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How revelant is the Reformation for us today?

sdowney717

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You said,
(9)The Bible is manifestly NOT
(a) A Theology Textbook

2 Timothy 3:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.


So most can hopefully see your way off base and wrong. Amazing how boldly arrogant people are in attempts to nullifying the scripture.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Which Catholic Church are you referring to?
 
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Mountainmike

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If you are going back - then go back to the early church surely.
Read such as ignatius, iraneus, justin martyr etc some of whom knew and were taught by apostles.
And you see how far the reformation strayed!
 
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dms1972

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No but I have got that impression once or twice with certain people.
 
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dms1972

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On the subject of Sola Scripture, theologian Donald Bloesch has some perceptive comments. Some Protestant Fundamentalist churches think they have the same view of authority as the Reformers - the Bible alone, but in fact they don't. Bloesch writes: "For the church of the Reformation the supreme authority is the Word and the Spirit, the Bible illumined by the Spirit in the context of the worshipping community of faith."
 
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BNR32FAN

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If you are going back - then go back to the early church surely.
Read such as ignatius, iraneus, justin martyr etc some of whom knew and were taught by apostles.
And you see how far the reformation strayed!

I think perhaps the only church that hasn’t strayed is the Orthodox Church.
 
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Mountainmike

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I think perhaps the only church that hasn’t strayed is the Orthodox Church.
They certainly have strayed - from the church at Rome, and primacy of Rome. Which is All there and evident in early fathers and councils.
 
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BNR32FAN

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They certainly have strayed - from the church at Rome, and primacy of Rome. Which is All there and evident in early fathers and councils.

Actually I think it’s the other way around. It was the Roman church that started making changes not the Orthodox Church. The filioque, priest celibacy, purgatory, the inquisitions are just a few examples. And of course papal supremacy.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Very relevant since most of the reforms are now embraced by the Roman Church than the Protestant.
I don't believe this is truth to be embraced.

Rather test everything, no matter who says it (even if an Apostle or an angel of light!) ....
as Yahweh's Word says.
If it is not in perfect harmony with all Scripture, and especially with the salvation in Jesus once for all delivered by Yahweh (God) ,
then do not accept something nor believe it. (most things published today, worldwide, by far, are false)
 
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Mountainmike

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Not so, but here is not the place to argue it.
And central to all that - at one time the eastern bishops who later split away, to become what is now the mixture ( not one separate church) of disparate autonomous and autocephalous churches that Now live under the banner "orthodox" all certainly did believe and profess the primacy of Rome, they said so in council. No surprises there... iraneus says so clearly, and many fathers since.

That is the fascinating thing of course:

You point out the clear meaning to protestants held by first century Jews of " bind and loose" ( i.e. Give definitive judgement on law and doctrine) Which is a power unarguably given separately to Peter alone, and the other disciples jointly, in 2 separate places in scripture (indeed pointbout all Christians rely on " bind and loose" for the inspiration of council decisions, without which there is no canon or creed, or judgement on important heresies ) and you say to Protestants: as I have many times before:

" then what do those verses mean to you if not the obvious - ? since its clear that is what it meant to first century Jews" ...

the Protestants then always go silent!! They have no alternative, there is no alternative. They just don't want it to mean the Catholic meaning of Peter given that power " to bind and loose," Ditto such as the power to " retain sins" etc.

As for Filioque - it is such an arcane concept, and so far beyond the power of man to know the fullness of God, so argue it either way, does anyone really care?
Jesus clearly sends the spirit to the disciples after ascension. That surely is good enough to make the argument against it a waste of time, even though it does not necessarily support it depending on your chosen meaning of " proceed", so now it is down on semantics of words.

And that is aproblem ever since .. many of the reformation arguments about salvation and faith arise from differences in assumed meanings of words





Actually I think it’s the other way around. It was the Roman church that started making changes not the Orthodox Church. The filioque, priest celibacy, purgatory, the inquisitions are just a few examples. And of course papal supremacy.
 
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Why stop at the Reformation? We can go down the slippery slope until we hear the voice of John Lennon singing "Imagine". The Reformation is as relevant today as ever, the Five Solas are essential to Protestant Christianity. The moral of this story is, truth is timeless and has its origin in God. To say the Reformation is no longer relevant, is to say the truths the Reformers championed are no longer relevant, and this method can only lead to disaster. Some wise person once wrote, "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it". If you think moderns have come so far along intellectually and spiritually, try reading the Puritans. I think humanity as a whole is devolving.
 
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BNR32FAN

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There are many misconceptions about the authority of the bishop of Rome. Your reference to Ignatius confirming the bishop of Rome’s authority I’m assuming is his statement from Adversus Haereses where he said do nothing without the bishop of Rome. This is hardly evidence of papal primacy regarding authority because the councils would not convene without all of the 5 bishops of the pentarchy present as we can clearly see in the council of Ephesus. As for the excommunication during the East West schism Rome stood completely alone because all of the other bishops of the pentarchy excommunicated Rome. Those being the bishops of Constantinople, Antioch, and Alexandria and Jerusalem. So either the Rome excommunicated the entire church or the entire church excommunicated Rome. So we have two groups of people in the same church. Those who want to make changes (Rome) and those who want to keep things the way they’ve always been (all 4 of the other main churches). So then they decided to part ways. So which group actually left the original church? Is it the group who wanted to keep things the way they’ve always been or the group that wanted to make changes? Is it the majority of the church members that left the church or the minority? The evidence is pretty overwhelmingly stacked against Rome on this matter brother.
 
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ubicaritas

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Luther's reunion with the east would not have been politically feasable owing to the situation of the Holy Roman Empire, even if he desired it.

Luther did not view absolute unity in national churches as necessary. It had nothing to do with antipathy towards eastern Christians. Even today, Orthodox churches have national churches that are autocephalus. Luther's vision was similar, that each people were entitled to their own church.
 
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ubicaritas

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This shows an incomplete understanding of Luther's theological emphases during his lifetime. In particular you need to read his commentary on Genesis, before arriving at that conclusion. There's more to Luther than simply reading On the Bondage of the Will.

The Good News about Jesus Christ, not election, is the center of Lutheran theology and it always has been going back to Luther. We are not a church about hidden decrees.
 
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Mountainmike

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I notice you fail to answer the question at all on meaning of " bind and loose" from where authority of the pope and council derives.

You also fail to acknowledge the clear statement on " primacy of honour" acknowledged in council. The references are continuous if you look for them. Take the tome of Leo " there speaks Peter" - long before the schism, indeed all the way from iraneus to such as Augustine they quote the list of popes i.e. Bishops of Rome. Not surprising since that is the fulfilment of the holder of keys " called father" way back in Isaiah.

So the eastern bishops moved in. On whose authority is the question? I see the power of Peter to " bind and loose"
I do not see the power of a group of disparate bishops indeed the reverse " what he opens none can shut"

I repeat Protestants never have any sensible answers to what those verses mean, if not council or papal authority.


 
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BNR32FAN

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What relevance does Peter have to the Roman church? Is it because he established the church in Rome? He established the church in Antioch before the church in Rome. So I don’t understand your point.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Where does Peter pass on his authority to bind & loose? Was it passed on to the other popes? If so then what happened to the 99 popes who sanctioned the inquisitions for 686 years and why did the Catholic Church officially apologize for the actions of the men who sanctioned the inquisitions if they had the authority to bind & loose?
 
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