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I would contend that many Christians are using the wrong criteria in choosing their candidate. We're not voting for a pastor or elder or even a Christian. We're electing someone to carry out God's purposes for government laid out in Romans 13 and elsewhere.
Will the candidate you're supporting minister to its citizens by punishing evil doers? Will your candidate be good at this? Or will he be passive and incompetent?
If you study the origins of government you find out, it pre-exists Abraham. It's a gentile institution for all peoples. There should be no faith litmus test at all.
For me, soteriological stances are the last place I'd look in making my choice. Jimmy Carter was a born-again Christian and was a disaster at carrying out God's purposes for government. And I don't know if Reagan was a Christian, but he was excellent at carrying out God's purposes. He ministered to the nation by showing strength.
Here's an article to support my thesis.
How Should Christians Vote? A Question Of Origins?
So far I'm a Trump supporter. He seems to meet every requirement I'm looking for. I could be wrong, but wanted to disclose my leanings.
But I think most Christians are looking at the wrong criteria. When you appoint a doctor, or lawyer, or mechanic do you check his theology? Do you check his marriage record? Or do you look at their competence? If you don't pick the most qualified, you're certainly not glorifying God, nor protecting your family. Same is true in appointing a governing authority. If you just fall into identity politics or pick the guy you think is most decent (like Max Lucado recommends), you're simply ignoring what God has said about the purposes of government. You're making it about your own criteria, rather than God's.
It has to be about policy. Policy expresses the candidate's purposes. Only then can we compare his purposes with God's purposes. Barack Obama is believed my many to be a "decent" man. Lucado has never criticized him. But does he have decent policies?
Just a challenge. Read the article linked above, if possible, before posting.
I believe God has removed His protection and blessings from our country. Look for calamity to increase.
I believe that we in for a period of course correction. God did this with His people throughout the Old Testament, and I don't see any reason to believe that He will not continue to do the same when the church loses its focus. I pray that the Church is able to embrace this and that we will get things right in short order.
America is not God's nation nor are Americans per se God's people.
The USA is nothing but a place--like Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, or Bithynia, places once known but now forgotten-- where some of us are currently deployed. While here, we have a mission of limited duration: To "declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light." When we're done, we're going home.
My question to you would be, is the US God's nation or is His nation made up of His people? I would say God's nation is His people, not secular nations and governments.Reagan was a Lone Ranger Christian. He did not attend church, did not give to a church, he accepted instructions from his wife who consulted an astrologer. Yep he carried out Gods purposes. But God will have His purposes attended to by whom ever He so desires. Even Jimmy Carter carried out gods purposes. President Obama God has allowed to him to give the people just what they are asking for and want. That being said expect calamity to increase more and more. Yes God has permitted our Highest Court to make killing babies legal. God has permitted the Highest Court to say homosexuality unions to be called equal to a man and a woman union called marriage. God has said marriage is only between a man and a woman. But our Highest Court has stated the Laws of God will not rule our country.
I believe God has removed His protection and blessings from our country. Look for calamity to increase.
I couldn't disagree with you more. Integrity has to be THE most important characteristic that believers are looking for in ANY leader, whether pastor, employer, mayor, or President. I'd encourage you to take some time to read through the Historical books of the Old Testament, especially 1 and 2 Kings. There God tells us what makes for a good leader. And moral uprightness is the defining factor. Now being a secular republic, I don't think it's necessarily reasonable to expect that our leader will fit the same mold as the good kings in Jerusalem. But, we cannot compromise moral integrity for personality or even political positions.
As for your examples, I think you would be foolish to hire a competent doctor, lawyer, or mechanic who was not trustworthy. I would much rather hire a mediocre member of any of these professions who I can trust than an excellent one who I cannot trust.
As for Trump, I think your own post makes clear that he does fit the criteria. You seem to be justifying your choice to vote for the most morally bankrupt candidate available (albeit HRC is a close second), rather than arguing that he isn't so. That should cause you to question your choice.
I agree, but, for reasons set out in a longer post above, I believe that while God does not want chaos, He would prefer a government that follows "Kingdom of God" principles (i.e. rejection of the use of force) to one that uses the sword. But, granted, one that uses the sword is better than anarchy.
So what did the our fellow Christian countrymen in Nigeria, North Korea, China, and Pakistan do that was so wrong to have earned "God's wrath" that their life sucks so much more than that of Christians in America?
But in a way, our fellow countrymen in North Korea have been victorious. Kim Jong Un appears to have realized that after more than two generations of brutal oppression that has failed to wipe them out, it's a better strategy to co-opt them with a North Korean Orthodox Church that he can monitor and control.
A businessman with integrity leaves his creditors and investors high and dry after declaring bankruptcy 4 times?What I'm arguing is that Trump is not qualified to be a Pastor, and doesn't have great theology. But I think he has great integrity as a businessman.
He's roundly considered the LEAST charitable "billionaire". From 1990-2009...he gave 3.7 MILLION (other people have given MORE money to his OWN charities than him).Look at his philanthropic giving over the years.
I looked at it. It's disappointing. There are grass roots groups who contribute MORE to vets in a day than Trump has in 4 years. Pray, HOW is that supposed to impress me?Look at his dedication to vets.
I hope you're not talking about in America. Because as a Christian outside of America, I find that highly offensive.Look at his dedication to stoping Christian persecution.
Why would I base MY opinion on the guy being a good president because his ex wife and kids endorse him? They want their money money too. You think that if ANY of them withdrew Trump support that they would EVER see money from him again? Pffffft.Look at this kids and even his ex wife who is endorsing him.
Are you serious? I mean, I don't even know what his shortcomings are.These are good things that need to be weighed against his shortcomings.
Yes! I've seen in a great quote: "Trump is the personification of an internet comment message board."Trump is by no means a soft spoken guy, and that offends some. When he's hit, he hits back. But that's no different than what goes on in these forums. I think much if it is refreshing and genuine.
Of COURSe you see him as trustworthy. You see him as trustworthy because 1) He says he's trustworthy; 2) He's a very good manipulator 3)He hasn't had to prove himself..in any MEANINGFUL way yet (even in the less meaningful way, I don't think he does a good job).But I do see Trump as trustworthy, because I believe he has the guts to say exactly what he believes. Most politicians lie about what they really believe.
What I'm arguing is that Trump is not qualified to be a Pastor, and doesn't have great theology. But I think he has great integrity as a businessman.
Look at his philanthropic giving over the years.
Look at his dedication to vets.
Look at his dedication to stoping Christian persecution.
Look at this kids and even his ex wife who is endorsing him.
These are all decent attributes. These are good things that need to be weighed against his shortcomings.
Trump is by no means a soft spoken guy, and that offends some. When he's hit, he hits back. But that's no different than what goes on in these forums. I think much if it is refreshing and genuine.
But I do see Trump as trustworthy, because I believe he has the guts to say exactly what he believes. Most politicians lie about what they really believe.
I would contend that many Christians are using the wrong criteria in choosing their candidate. We're not voting for a pastor or elder or even a Christian. We're electing someone to carry out God's purposes for government laid out in Romans 13 and elsewhere.
The thing is we got to remember we are not the only people in this country. There are other faiths living here with us. To only elect someone cause they say they are a Christian can cost us deeply.
Will the candidate you're supporting minister to its citizens by punishing evil doers? Will your candidate be good at this? Or will he be passive and incompetent?
Will I am for Sanders. I think he will be the best thing for our country.
If you study the origins of government you find out, it pre-exists Abraham. It's a gentile institution for all peoples. There should be no faith litmus test at all.
For me, soteriological stances are the last place I'd look in making my choice. Jimmy Carter was a born-again Christian and was a disaster at carrying out God's purposes for government. And I don't know if Reagan was a Christian, but he was excellent at carrying out God's purposes. He ministered to the nation by showing strength.
Here's an article to support my thesis.
How Should Christians Vote? A Question Of Origins?
So far I'm a Trump supporter. He seems to meet every requirement I'm looking for. I could be wrong, but wanted to disclose my leanings.
But I think most Christians are looking at the wrong criteria. When you appoint a doctor, or lawyer, or mechanic do you check his theology? Do you check his marriage record? Or do you look at their competence? If you don't pick the most qualified, you're certainly not glorifying God, nor protecting your family. Same is true in appointing a governing authority. If you just fall into identity politics or pick the guy you think is most decent (like Max Lucado recommends), you're simply ignoring what God has said about the purposes of government. You're making it about your own criteria, rather than God's.
It has to be about policy. Policy expresses the candidate's purposes. Only then can we compare his purposes with God's purposes. Barack Obama is believed my many to be a "decent" man. Lucado has never criticized him. But does he have decent policies?
Just a challenge. Read the article linked above, if possible, before posting.
Trump will lead us into the end of the world. I know some believers are for him but this house hold is not.
I fear for us if he gets into powerI don't think he's going to lead us to the end of the world. But, I think that God may use him (much as he used Nebuchadnezzar, though I pray not nearly as harshly) to show us how far we have drifted from Him. If Trump is elected, and when we realize that it was the evangelical church who elected him, I am hoping that this will wake us up to how far we, as the church (particularly evangelicals) have drifted.
Me too, but take heart that yhe King is still in control. Jeremiah 29:11.
I think Sanders is a decent guy, but I'd have a hard time getting behind a candidate who is openly Socialist and who supports abortion "rights". That said, I would vote for Sanders if he were the only viable alternative to Trump.I agree. I still vote for Sanders though. I still think he can do good for us.
I think Sanders is a decent guy, but I'd have a hard time getting behind a candidate who is openly Socialist and who supports abortion "rights". That said, I would vote for Sanders if he were the only viable alternative to Trump.
All I can say when it comes to topics like abortion I am for the woman's right to decided what to do with her body.
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