How religion widens the partisan divide

[GACfan]

Simply...trump is the leader of the "republican" party...actually the trumplican party but they seem to have merged, so that "by their fruit you will know them" speaks volumes as to the hypocrisy of character and virtue contained within the party.

QFT. I've said on this site a couple of times that I think the Republican Party has been morphed into the Trump Party and it's been molded to be in his image. I would vote Republican when I thought it was the right thing to do, but I don't recognize the Republican Party anymore. As a Christian, I don't want to be associated with the current Republican Party or with Trump. It's disconcerting enough that a man like Donald Trump is even being associated with the Christian faith in the first place, IMO.

 

[carp614]

Killing the messenger is one way to avoid having to deal with the message.

"Traditional thinking" should not be considered sacred. If it is hampering moving forward, it should be gotten rid of.

I don't see how throwing "religion" under the bus is even remotely progressive. In fact, I think it is the opposite because it focuses on a biased view of the past. It seems intellectually lazy to me. The easiest way to ignore the truth of a thing is to accuse whoever says it of hypocrisy.

 

[hedrick]

This is what happens when a political party allows its agenda to be set by a religion.

I think the history is pretty clear. Starting with Nixon's "southern strategy," Republicans intentionally encouraged and took advantage of the worst aspects of conservative culture and religion. The party didn't "allow its agenda to be set."

 

[carp614]

I believe it should taken quite seriously. Can you show where exactly the stats are manipulated? It would seem to me that on this very forum trump is upheld by many in spite of what seems obvious as to his antithetical rhetoric and behavior of Christian values.

That he has by all accounts overwhelming support among Christians speaks volumes as to the nature of virtue and character, Christian or otherwise. One need only look to various social media platforms to see Christians called for hypocrisy and the jettisoning of Christ's teaching...usually by unbelievers.

I'm not certain, but it sounds like you are saying anyone who says they are Christian and "supports" (whatever that means) Trump is a hypocrite.

If I'm basically right about what you are saying, it suggests that you might believe there was another less hypocritical and therefore better choice.

I saw things differently. This...terrible man...was better than the alternative purely because the stated goals of the democratic party with respect to issues I care about (e.g. abortion, marriage, constitutional rights, etc.) are antithetical to my own. It was not his alignment with my beliefs that forced me to vote for him, it was the democrats vitriol against my beliefs.

 

[Speedwell]

I'm not certain, but it sounds like you are saying anyone who says they are Christian and "supports" (whatever that means) Trump is a hypocrite.

If I'm basically right about what you are saying, it suggests that you might believe there was another less hypocritical and therefore better choice.

I saw things differently. This...terrible man...was better than the alternative purely because the stated goals of the democratic party with respect to issues I care about (e.g. abortion, marriage, constitutional rights, etc.) are antithetical to my own. It was not his alignment with my beliefs that forced me to vote for him, it was the democrats vitriol against my beliefs.

It's not an easy question for you, I imagine, to decide how much immorality you will tolerate in a leader who has promised to help you make Christian sins illegal for all the citizens of a secular state.

 

[Jamsie]

I'm not certain, but it sounds like you are saying anyone who says they are Christian and "supports" (whatever that means) Trump is a hypocrite.

If I'm basically right about what you are saying, it suggests that you might believe there was another less hypocritical and therefore better choice.

I saw things differently. This...terrible man...was better than the alternative purely because the stated goals of the democratic party with respect to issues I care about (e.g. abortion, marriage, constitutional rights, etc.) are antithetical to my own. It was not his alignment with my beliefs that forced me to vote for him, it was the democrats vitriol against my beliefs.

Fair enough. For me I simply won't choose between two "terrible" candidates, with character a primary component. Thus my point simply revolves around the character, rhetoric, and behavior which is demonstrably anathema to Christianity...and yet he is defended by the majority of the Christians with few commenting on his deplorable conduct and speech. Further, he is an opportunist such that principles are malleable to whatever "tickles the ears" of his supporters.

Again, I believe there is a reflection of hypocrisy as to Christianity constantly brought to attention in social media... the distinction between the teachings of Christ and the actual comportment of this president.

 

[carp614]

It's not an easy question for you, I imagine, to decide how much immorality you will tolerate in a leader who has promised to help you make Christian sins illegal for all the citizens of a secular state.

I don't even know where to begin. Your response is difficult for me to understand.

You seem to think I have to decide how much immorality I will tolerate in a leader. I suppose that is true, but it is not as if either candidate in the last election could have credibly been characterized as moral. It wasn't a matter of choosing a moral candidate, it was (and has been for decades) a matter of deciding which candidate was the least worst. Like a race to the bottom if you will. and oh boy was it ever a close race.

I hadn't heard of Trump make promising to make sins illegal. Did he do that? I don't remember him saying anything like that. If he had it would have made me less likely to vote for him.

 

[carp614]

Fair enough. For me I simply won't choose between two "terrible" candidates, with character a primary component. Thus my point simply revolves around the character, rhetoric, and behavior which is demonstrably anathema to Christianity...and yet he is defended by the majority of the Christians with few commenting on his deplorable conduct and speech. Further, he is an opportunist such that principles are malleable to whatever "tickles the ears" of his supporters.

Again, I believe there is a reflection of hypocrisy as to Christianity constantly brought to attention in social media... the distinction between the teachings of Christ and the actual comportment of this president.

ok. You don't want to choose between two terrible candidates. Does that mean you won't vote or are you writing someone in? Just curious.

I must take issue with your assertion that the Majority of Christians defend Trump. I don't see anyone locally defending Trump's comments or behvaior. What I do see are people who are genuinely afraid of the agenda on the left. For example, I recently read an article wherein the leader of an LGBTQ group in the UK was quoted as saying the stated goal of her organization was to "obliterate" traditional gender norms.

Just review the major political goals of the left and compare them to a genuinely biblical world view, not the hate filled anti everything rhetoric version coming from the left, I mean the actual Christian world view based on biblical teachings. You will find that, from the point of view of a conservative Christian, it is beginning to look like the the goal of the left is just to burn it all down.

I don't want that, so I have to vote for a narcissistic buffoon who can only, at best, slow our country's progress towards the dystopian future the hard left wants to force me and everyone I love into.

 

[Speedwell]

I don't even know where to begin. Your response is difficult for me to understand.

You seem to think I have to decide how much immorality I will tolerate in a leader. I suppose that is true, but it is not as if either candidate in the last election could have credibly been characterized as moral. It wasn't a matter of choosing a moral candidate, it was (and has been for decades) a matter of deciding which candidate was the least worst. Like a race to the bottom if you will. and oh boy was it ever a close race.

I hadn't heard of Trump make promising to make sins illegal. Did he do that? I don't remember him saying anything like that. If he had it would have made me less likely to vote for him.

Is it not your desire to recriminalize abortion and gay marriage? If not, what Democratic policy position was abhorrent to your Christian values?

 

[Jamsie]

ok. You don't want to choose between two terrible candidates. Does that mean you won't vote or are you writing someone in? Just curious.

It means that I won't vote (Being a committed political/cultural pessimist it serves little purpose to "write in".) ...though I would have voted for Kasich. (As an aside I received some criticism because I wouldn't vote for our current senator, who I happen to like and agree with most often and is very responsive to my email questions/concerns. However, I believe in term limits by vote, so I give senators 2 or 3 terms and the same with the house.) I would suggest going through many of the threads here at CF if you question as to whether Christians defend trump's speech and conduct...the list of excuses is extensive. Also, I do not believe that the "left" is any more destructive than the "right". It may be that the "right" will bring us fully to the oligarchy we are already well into... having recently watched a doc on the college admission "scandal" there is little doubt that we are a nation committed to wealth interests and have been for quite some time. Seems to me it is simply pick your poison ...

 

[Speedwell]

Just review the major political goals of the left and compare them to a genuinely biblical world view, not the hate filled anti everything rhetoric version coming from the left, I mean the actual Christian world view based on biblical teachings. You will find that, from the point of view of a conservative Christian, it is beginning to look like the the goal of the left is just to burn it all down.

I don't want that, so I have to vote for a narcissistic buffoon who can only, at best, slow our country's progress towards the dystopian future the hard left wants to force me and everyone I love into.

Do you mean that you will be forced to abandon your views? Or merely required to live in a culture where they are no longer dominant?

 

[carp614]

Is it not your desire to recriminalize abortion and gay marriage? If not, what Democratic policy position was abhorrent to your Christian values?

No it is not my desire to recriminalize abortion and gay marriage. The genie is out of the bottle. My desire is for people to recognize sin as sin and turn away from it and towards Jesus Christ. Not to end sin, because that isn't possible, but to fight it.

To be clear, I do see legalized abortion and marriage other than between a man and a woman as abhorrent to Christian values. But to me, seeing them as abhorrent and wanting the state to make them illegal are two different things.

 

[carp614]

Do you mean that you will be forced to abandon your views? Or merely required to live in a culture where they are no longer dominant?

I already live in a culture where my views are "no longer dominant". The modern world is and has been Post-Christian for some time.

I pray that I will always have the strength of conviction to stand firm in my views and hope that I will be good enough at it to do so with love, compassion, and forgiveness. If I'm blessed, the Lord will use me to further His cause.

 

[carp614]

I would suggest going through many of the threads here at CF if you question as to whether Christians defend trump's speech and conduct...the list of excuses is extensive.

I think I have to give you this one. I have also seen people on this forum, specifically in the political forums, defending Trump.

Frankly, I am profoundly conflicted on the subject. I have found that it bothers my conscience to defend the indefensible, so I have been unable to engage in any of the debate around whether or not what he says or tweets is good or bad. I think it is all...just terrible...

For me, his stupid behavior is the price I pay to extend the very short shelf life of my religious freedoms. I'll point out that Beto O'rourke suggested that churches non profit status should be revoked if they aren't sufficiently woke about gender norms. If that doesn't represent a direct political threat to my way of life I don't know what does.

 

[jayem]

All the Democratic Party has to do is have values that will attract moderate Christians?

What exactly does the Democratic Party offer a Christian to woo them to vote Democrat?

What's far more important is the person, not the party. From what I've read, Pete Buttigieg is quite a sincere Christian. The link is interesting. He was born into a non-religious Catholic family (his parents nonetheless taught at Notre Dame) and attended a Catholic high school. He studied religion at Harvard, and had a sort of spiritual awakening at Oxford. He became interested in the Anglican church, and is now Episcopalian. When he can, he attends services at an Episcopal church in South Bend, where he and his husband were married. He believes Christianity is fully compatible with a progressive political agenda. I'm sure that's not your concept of Christianity, but neither you nor anyone else is the arbiter of who is a Christian. The article is a good read, and not too long.

Pete Buttigieg: How the 2020 Democratic hopeful found God.

 

[carp614]

He believes Christianity is fully compatible with a progressive political agenda.

I am quite certain that Mr. Buttgeig's interpretation of Christianity is broken. His position on abortion makes this notion doublespeak of the highest order at best.

 

[Speedwell]

I am quite certain that Mr. Buttgeig's interpretation of Christianity is broken. His position on abortion makes this notion doublespeak of the highest order at best.

We don't know his position on abortion. All we know is that he is opposed to making it a crime for people who don't believe it is a sin.

 

[carp614]

We don't know his position on abortion. All we know is that he is opposed to making it a crime for people who don't believe it is a sin.

I literally found this within 5 seconds...this is his position on abortion.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/10/24/20928483/pete-buttigieg-womens-agenda

Then here is what his campaign website says. He is unequivocally pro abortion.

Pete Buttigieg for President - Issues

Only the most rigorous theological gymnastics allow for Christianity and abortion to coexist.

 

[Speedwell]

I literally found this within 5 seconds...this is his position on abortion.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/10/24/20928483/pete-buttigieg-womens-agenda

Then here is what his campaign website says. He is unequivocally pro abortion.

Pete Buttigieg for President - Issues

Only the most rigorous theological gymnastics allow for Christianity and abortion to coexist.

But we still don't know how he, personally, regards it. As for the theology, it was not all that long ago that the Christian position was that abortion was allowed until "quickening" about 15-20 weeks along.

 

[hislegacy]

What's far more important is the person, not the party. From what I've read, Pete Buttigieg is quite a sincere Christian. The link is interesting. He was born into a non-religious Catholic family (his parents nonetheless taught at Notre Dame) and attended a Catholic high school. He studied religion at Harvard, and had a sort of spiritual awakening at Oxford. He became interested in the Anglican church, and is now Episcopalian. When he can, he attends services at an Episcopal church in South Bend, where he and his husband were married. He believes Christianity is fully compatible with a progressive political agenda. I'm sure that's not your concept of Christianity, but neither you nor anyone else is the arbiter of who is a Christian. The article is a good read, and not too long.

Pete Buttigieg: How the 2020 Democratic hopeful found God.

thanks, good read and his bio is very interesting also.

however what I was referring to was not a specific person, but the issues most of the Christian Right find important and a determine factor.

Abortion - which he supports

among others.