How relevant is theology in the practice of the church?

[CaspianSails]

One would think the answer is obvious but not so much it seems. I was in a church leadership meeting where the topic of God's presence was discussed. It started off fine, if the Holy Spirit indwells the Christian then God's presence is with us and when we come together in church His presence is known. We agreed in principle on that. So I raised the question if God's presence is with us always why during the invocation is statement to the effect asking God to come and join us in the service used. A more correct phrase is to thank God for being with us and for His constant abiding presence with us and allowing us to join together in worship and praise to Him. This of course was rejected. One stated, but the people don't understand that even though we know it to be true so we have to ask Him to come and join with us because they understand that. My response was that people don't know what they stand for because of this kind of thinking. We should speak the truth and then people will know the truth instead of playing to their ignorance of theology and doctrine. Needless to say even the pastor, who was the one talking about the presence of God manifest in us when we come together said it was ok because the Holy Spirit can use it to reach people. There was some disagreement but in the end the leadership decided it was better to be wrong on theology to make it easier, in terms of understanding, for people to believe or be told we need to ask God to join us instead of being thankful for abiding in His presence. It is a small thing in their minds but as I said how and what we say means something and we need to speak what we believe and what we know from God's word. What say you?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

One would think the answer is obvious but not so much it seems. I was in a church leadership meeting where the topic of God's presence was discussed. It started off fine, if the Holy Spirit indwells the Christian then God's presence is with us and when we come together in church His presence is known. We agreed in principle on that. So I raised the question if God's presence is with us always why during the invocation is statement to the effect asking God to come and join us in the service used. A more correct phrase is to thank God for being with us and for His constant abiding presence with us and allowing us to join together in worship and praise to Him. This of course was rejected. One stated, but the people don't understand that even though we know it to be true so we have to ask Him to come and join with us because they understand that. My response was that people don't know what they stand for because of this kind of thinking. We should speak the truth and then people will know the truth instead of playing to their ignorance of theology and doctrine. Needless to say even the pastor, who was the one talking about the presence of God manifest in us when we come together said it was ok because the Holy Spirit can use it to reach people. There was some disagreement but in the end the leadership decided it was better to be wrong on theology to make it easier, in terms of understanding, for people to believe or be told we need to ask God to join us instead of being thankful for abiding in His presence. It is a small thing in their minds but as I said how and what we say means something and we need to speak what we believe and what we know from God's word. What say you?

The problem is that some believe that the Holy Spirit is some sort of mist that hovers over us, or that He is some kind of "electricity" that flows through us. Others believe that the Holy Spirit waits outside the church for people to invite Him in. All these views of the Holy Spirit are lies.

Jesus said that when two or three are gathered together, there He is in the midst of them. This is because every true believer has the Holy Spirit indwelling their spirit. This means that every believer who walks into the service brings the Holy Spirit in with him. Therefore the Holy Spirit is right there in the service.

The trouble is that the Holy Spirit works through each believer making his or her contribution to the service. This is what Paul talked about when he described a typical service as one having a hymn, another a spiritual song, another a word of encouragement, another a revelation, another a prophecy. The trouble is with most churches, the congregation is passive, observing the one-man-band at the front doing everything. This is because of the belief that the Holy Spirit can only 'anoint" the pastor or preacher. In actual fact, the New Testament knows nothing of this.

So, the prayer, "Lord, let the Holy Spirit hover over us" is a pointless prayer, because the Holy Spirit is right inside of us, waiting to flow out. If we don't allow Him to flow out in the way Paul described as to what should happen in a Christian service, then He is limited and cannot work the way He wants.

 

[Daniel9v9]

One would think the answer is obvious but not so much it seems. I was in a church leadership meeting where the topic of God's presence was discussed. It started off fine, if the Holy Spirit indwells the Christian then God's presence is with us and when we come together in church His presence is known. We agreed in principle on that. So I raised the question if God's presence is with us always why during the invocation is statement to the effect asking God to come and join us in the service used. A more correct phrase is to thank God for being with us and for His constant abiding presence with us and allowing us to join together in worship and praise to Him. This of course was rejected. One stated, but the people don't understand that even though we know it to be true so we have to ask Him to come and join with us because they understand that. My response was that people don't know what they stand for because of this kind of thinking. We should speak the truth and then people will know the truth instead of playing to their ignorance of theology and doctrine. Needless to say even the pastor, who was the one talking about the presence of God manifest in us when we come together said it was ok because the Holy Spirit can use it to reach people. There was some disagreement but in the end the leadership decided it was better to be wrong on theology to make it easier, in terms of understanding, for people to believe or be told we need to ask God to join us instead of being thankful for abiding in His presence. It is a small thing in their minds but as I said how and what we say means something and we need to speak what we believe and what we know from God's word. What say you?

It would be helpful to know what church body you belong to, in order to understand the fuller theological framework they're operating in. But to put it simply, theology and doctrine matters, because they're not merely abstract and academic ideas, but everything that we believe, teach and confess. For someone to say that theology doesn't matter is in effect the same as saying the truth doesn't matter.

To be compassionate and kind does not mean indifference and disregard towards God's Word. Everything Scriptures say is true and important, and it should be taught with great care, love and accuracy, or as it's written: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

 

[JIMINZ]

But to put it simply, theology and doctrine matters, because they're not merely abstract and academic ideas, but everything that we believe, teach and confess.

To put it more simply, Theology is the subject, if we keep it simple and not cloud the issue with other subjects such as introducing Doctrine into the discussion, then the issue of Theology will get lost in the mix.

Theology is the teachings of what others have said Scripture says.

Theology is nothing more than a Commentary by a Theologian of Scripture itself, and their belief as to the meaning, (understanding) of said Scripture.

For someone to say that theology doesn't matter is in effect the same as saying the truth doesn't matter.

For someone to say, Theology does in effect matter, is the same as saying, they would rather follow what someone else has said any given piece of Scripture says, rather than reading said Scripture themselves and letting the Holy Spirit Teach them Personally.

Are we any less than any Theologian, that we cannot expect the Holy Spirit to teach us.

1Jn. 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

To put is simply, the only inerrant TRUTH we as human beings have is, the Word of God (The Bible) and to place the Teachings of any Theologian equal to the Bible is to take steps in a dangerous direction.

 

[Peter J Barban]

One would think the answer is obvious but not so much it seems. I was in a church leadership meeting where the topic of God's presence was discussed. It started off fine, if the Holy Spirit indwells the Christian then God's presence is with us and when we come together in church His presence is known. We agreed in principle on that. So I raised the question if God's presence is with us always why during the invocation is statement to the effect asking God to come and join us in the service used. A more correct phrase is to thank God for being with us and for His constant abiding presence with us and allowing us to join together in worship and praise to Him. This of course was rejected. One stated, but the people don't understand that even though we know it to be true so we have to ask Him to come and join with us because they understand that. My response was that people don't know what they stand for because of this kind of thinking. We should speak the truth and then people will know the truth instead of playing to their ignorance of theology and doctrine. Needless to say even the pastor, who was the one talking about the presence of God manifest in us when we come together said it was ok because the Holy Spirit can use it to reach people. There was some disagreement but in the end the leadership decided it was better to be wrong on theology to make it easier, in terms of understanding, for people to believe or be told we need to ask God to join us instead of being thankful for abiding in His presence. It is a small thing in their minds but as I said how and what we say means something and we need to speak what we believe and what we know from God's word. What say you?

There are different aspects of God's presence. Aside from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there is the manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Moreover, Jesus says that the work of the Holy Spirit is to guide, comfort, empower and convict people. While these operations can be done on an individual level, they can also be done on a corporate level. Sometimes the Holy Spirit manifests God's presence during the meeting on many people.

Additionally, during times of revival, there is testimony of people experiencing the presence of God throughout the city, even by unbelievers.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

Jesus said that when two or three are gathered together, there He is in the midst of them.

Matt 18:20 is one of the most misapplied and incorrectly interpreted verses in the New Testament. Almost every commentary will point out the context of this verse is instruction on how to determine truth and next steps when confronting the sin of another believer. The “to or more gathered” concept was previously established in Deuteronomy and that is what the reference is to in Matt.

unfortunately,
People think it means Christians have super powers to summon the Lord into their midst when they get together, when the Holy Spirit is always present.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Matt 18:20 is one of the most misapplied and incorrectly interpreted verses in the New Testament. Almost every commentary will point out the context of this verse is instruction on how to determine truth and next steps when confronting the sin of another believer. The “to or more gathered” concept was previously established in Deuteronomy and that is what the reference is to in Matt.

unfortunately,
People think it means Christians have super powers to summon the Lord into their midst when they get together, when the Holy Spirit is always present.

The truth is that Jesus is in the midst of us because the Holy Spirit as His representative is living in our spirit. I tell the people that they don't have to hype up things to get the atmosphere for worship, because they are the atmosphere, because they brought it in when they came and sat down.

 

[Peter J Barban]

I think it is healthy to desire to experience the Holy Spirit on a communal level.

God manifested his presence in the Bible to the community. Let's be careful not to say that God only works within the individual believer. That is not biblical.

The danger is in hyping up people's emotions as a substitute for the Spirit. That is where most "spiritual" worship goes wrong.

 

[com7fy8]

There was some disagreement but in the end the leadership decided it was better to be wrong on theology to make it easier, in terms of understanding, for people to believe or be told we need to ask God to join us instead of being thankful for abiding in His presence.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, every child of God is "joined" to Jesus, spiritually. So, we are not only present with Him, at times, but actually joined together with Him inside ourselves > Romans 5:5.

But do we always experience this? While we are with our brothers and sisters in a gathering, we might more fully experience God, and this more-than-usual experience might be what people mean by the Lord's presence.

So, I can understand if someone in prayer asks God to bless us with His presence, meaning experiencing Him more than we usually do. And then this can be our standard of how to share with God all the time . . . more and more as we grow . . . even when we are not with each other.

And what helps with this? Yes, Jesus says to ask > Matthew 7:7; so I can see prayer being involved. Plus, submit to God for how He personally rules us all the time in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

And trust our Heavenly Father to change our character so we always are in sharing with Him and submissive to how He personally rules us in His own peace.

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

We do well to seek to be pleasing to God, by being gentle and quiet in our character, in His love curing our nature to become like Jesus who is so pleasing to Him.

From this, I now see that God is quiet . . . never silent. But we can give in to and go along with noisy stuff of anger and arguing and complaining and doubting and unforgiveness and desires for pleasures and financial security, and we can be noisy with worrying about people and things.

So, be still. God has not gone anywhere

 

[GaveMeJoy]

I think it is healthy to desire to experience the Holy Spirit on a communal level.

God manifested his presence in the Bible to the community. Let's be careful not to say that God only works within the individual believer. That is not biblical.

The danger is in hyping up people's emotions as a substitute for the Spirit. That is where most "spiritual" worship goes wrong.

No one said the Holy Spirit only works in the individual.

 

[Daniel9v9]

To put it more simply, Theology is the subject, if we keep it simple and not cloud the issue with other subjects such as introducing Doctrine into the discussion, then the issue of Theology will get lost in the mix.

Theology is the teachings of what others have said Scripture says.

Theology is nothing more than a Commentary by a Theologian of Scripture itself, and their belief as to the meaning, (understanding) of said Scripture.



For someone to say, Theology does in effect matter, is the same as saying, they would rather follow what someone else has said any given piece of Scripture says, rather than reading said Scripture themselves and letting the Holy Spirit Teach them Personally.

Are we any less than any Theologian, that we cannot expect the Holy Spirit to teach us.

1Jn. 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

To put is simply, the only inerrant TRUTH we as human beings have is, the Word of God (The Bible) and to place the Teachings of any Theologian equal to the Bible is to take steps in a dangerous direction.

While I can appreciate that on a popular level, especially in our generation, the word “theology” can be understood as synonymous with “commentary”, but that’s not a very accurate description. Theology is simply the dedication to, meditation on and study of God’s Word. It’s different from the study of all other subjects as in theology, we are always subject to and never above Scriptures. God’s Word is always the highest authority; it is above every man, council, philosophy or reason.

I would also add to this that, whether or not it’s recognised by the individual churches and its members, all church bodies have and teach theology. Every church or movement has inherited a system of thought or a theological framework that they operate in. So no one is without theology. We can’t divorce theology from what is taught and done in church, because theology is practical and tangible, it’s what we believe, teach and do.

As for ”doctrine”, it simply means “teaching”. That is, if we for example teach that Jesus Christ is Lord of all, as we should, that is a teaching - a doctrine. It has been handed us by the prophets and apostles, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and by Christ who is the cornerstone of our faith.

Theology, then, in its proper place, should be understood as devotion to the apostles' doctrine, fellowship, the breaking of bread, and prayers. This is by God’s grace, through the working of the Holy Spirit, by means of Scripture.

 

[CaspianSails]

There are different aspects of God's presence. Aside from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there is the manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Moreover, Jesus says that the work of the Holy Spirit is to guide, comfort, empower and convict people. While these operations can be done on an individual level, they can also be done on a corporate level. Sometimes the Holy Spirit manifests God's presence during the meeting on many people.

Additionally, during times of revival, there is testimony of people experiencing the presence of God throughout the city, even by unbelievers.

Specifically we were talking about an invocation and whether God needs us to invite him to join us. God is with us always. However the real issue where we differed is after it was agreed that it is more aptly put as an invocation to thank God for His constant presence and that indeed God is always present with the believer and needs no invitation, regardless, to be present with us. This is all fine. The leader or pastor then noted that the people who have less knowledge of God does not understand this and for sake the worship leader asks God to join us and come into our presence. This is nonsensical and only confuses those who do not understand as it sets a false concept of entering into God presence as a request for God to enter into the presence of the assembled. To some this is a small point. To present it as acceptable is in essence to reinforce the notion that God's presence is subject to our asking for Him to come to us as believers. While some do accept this teaching and it is in line with other American sourced teachings which portray God as subject to the actions of believers it is not in line with the authority of God. It would seem better to stand on what is the action of giving God thanks for his abiding presence and His manifestation among His people. It is the same as this question, do we join God in what He is doing or do we ask God to bless what we are doing. I have a long history with many congregations of different doctrine including Assembly of God and independent pentecostals, although most avoid the label pentecostal. I have also worshipped for extended periods of times with Southern Baptists, Grace Brethren, my father in law was a minister with the Church of the Brethren and have attended Methodist churches at times. Whether doctrine or theology one needs to follow what you is believed and not modify it simply because you think others will no understand. In the end you simply sow confusion among those who are most in need of sound teaching especially from the pulpit. For me at least, the Apostle's Creed is a statement of faith I stand with.