks seek wisdom but Christ is both wisdom and power for those who believe. All of this teaches me that i don't need to see a miracle, nor do i need to be healed either. My healing is in heaven. Paul teaches us to look at the things that are not seen rather than the things that are seen. Hes talking about looking toward heaven, waiting for our resurrection, but hes not talking about looking for miracles on earth. Faith comes by hearing. Blessed our your ears for they hear. Let him who has ears hear.

John 20:24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”

So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

That You May Believe
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

John 4:46 So Jesus came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and implored Him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.”

49 The nobleman said to Him, “Sir, come down before my child dies!”

50 Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your son lives.” So the man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him and told him, saying, “Your son lives!”

52 Then he inquired of them the hour when he got better. And they said to him, “Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.” 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives.” And he himself believed, and his whole household.

54 This again is the second sign Jesus did when He had come out of Judea into Galilee.

Matthew 9 So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. 2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”

4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 7 And he arose and departed to his house.

Extraneous · Mar 9, 2016

I neat Mathew 9, not John 6.

Righttruth · Mar 10, 2016

Extraneous said:
Paul teaches that as well. 1 Corinthians 13

If so, it can be accepted.

Righttruth · Mar 10, 2016

jerry kelso said:
righttruth,

1. Most people who are non-denominational are considered pentecostal and charismatic that believe in the gifts of the spirit. What kind of non-denominational are you?

I believe in the gifts of the Spirit barring the gift of interpretation which was an invention of crafty Paul to shut the mouths of the people who were mocking the Pentecostal outpouring with gibberish talk. I attend a big non-denominational church, an off shoot of Methodists.

2. How would you even know that people have made a mountain out of a mole hill about Paul's 1 Corinthians irrelevantly when you can't even specify what they are making a mountain out of a mole hill about with proof from scripture.

Proof is misbehavior, acrobatics and circus shows, show of animal instincts, speaking gibberish to let off steam once in a week inside a so called church building. Different interpreters give different interpretation for the same gibberish talk and no check for proof.

[/quote]4. People who have no clue who is speaking, who is being spoken to, gradual revelation and how God dealt with men in different ages with different rules for men to live by and what the specific context says and how it lines up with the overall bible context is a tinkling cymbal who is pretending to have knowledge that they don't have. That is called self merit for knowledge puffs up. This is not true exegesis of scripture. Jerry Kelso[/quote]

Paul wrote as he was growing 1 Corinthians to Corinthians. Not to you or me. Applying that universally now is irrational.

Reply posting again since edit feature was not available

Righttruth · Mar 10, 2016

jerry kelso said:
righttruth,

1. I have scriptural proof of Paul knowing Judaism and what Jesus taught because he taught the law of Moses and even you said this. You are contradicting and because you don't have truth of scripture to back up your claim that Paul didn't know all Jesus taught teters on being a pedifogger.

Perfect knowledge is not possible for anybody now. You are contradicting what Paul admitted:
1 Corinthians 13
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

2. Hebrews 8:6-7 says the new covenant replaced the old covenant of which Jesus taught so we do not fulfill the spirit of the law according to the Mosaic ethic. This is why the new covenant is built on better promises and the power of the finished work of Christ and not self effort because of the weakness of the commandment of Moses of which the law of sin and death took advantage of Moses law and made them live to the frailty of man in sin. Read Romans 7. Romans 8, the law of the Spirit did away with the law of sin and death which was in Romans 7 who took advantage of the law that was holy and good and made them live to the frailty of man. Again you have no scriptural proof for your position or for a rebuttal.

That is how Paul degraded the old covenant with his rhetoric. Can you dishonor your parents and kill another person claiming freedom through the new covenant? The spirit of the Law demands not even bad thinking about those sinful deeds.

3. The gospel is the death and the resurrection is how we are translated in the kingdom of his dear son. You once again wasted time in saying it would have been a waste of time if Jesus would have directly preached his death and resurrection and not even a logical answer. You spin terribly and this is a no spin zone. Do you even know what the KOH is?

Do you know the responsibilities and limitations of believers in Christ?

4. He established the church with 12 apostles after the resurrection under the new testament in his blood, but they were disciples under the Mosaic law under the law dispensation which was a different message from the new covenant and was before the cross. Again you are mixed up with the time factor and the covenants.

No, they were Jews before, but transformed to disciples by answering the call of Jesus.

5. The old covenant was in types and shadows and had a spiritual meaning and application in a specific theocracy with Israel and not the church. Hebrews 6:1 talks about leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ which was the Mosaic law and go onto perfection which was the new covenant for the purpose of Hebrews was to show the differences of the old covenant and the new covenant.

Yes, differences are there. But doesn't mean the OT was rubbish or bad; it was only incomplete. Do you think God gave bad things to start with?

You can't possibly understand the significance of the spiritual aspect of the new covenant and it's better promises if you don't understand the totality of the message given in the teachings of Jesus concerning the old covenant. You have not shown any understanding of the context of Jesus teachings under the Mosaic law. Jerry Kelso

Jesus words can never understood through Paul.

Righttruth · Mar 10, 2016

jerry kelso said:
righttruth,

1. No sermon can surpass the Sermon on the Mount. No pastor dares to preach that because they would become hypocrites. This shows you are into works and you have no clue of what Jesus meant in the Sermon on the Mount. Why? because you are thinking with a gentile mind and have no comprehension of Jewish history concerning the KOH and the KOG message according to the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.
This has nothing to do with being happy with Paul's epistles.
You don't even seem to pick or choose verses at all but instead choosing to espouse your opinions.

2. The Sermon on the Mount, Nicodemus and being born again and the Samaritan woman who said he told me everything I did is all connected to his Messiahship and it is also connected to the law keepers of the old covenant nation and there covenants specifically to Abraham and David that were not specific to the church age.

3. Deluded people don't have right answers and skate the truth. You talk about context but you won't show any which shows no foundation of understanding.
One can't keep making general opinions and show no context. One can't say just enough to leave the total picture in the grey so one doesn't have to show the truth without being exposed for not knowing the truth eventually.

6. If Paul would have deviated to the extreme and just made opinions that didn't coincide with the gospel Peter and the other apostles would have let him know and would have denounced him for claiming to be an apostle or anyone credible.
Show how you can harmonize Jesus teaching of Moses law with the new covenant. They are the opposite end of the polars. You are going to have do better for you are sinking deeper and deeper in the quicksand of unscriptural foundation. Jerry kelso

Building castles in the air ably propped by Paul's speculations!

Righttruth · Mar 10, 2016

redleghunter said:
Substantiate your assertion.

Please do some research on old manuscripts.

Righttruth · Mar 10, 2016

redleghunter said:
Unsubstantiated assertion. Need some evidence.

1 Corinthians 1
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

Paul is throwing the Great Commission to an open field.

Righttruth · Mar 10, 2016

redleghunter said:
What other epistles and which Words of Jesus Christ?

No one knows because you pick and choose.

Excluding all Paul's epistles--appendix part that has led to appendicitis.

Righttruth · Mar 10, 2016

civilwarbuff said:
Cronies....are we talking about the "underworld" here.....maybe even the mafia....

Don't you know such things have become part and parcel of Christendom (Catholics and Protestants)?

Extraneous · Mar 10, 2016

I use to struggle with many things Paul said. I always knew them to be true, but just couldn't understand them, just as many things that Christ said were also hard to understand. I still dont understand everything they say, but one thing i do know is that they are preaching the same Gospel and i have seen wonderful things in their words, whivh strengthens my faith. Faith comes by hearing. Paul was not a Pentecostal, and i think Pentecostals dont understand anything that either Christ or Paul says. I think they they need to clean out their ears so they can hear better.

I dont mean to sound abrasive, but i cant stand to see them misinterpret Pauls words and even the Lords as well. I have heard on more than one occasion by WOF folks that the sermon on the mount cant be followed but i have seen that this sermon and pauls words are in agreement, and they agree with the Church of Acts 4 as well. WOF is wrong in rejecting it as they do, and wrong in how they mishandle Pauls words and a lot of Scripture. Paul has helped me follow the Lord, and i love his words because they help me follow the Lords words better. Anyway, goodnight.

Look at this comparison.

1 Co 13:13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Mathew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Righttruth · Mar 10, 2016

redleghunter said:
Are you implying the 12 and Paul performed the works of Satan?

I would be very careful.

By their fruits we know them. Satan presence and influence are expected everywhere. He was there even in God's garden of Eden. Wheat and tare grow together. We need the help of the Holy Spirit to distinguish between the two.

Righttruth · Mar 10, 2016

redleghunter said:
Are you implying the 12 and Paul performed the works of Satan?

I would be very careful.

Peter was rebutted and given the title of Satan for proposing what an intimate and well wisher does to his teacher.

How should we read Paul?

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