How salvation is organized

[Hammster]

The law on the hearts of the unsaved? Depends on their conscience. If they don't know God, they can't know to love Him.

So the commandment only pertains to those who know God?

 

[JustAsIam77]

Here's a first-cut at --

The Biblical Order of Salvation:

Election (Ep 1:4, Ep 1:11)
Predestination (Rom 8:30)
Inner Call (Rom 8:30)
New Birth (1 John 5:1; Rom 10:10 & Rom 2:29, 2 Th 2:13, Pp 1:29)
Faith & Repentance (Rom 10:10)
Justification (Rom 8:30, Rom 5:1)
Indwelling (Gal 3:2, Rom 8:9)
Adoption (Rom 8:15)
(Christian Walk (Ep 2:10, Rom 8:11))
Resurrection (Rom 5:9)
Glorification (Rom 8:30)

Discuss.

Well done, wouldn't election coincide with predestination.

 

[themuzicman]

The principle is universal , why else do you think Cain's offering and Cain himself was rejected ?

The principle isn't universal. The principle is applied to those who believe only.

Do you know there is only one other group of Christians who say this , they are Hyper Calvinists!

Even a blind pig finds a truffle now and then.

I don't think so .

without faith it's impossible to please God period .

Correct, there is no getting into heaven without faith.

You are sure making it harder for a Christian than an unbeliever , hardly in keeping with "come to me my burden is light " ...... I say God has condemned all as sinners , even their good -works are defiled .

Really? Do I have to untwist ANOTHER of your proof texts?

Jesus is talking to JEWS who labor under 613 COMMANDMENTS from the Old Covenant Law. Jesus is telling them that they don't have to labor under them if they come to Him.

And thanks for your admission that unbelievers do good works. Glad to see you see the light.

 

[themuzicman]

So the commandment only pertains to those who know God?

Actually, it is those who have been taught the law. Those who have not been taught are judged by the actions they do by nature which are of the law, because (in effect) their conscience is their law because they do know good and evil.

 

[Hammster]

Actually, it is those who have been taught the law. Those who have not been taught are judged by the actions they do by nature which are of the law, because (in effect) their conscience is their law because they do know good and evil.

Okay, so after they know the law then everything is tainted with sin?

 

[cygnusx1]

The principle isn't universal. The principle is applied to those who believe only.



Even a blind pig finds a truffle now and then.



Correct, there is no getting into heaven without faith.



Really? Do I have to untwist ANOTHER of your proof texts?

Jesus is talking to JEWS who labor under 613 COMMANDMENTS from the Old Covenant Law. Jesus is telling them that they don't have to labor under them if they come to Him.

And thanks for your admission that unbelievers do good works. Glad to see you see the light.

I didn't say unbelievers don't do "good works" , what of it >

even a blind pig finds a truffle once in a while

 

[themuzicman]

Okay, so after they know the law then everything is tainted with sin?

One's standing before God apart from Christ is always tainted with sin, having heard the law or not. That's the point of Rom 2:14-16.

It is simply unnecessary (and extra-biblical) to say that each action is tainted with sin. Sometimes, unbelievers do by nature the requirements of the law. Again, see Rom 2:14. These individual actions aren't sin. They won't merit salvation, but they aren't sin, either.

 

[cygnusx1]

One's standing before God apart from Christ is always tainted with sin, having heard the law or not. That's the point of Rom 2:14-16.

It is simply unnecessary (and extra-biblical) to say that each action is tainted with sin. Sometimes, unbelievers do by nature the requirements of the law. Again, see Rom 2:14. These individual actions aren't sin. They won't merit salvation, but they aren't sin, either.

and so these actions are acceptable to God ? a yes or a no would be good here .

 

[themuzicman]

and so these actions are acceptable to God ? a yes or a no would be good here .

Acceptable to God as what? As moral? As meeting the requirements of the law? Yes. They have to be in order for their actions we do not meet those requirements to be held against them.

 

[cygnusx1]

Acceptable to God as what? As moral? As meeting the requirements of the law? Yes. They have to be in order for their actions we do not meet those requirements to be held against them.

stunning answer !!!

shocking !!!!

I need to sit down and take that answer in , I feel faint ...

 

[bling]

That freedom comes after regeneration and faith. Once we are regenerated we believe and by that belief accept, repent, and follow.

If you cannot "reject" because you have been previously regenerated than how are you truly accepting?
Is that not the same as God forcing you to accept because He now made you to accept and thus it is really God doing the accepting (since he had the choice) and not you?

 

[bling]

Calvinism never teaches God made you accept the free gift

If you do not accept something (like your good looks), but just have it did you really accept it?

If God somehow changes your nature so you will (have to) accept His gift while others cannot accept His gift because He has not changed them, are you making the choice to accept or reject or has God made that choice for you?

 

[bling]

Bling, please show us in Scripture where unregenerate men can make a morally good choice.

The prodigal son was "dead" by Jesus' definition, so I would say the prodigal son in the pigsty was unregenerated (dead).

 

[themuzicman]

The prodigal son was "dead" by Jesus' definition, so I would say the prodigal son in the pigsty was unregenerated (dead).

*cough* Rom 2:14-16 *cough*

 

[cygnusx1]

Acceptable to God as what? As moral? As meeting the requirements of the law? Yes.

So how much can man do to obey all the requirements ? I mean , given your view implies non-regenerate men can please God by the things that they do , so how much of this stuff (good works by sinners) can men do ? and just how much can men (by doing stuff) please God ?

They have to be in order for their actions we do not meet those requirements to be held against them.

iether this is bad English or I am not bright enough to understand what you are saying , I read it a few times , still haven't got a clue.

 

[themuzicman]

So how much can man do to obey all the requirements ? I mean , given your view implies non-regenerate men can please God by the things that they do , so how much of this stuff (good works by sinners) can men do ? and just how much can men (by doing stuff) please God ?

All men, by nature, do moral acts. (Rom 2:14-16). However, all men sin (Rom 3:23). No unregenerate man can do enough to earn salvation. One sin is sufficient for condemnation.

So, while it may please God that the unregenerate do moral acts, it is insufficient to stand righteous before Him.

iether this is bad English or I am not bright enough to understand what you are saying , I read it a few times , still haven't got a clue.

Unregenerate moral actions are indications of knowledge of the law of their conscience. It is by these moral actions, which indicate knowledge of the law, that their immoral actions are judged, and they are condemned.

 

[cygnusx1]

All men, by nature, do moral acts. (Rom 2:14-16). However, all men sin (Rom 3:23). No unregenerate man can do enough to earn salvation. One sin is sufficient for condemnation.

So, while it may please God that the unregenerate do moral acts, it is insufficient to stand righteous before Him.

why ?

before you answer , why doesn't God just look at the GOOD WORKS not the sins ?

You know if men can do good works that are acceptable to God , then it shouldn't be too difficult for them to TOTALLY please God .... hey ?

Unregenerate moral actions are indications of knowledge of the law of their conscience. It is by these moral actions, which indicate knowledge of the law, that their immoral actions are judged, and they are condemned.

why ?

I don't get why a man who does works accptable to God would be excluded just because of FEW unacceptable works ... I don't condemn my children for a few mistakes , especially when they are doing stuff which is praisworthy .

neither do I tell them you have to start all over again by being born a second time .... if they do a few mistakes (sins) I say "just improve" , and "don't let it happen again" ... I don't need to start all over again by declaring them in need of salvation by me !

If men can do stuff acceptable to God , then logically it must be that they could always do stuff acceptable to God and would not need a saviour , their good works would cover it !

In any case , I stand with the Reformers and others (taking their understanding from scripture) who decare all man's works are corrupted by sin , and that none of man's works are pleasing or acceptable to God , for every single work of man is either for the Glory Of God and is done BY FAITH or it is not .

According to scripture faith alone is able to make us acceptable to God and "good works" are just like filthy rags to HIM who sees all things clearly , who sees the very motives and desires of the heart > Jesus certainly preached against the fallacy of outwardly keeping God's Law as a certain wide road to destruction , Christ Himself directly undermined popular thinking about man and "good- works" ... "Good master " says one , Christ replies "Only God is good" ......

the Gospel of Matthew (5) tells us about man's goodness and thinking he is pleasing God by outwardly Law keeping ..... it's condemned because man is a condemned creature in need of TOTAL regeneration JUSTIFICATION and Salvation.

 

[Hammster]

Unregenerate moral actions are indications of knowledge of the law of their conscience. It is by these moral actions, which indicate knowledge of the law, that their immoral actions are judged, and they are condemned.

So now all men do have knowledge of the law? Does that include the greatest commandment? Maybe you should just spell it all out. My head is spinning.

 

[cygnusx1]

The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)



"Works performed by unregenerate men, although they may in essence be things which God commands, and they may be good and beneficial both to themselves and others, yet because they do not proceed from a heart purified by faith, and are not done in a right manner according to the Word, and because it is not their underlying purpose to bring glory to God, therefore they are sinful, and cannot please God, nor can they make a man fit to receive grace from God. And yet, for unregenerate men to neglect such works is even more sinful and displeasing to God."


The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

 

[Hammster]

The prodigal son was "dead" by Jesus' definition, so I would say the prodigal son in the pigsty was unregenerated (dead).

Nothing like taking a parable out of context.