How Preterism Changes our Mindset

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
Personally, Joe, I am kinda with you. It doesn't strike a chord with me (although a lot of preterism does) that the world just continues ad infinitum in the same (yet ever "better") state. For one thing, there would always be a divide between the dead souls and the living. I doesn't seem that the plan would have gone full-circle until all believers are brought together. I think the Bible seems to make it pretty clear that the curse (including physical death) and its consequences will be completely removed. How can this be if in 3000 years, everybody alive is a believer and then they die and go to heaven - and that continues for eternity. That seems exceptionally odd, and I personally must have more biblical substantiation, because I just can't extrapolate that from the Bible as I read it.

Didask, great stuff! I am enjoying your input. very thought provoking and challenging! Thank you.

Since I do not have all the answers, I can only offer limited insight from my prerspective as an ex-futurist struggling to reconcile these issues you are grappling with today.

As for the ever expanding Kingdom, Isaiah 9:7 comes to mind.

As for a Divide between the living souls and the dead, can you be more specific? The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that nothing can seperate the Boody of Christ, not even physical death, so while there may appear from our temporal perspective to be a divide, my faith in the scriptures convinces me there is, in reality, no division at all.

Was Physical death brought on by the fall?
I have discussed this in many threads before and it always fascinates me. My current belief is that physical death itself was not a result of the fall, but that the fall turned physical death into the very real barrier between man and God, that it was before Christ came and "fixed" it.

Now, Physical death has been restored to its original purpose: To bring us into a deeper level of human existance. An existance ordained from the beginning of creation.

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by parousia70

Was Physical death brought on by the fall?
I have discussed this in many threads before and it always fascinates me. My current belief is that physical death itself was not a result of the fall, but that the fall turned physical death into the very real barrier between man and God, that it was before Christ came and "fixed" it.

The Bible, and therefore GOD, teaches that "the wages of sin is death". We die because we sin. Adam and Eve were told they would die because of their sin, and we also die because we are sinners.

 

[Mandy]

Exactly Auntie. We sin because we are sinners and part of the curse is physical death.

 

[GTX]

P70, I like your Spongebob avatar, but your beliefs are a little misguided I believe.

 

[davo]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
I doesn't seem that the plan would have gone full-circle until all believers are brought together. I think the Bible seems to make it pretty clear that the curse (including physical death) and its consequences will be completely removed.

This Didaskomenos is the problem with the futurist mindset -it interprets according to temporal realities, and consequently misses the covenantal picture replete through the scriptures. Salvation HAS come "full-circle" i.e., was complete in Christ's Parousia. The dividing wall came down and in Christ, and Believers whether Jew or Gentile were brought together. The "curse" that was turned back according to the scriptures was the curse of the Law. It was the Law that ministered Death [covenantal separation from God 2Cor 3:7-11], because when the Law [command] came sin revived and so in death reigned Rom 5:21, 7:9. Christ fulfilled its requirements so bringing covenantal life, conquering covenantal death -real death 2Tim 1:10. The language of restoration while using "earthly props" is not about temporal realities, but is covenantal and eternal.

That's why, having sung the victory song: ..."Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 1Cor 15:54-55.

And then followed on with: "The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law." 1Cor 15:56

When the Law was dealt with so then would sin be dealt with, then would death [covenantal separation] be abolished -they were dominos.

And Jesus said He came to fulfil the Law -and if He hasn't then we are still hopelessly lost in our sins. Jesus said "heaven and earth would remain [not pass away] until all the Law was completely fulfilled. "Heaven and Earth" are still here -so where does that leave us??? This is a problem when looked at through "through temporal glasses" -however when you take into account "covenant" then it makes sense. Heaven and Earth being a metaphor for Old Covenant Israel -typified by Jerusalem and her Temple.

The Old Creation order fell at the Parousia in AD70, being consumated in the New. Fulfilled redemption is the New Heavens and Earth [covenantally, and covenant IS the focus of scripture, not temporal utopic bliss]. "If any man be in Christ he is a new creation." This is consistant biblical language.

davo

 

[jenlu]

Didask...

That is one thing I am trying to understand as well...

Parousia...I really like that explanation...I've always thought that physical death was associated with the curse so it's hard to separate from that...but it is becoming clearer...I also always thought when God said you will surely die he meant spiritual death so I don't know where I go the notion that Adam was created not to die(physically)...

davo...also, very good understanding of the accomplishment of Jesus Christ...when you think about what He said he was doing and put it in a proper perspective, it begins to make sense and it's a beautiful thing...

 

[Ozarkpreterist]

Originally posted by Mandy
Exactly Auntie. We sin because we are sinners and part of the curse is physical death.

Mandy,

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:10 through Galatians 3:14 (NKJV)

If Jesus has become the curse for us and has redeemed us from the Law, why do people still die physically? It seems by your line of reasoning that physical death should be no more.

Ozark

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


The Bible, and therefore GOD, teaches that "the wages of sin is death". We die because we sin. Adam and Eve were told they would die because of their sin, and we also die because we are sinners.

Not exactly.........

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that the "sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the Law.(1 Cor. 15:56)
and "Sin is not imputed when there is no Law."(Rom. 9:8)

We Die physically because all created earthly beings (humans included) are subject to physical decay and a finite biologic lifespan. Besides, the Bible, and therefore Christianity, teaches tht we all have an "appointment" with physical death. (Heb 9:27)

Christ was the only one promised that His physical body would not see decay. the only one.

Sin has no power to condemn apart from the Law. The Law is what gave sin it's strength, and apart from the Law, sin is powerless to prevent anyone from salvation.

I noticed You conviently left out the part that not only did God tell A & E they would die for their sin, but they in fact would die on the very day they ate from the tree.

Did they? I believe they did, and I don't need 2 Peter 3:8 to justify it.

 

[Ozarkpreterist]

I wonder if I could enlist the help of the preterists on this board. I have had this idea rolling around in my head for awhile. I need some help discerning if I am seeing something here or if the altitude is just getting to me. Any insights or comments would be much appreciated. I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

For some reason, we don’t hear very much about the feast of Tabernacles and how it is fulfilled in Christ. We certainly hear about Passover and how it is a magnificent type of Christ’s atonement. We also hear about Pentecost. However, there is virtual silence on this final and perhaps grandest of feasts. I have come to believe the reason is for this is the church’s misunderstanding of the time of the end. I have heard little teaching on any possible correlation between the Feast of Tabernacles and the events that occurred at the Parousia. Yet, I believe there may be a connection.

As we know the feast of Tabernacles was the last and most joyous of the three major feasts of Israel. (There were actually seven feasts, but three were major.) For years I had sought the Lord about the Feast of Tabernacles. I thought it had to have some sort of set and final fulfillment. Moreover, I thought it would have to have fulfillment after Passover and Pentecost. Passover, of course was fulfilled at the cross. Pentecost in Acts 2. Tabernacles was last chronologically, but when and how?

However, lately with some help from Alfred Edersheim’s book “The Temple Its Ministry and Services” I have begun to notice some possible correlations between the rituals of this feast and the events that happened at the Parousia.

The Feast of Tabernacles was about the Presence of God.

This feast was also called the Feast of Booths. In the Old Testament God commanded the people to build booths made of leafy branches to dwell in during the feast. While this looked back to the time when the Hebrew people lived in booths in the wilderness, it was also a type or foreshadow that was to be fulfilled in Christ.

According to David Chilton in his book “Days of Vengeance,” the word that is translated to booths in Leviticus 26 is the same word used to describe the covering of the presence of God in other places in the scriptures. Therefore I think we can deduce that these booths represented dwelling in the presence of God.

We see this type fulfilled in Revelation 21:

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, £John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. Revelation 21:1 through Revelation 21:3 (NKJV)

The Feast of Tabernacles was a feast of great joy. We can see why. It meant that the presence of the Lord has become our dwelling place through the finished works of Christ.

The feast of Tabernacles was about God’s presence in us.

During the Feast of Tabernacles a priest would take water from the Pool of Siloam and some wine and pour them over the altar in the Tabernacle. Jesus while attending the great feast showed the meaning of this act and that He was the fulfillment of this ritual in John chapter seven. It could have been at the completion of this ritual that Jesus said the following:

“Now on the last day, the great day of the feast [of Tabernacles], Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ‘If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water. (John 7:37-38).’”

And do we not see this great truth consummated in Revelation:

Revelation 21:6 (NKJV)
And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

And

Revelation 22:1-2

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

(Note: No one thinks Jesus was talking about a literal building or fountain or city from which the living waters would flow in John 7. Why is it all of a sudden a literal city or fountain in the book of Revelation?)

Furthermore, when the priest poured out the wine and the water, the worshippers would wave their Lulavs towards the altar. (Lulavs were a sort of fan made from palm, myrtle, and willow branches.) This was looking forward to the day when the reign of the Messiah would come forth from the lineage of David. They did not wave the branches towards the sky (Sorry, futurists!) but towards the heart of the Tabernacle. In this we see the place from which the reign of the King comes forth. His reign comes as living waters pour forth from the lives of His beloved who are His living Tabernacle.

The feast of Tabernacles was about the reign of the Messiah

We have a Messianic Rabbi who attends a community prayer meeting I attend. He told me that the feast of Tabernacles has a lot to do with the Messianic kingdom and the rule of the Messiah. He, however, thinks this feast is yet to be fulfilled through the literal nation of Israel.

We see a glimmer of such understanding in the manner the Lord Jesus was greeted as He came to Jerusalem riding on a donkey. The people cut down palm branches and waved them before Him just as the people waved their Lulavs at the feast of Tabernacles. In this they were signifying that He was the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles. He was Messiah, the One who was not only their Savior but King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He was the One from the lineage of David Who would rule over all. They were expecting the rule of the King then in their lifetime not 2000+ years later. Indeed, Jesus did come and smite His enemies and He brought the rule of His kingdom less than a generation later.

And from whence to we see His reign coming forth on the earth today? Is it a literal tabernacle in the literal city of Jerusalem with Jesus literally in bodily form sitting on a literal throne. Some people think these things are coming!

No, we see where His reign pours forth from:

Revelation 22:3-5
And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

His reign pours forth not from Jesus in a literal body like He once walked the earth, but through His current body—the body of Christ (His living Tabernacle) concerning which John wrote: “As He is so are we in the world (I John 4:17).”

The Old Testament Holiest of Holies had no natural lighting. It was lit by the glory of God. Revelation 22:5 is a little “temple talk.” However, in the New Covenant this is spiritual. When Jesus said in John 8:12 “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life,” He did not plan on replacing street lamps. He also said the same thing concerning us in Matthew 5:14. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.”

It is interesting that the feast of Tabernacles was the only feast that focused not only on Israel but all the nations of the world. During this festival the priests offered 70 bullocks. The view presented in the Talmud is that these represented the nations of the earth. It is interesting that Revelation 22 speaks also of the healing of the nations.

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:1 through Revelation 22:2 (NKJV)

The Feast of Tabernacles was about Rest and completion

Moreover, the feast of Tabernacles symbolized rest and completion. The number seven which shows God’s perfection permeated the feast. It took place in the seventh month, lasted seven days, and its sacrifices were given in multiplies of seven. Everyday was like a Sabbath day during this feast. No work was allowed. However, This was not a solemn rest but a joyous time of rejoicing. If indeed Tabernacles has not been fulfilled, we are still without God’s promised rest. It is left for another dispensation.

In fact, I think it is quite possible that much of the church is stuck in a Pentecost mind set. As we know the time of Pentecost was a transitional period. The kingdom of God was “there but not yet.” I have heard cries from some preachers of “Pentecost at any cost!” What we need to realize is that Pentecost was not the final destination of the church. It was the rest and consummation of Tabernacles. In the time of Pentecost they were gaining victory. In Tabernacles we have it.

Furthermore, if the Parousia has not yet occurred, we are left with the fact that Jesus is Savior, but we are left without the fact that Jesus is Lord. (The reality that Jesus is Lord over all the nations of the earth is gloriously illustrated at the Feast of Tabernacles.) Preterist thought seeks to change the mindset of the church to include the fact that Jesus is Lord here, now, and forever (A Tabernacles mindset? As our brother Davo likes to say, “Salvation is not a battle but a banquet.” Tabernacles definitely had such a feel to it.). Moreover, the church is not left in the position of waiting to gain the kingdom of God. Rather we are a people in full possession of God’s very present kingdom and the glory of His abiding presence.

Ozark

 

[davo]

One word Ozark BRILLIANT!

Also, Eze 37 is about the resurrection of Israel and the blessings that flowed from it. It was the restoration of His presence through the everlasting covenant in Christ:

Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore [Rev 21:3]. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations [Zech 2:10-11, Eze 47:22] also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.

And those healing waters that quench thirsts eternally and bring continual healing are also those found in Eze 47.

davo

 

[parousia70]

I agree! Great stuff Ozark!
I especially like the "Living Waters" references.

"In that day living waters shall flow from Jerusalem"

It never ceases to amaze me how someone can agree that Living waters are flowing right now, available to all who thirst, yet in the same breath say "that day" is yet future.

It's like they think The Living waters we have available to us today are only a "type" of the real living waters we are yet to receive.

To me, that's the same as saying, Jesus blood that now saves us is only a "type" of some future greater redemption from sin we are yet to receive.

I find them equally untennable.

 

[davo]

Yes, and the flow of blood and water that flowed from our saviour's side has meant 'LIFE' ever since. "It Is Finished!"

davo

 

[Brian45]

Parousia 70 . You wouldn't be saying those things if you lived in Etheopia and were starving to death , or if you were eating out and some idiot blows himself up and takes out your family . You only speak like that because you live in wealth and comfort and have need of nothing . Oh how wonderfull life is , if you happen to be me . Try wearing another mans shoes . This might be Gods kingdom to you , but it's not for many others .

 

[Brian45]

Parousia 70 . I am refering to your statement on page 1

 

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist
I wonder if I could enlist the help of the preterists on this board. I have had this idea rolling around in my head for awhile. I need some help discerning if I am seeing something here or if the altitude is just getting to me. Any insights or comments would be much appreciated. I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

For some reason, we don’t hear very much about the feast of Tabernacles and how it is fulfilled in Christ. We certainly hear about Passover and how it is a magnificent type of Christ’s atonement. We also hear about Pentecost. However, there is virtual silence on this final and perhaps grandest of feasts. I have come to believe the reason is for this is the church’s misunderstanding of the time of the end. I have heard little teaching on any possible correlation between the Feast of Tabernacles and the events that occurred at the Parousia. Yet, I believe there may be a connection.

As we know the feast of Tabernacles was the last and most joyous of the three major feasts of Israel. (There were actually seven feasts, but three were major.) For years I had sought the Lord about the Feast of Tabernacles. I thought it had to have some sort of set and final fulfillment. Moreover, I thought it would have to have fulfillment after Passover and Pentecost. Passover, of course was fulfilled at the cross. Pentecost in Acts 2. Tabernacles was last chronologically, but when and how?

However, lately with some help from Alfred Edersheim’s book “The Temple Its Ministry and Services” I have begun to notice some possible correlations between the rituals of this feast and the events that happened at the Parousia.

The Feast of Tabernacles was about the Presence of God.

This feast was also called the Feast of Booths. In the Old Testament God commanded the people to build booths made of leafy branches to dwell in during the feast. While this looked back to the time when the Hebrew people lived in booths in the wilderness, it was also a type or foreshadow that was to be fulfilled in Christ.

According to David Chilton in his book “Days of Vengeance,” the word that is translated to booths in Leviticus 26 is the same word used to describe the covering of the presence of God in other places in the scriptures. Therefore I think we can deduce that these booths represented dwelling in the presence of God.

We see this type fulfilled in Revelation 21:

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, £John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. Revelation 21:1 through Revelation 21:3 (NKJV)

The Feast of Tabernacles was a feast of great joy. We can see why. It meant that the presence of the Lord has become our dwelling place through the finished works of Christ.

The feast of Tabernacles was about God’s presence in us.

During the Feast of Tabernacles a priest would take water from the Pool of Siloam and some wine and pour them over the altar in the Tabernacle. Jesus while attending the great feast showed the meaning of this act and that He was the fulfillment of this ritual in John chapter seven. It could have been at the completion of this ritual that Jesus said the following:

“Now on the last day, the great day of the feast [of Tabernacles], Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ‘If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water. (John 7:37-38).’”

And do we not see this great truth consummated in Revelation:

Revelation 21:6 (NKJV)
And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

And

Revelation 22:1-2

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

(Note: No one thinks Jesus was talking about a literal building or fountain or city from which the living waters would flow in John 7. Why is it all of a sudden a literal city or fountain in the book of Revelation?)

Furthermore, when the priest poured out the wine and the water, the worshippers would wave their Lulavs towards the altar. (Lulavs were a sort of fan made from palm, myrtle, and willow branches.) This was looking forward to the day when the reign of the Messiah would come forth from the lineage of David. They did not wave the branches towards the sky (Sorry, futurists!) but towards the heart of the Tabernacle. In this we see the place from which the reign of the King comes forth. His reign comes as living waters pour forth from the lives of His beloved who are His living Tabernacle.

The feast of Tabernacles was about the reign of the Messiah

We have a Messianic Rabbi who attends a community prayer meeting I attend. He told me that the feast of Tabernacles has a lot to do with the Messianic kingdom and the rule of the Messiah. He, however, thinks this feast is yet to be fulfilled through the literal nation of Israel.

We see a glimmer of such understanding in the manner the Lord Jesus was greeted as He came to Jerusalem riding on a donkey. The people cut down palm branches and waved them before Him just as the people waved their Lulavs at the feast of Tabernacles. In this they were signifying that He was the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles. He was Messiah, the One who was not only their Savior but King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He was the One from the lineage of David Who would rule over all. They were expecting the rule of the King then in their lifetime not 2000+ years later. Indeed, Jesus did come and smite His enemies and He brought the rule of His kingdom less than a generation later.

And from whence to we see His reign coming forth on the earth today? Is it a literal tabernacle in the literal city of Jerusalem with Jesus literally in bodily form sitting on a literal throne. Some people think these things are coming!

No, we see where His reign pours forth from:

Revelation 22:3-5
And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

His reign pours forth not from Jesus in a literal body like He once walked the earth, but through His current body—the body of Christ (His living Tabernacle) concerning which John wrote: “As He is so are we in the world (I John 4:17).”

The Old Testament Holiest of Holies had no natural lighting. It was lit by the glory of God. Revelation 22:5 is a little “temple talk.” However, in the New Covenant this is spiritual. When Jesus said in John 8:12 “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life,” He did not plan on replacing street lamps. He also said the same thing concerning us in Matthew 5:14. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.”

It is interesting that the feast of Tabernacles was the only feast that focused not only on Israel but all the nations of the world. During this festival the priests offered 70 bullocks. The view presented in the Talmud is that these represented the nations of the earth. It is interesting that Revelation 22 speaks also of the healing of the nations.

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:1 through Revelation 22:2 (NKJV)

The Feast of Tabernacles was about Rest and completion

Moreover, the feast of Tabernacles symbolized rest and completion. The number seven which shows God’s perfection permeated the feast. It took place in the seventh month, lasted seven days, and its sacrifices were given in multiplies of seven. Everyday was like a Sabbath day during this feast. No work was allowed. However, This was not a solemn rest but a joyous time of rejoicing. If indeed Tabernacles has not been fulfilled, we are still without God’s promised rest. It is left for another dispensation.

In fact, I think it is quite possible that much of the church is stuck in a Pentecost mind set. As we know the time of Pentecost was a transitional period. The kingdom of God was “there but not yet.” I have heard cries from some preachers of “Pentecost at any cost!” What we need to realize is that Pentecost was not the final destination of the church. It was the rest and consummation of Tabernacles. In the time of Pentecost they were gaining victory. In Tabernacles we have it.

Furthermore, if the Parousia has not yet occurred, we are left with the fact that Jesus is Savior, but we are left without the fact that Jesus is Lord. (The reality that Jesus is Lord over all the nations of the earth is gloriously illustrated at the Feast of Tabernacles.) Preterist thought seeks to change the mindset of the church to include the fact that Jesus is Lord here, now, and forever (A Tabernacles mindset? As our brother Davo likes to say, “Salvation is not a battle but a banquet.” Tabernacles definitely had such a feel to it.). Moreover, the church is not left in the position of waiting to gain the kingdom of God. Rather we are a people in full possession of God’s very present kingdom and the glory of His abiding presence.

I also agree brother great work.
Ozark

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Brian45
Parousia 70 . You wouldn't be saying those things if you lived in Etheopia and were starving to death , or if you were eating out and some idiot blows himself up and takes out your family . You only speak like that because you live in wealth and comfort and have need of nothing . Oh how wonderfull life is , if you happen to be me . Try wearing another mans shoes . This might be Gods kingdom to you , but it's not for many others .

Perhaps I wouldn't have said them if I were living under the circumstances you mentioned, however, that dosen't make what I said any less true.

I have trials and tribulations just like the next man.
I've been on the street, broke & hungry, I've lost family members to disease, I have been near death myself due largely to my previous "disbelief" in what I now hold to be true.

Now, If you are implying tat the Church in Etheopia is powerless to achieve positive change in this world, I'd like to know why?

To say that this world is not God's Kingdom because certain people don't recognise that it is, is quite a stretch, and unsupportable from scripture.

Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords today, He dwells in us and we in Him, He is the Ruler of this world today and evermore. Above all principality, government, or kingdom.

Forgive me if I find the suggestion of anything to the contrary, simply untennable.

 

[NumberOneSon]

I agree with P70: it is entirely a western concept that wealth and comfort equals a wonderful life. It is sometimes easily forgotten that the Apostle's letters to the Church express an enormous amount of joy, victory, and celebration in terms of life and God's Kindgom on Earth, while at the same time many of them where experiencing starvation, beatings, poverty, and sometimes facing death. In fact, Brian, it was normal for the 1st Century Church to experience similiar living conditions to those in current day Ethiopia (most of the population within the Roman Empire lived in squalid, third-world conditions). Death to a Christian in those times was just as uncertain as it is to a Jew living in Jerusalem today.

And yet the Apostles continually talked about the current victory of the Church, the joy of life in Christ, the glory of the Body of Christ, the Holy Nation, the royal priesthood, the kingdom of God on earth that was present THEN. Temporal sufferings did not effect Paul's attitude toward his victorious life in Christ and the advancement of the Body of Christ, and as we all know Paul suffered a great deal of earthly tragedy. P70's words are only reflecting the same victory that Paul himself declared, regardless of our worldly status.

Poverty or persecution does not stop a Child of God from having a positive future in the Kingdom of God that can affect the world for good, a life that can be full of peace, joy, and happiness. Poverty or persecution does not end a believer's chance to have a productive future for himself or his children in this world. It's the kind of life where believers can be beaten, whipped, and thrown into prison, and yet while in chains they'll still sing songs of praise to God! A westernized/Americanized worldview has trouble understanding "joy and success" can be obtained without the presence of wealth or comfort.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist
How Preterism Changes our Mindset

I would like us to ask “What is next?” If we embrace Preterism, how should it change our mindset and indeed our lives?

Here's a small example of how preterism has changed my mindset.

My 2 year old son has grown very attached to a small stuffed Rhino he received as a Christmas gift on his first Christmas.

He will not go anywhere without it, and it is the only thing that comforts him in times of "toddler crisis", which at 2 years old, as fellow parents can attest, are frequent.

In the course of the past 18 months, Rhino has grown tattered and torn. We have sewn him up several times but he is on his last legs.

I contacted the manufacturer to inquire about where to find a new one. They informed me that the Rhino was no longer in production, and wished me luck in my search. So search I did.

After scouring the ends of the internet, I was finally able to secure not one, not two, but 3 of these particular "Rhinos" I have decided to use one as the "working replacement" for the current, tattered one, one as a "Backup"..........

And I had a great Idea for what to do with the 3rd!

I am having it vacuum sealed, and I am going to store it, keeping it to give to my Son's first born Child.

This is something I never would have thought of doing, or even felt there was any point in doing, when I was a futurist.

I would have balked at the Idea, believing it to be a pointless, fruitless fantasy that had no part in the reality of what I believed was "about to ocour" in "This generation".

If it weren't for the adoption of a preterist world view, (world without end, amen) I absolutely believe that I would have missed this incredible opportunity to do something for my son, for me, and for God, that is a priceless gift, with incredible rewards lasting a lifetime.

If I was a futurist now, I believe I would have purposely brushed aside this unique opportunity to introduce my Son to "God the Father" by showing him God "in his father".

 

[Back To The Future]

Something I have done even before I became a preterist in my beliefs.

Since my kids were born, I have prayed every night for their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids and, well you get the picture.

World without end, AMEN!
Nancy

 

[Ozarkpreterist]

I have one last way that Preterism changes our mindset that I would like to present. First, I want to thank Parousia70, Davo, Acts 6:5, Manifestation, and Back to the future for sharing not only your scriptural knowledge on this matter but also your hearts. This thread has been a very joyous thing for me.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1 through 1 Corinthians 3:4 (NKJV)

Here Paul shows us that the difference between a mature Christian and one who is a yet a babe is the difference between being carnal and being spiritual. The Bible gives us many wonderful pictures of the difference between the carnal and spiritual mind. One of the most interesting is the story of Elisha at Dothan.

Now the king of Syria was making war against Israel; and he consulted with his servants, saying, “My camp will be in such and such a place.” And the man of God sent to the king of Israel, saying, “Beware that you do not pass this place, for the Syrians are coming down there.” Then the king of Israel sent someone to the place of which the man of God had told him. Thus he warned him, and he was watchful there, not just once or twice.
Therefore the heart of the king of Syria was greatly troubled by this thing; and he called his servants and said to them, “Will you not show me which of us is for the king of Israel?”
And one of his servants said, “None, my lord, O king; but Elisha, the prophet who is in Israel, tells the king of Israel the words that you speak in your bedroom.”
So he said, “Go and see where he is, that I may send and get him.”
And it was told him, saying, “Surely he is in Dothan.”
Therefore he sent horses and chariots and a great army there, and they came by night and surrounded the city. And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?”
So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” And Elisha prayed, and said, “LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. So when the Syrians came down to him, Elisha prayed to the LORD, and said, “Strike this people, I pray, with blindness.” And He struck them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.
2 Kings 6:8 through 2 Kings 6:18 (NKJV)

Obviously, Elisha’s servant represents the carnally minded man and Elisha the spiritually minded man. By comparing the two, we can see some differences between the carnal mind and the spiritual.

The servant (Carnal mind) lived by what his eyes saw. If he did not see it with his eyes, it was not there. I am sorry to say that many futurists have this mindset. I don’t know how many times I have heard them say, “Look around you. Can’t you see that the kingdom of God is not here!” This is precisely the problem. We are not to look around us to gauge reality. Rather we are to walk by faith and not by sight (2 Cor 5:7).

Elisha (Spiritual mind) lived by revealed truth. This is what faith is. It is not living by what the eyes see but by what God has revealed in His word. The Bible is a book of revealed truth. Our eyes will rarely agree with its conclusions. John says “For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith I John 5:4).” Who is the one that overcomes in this life? It is the one that lives by revealed truth knowing it is greater than what the eyes see.

The servant (Carnal mind) lived by the reasonings of his own mind. Consequently, all he had was the view from down here—the earthy or natural viewpoint.

Elisha (Spiritual mind) lived by the mind of Christ. This is what it means to be spiritually minded. It is to partake of the mind of Christ. This is every Christian’s inheritance, for we have the mind of Christ (I Cor 2:16). If we walk in this inheritance the Lord will give us the view from above—that is His perspective on the matter. He will reveal to us that His kingdom is a very present reality. The carnal mind cannot see the kingdom of God.

The servant (Carnal mind) could only see the bigness of the enemy. Elisha (Spiritual mind) could only see the bigness of God.

The servant (Carnal mind) lived in fear. To him it looked like the enemy was in control. Is the is not the focus of many so called “end times experts?” They spend much more time boasting in the Devil and telling about how bad things are getting outside the four walls of the church than they do boasting in the Lord. Why? It sells. In other words, it appeals to the carnal mind.

Elisha (Spiritual mind) lived in faith. The spiritually minded person knows that “Jesus is Lord” is a fact that is true in every place and every circumstance. Consequently, he lives in boldness and not fear. He has only one boast. “Jesus is Lord!”

I am sure that you all can add many more insights to these, and I would like to hear them.

Also, I would like to ask if you think that the call to the preterist understanding is also a call to Christian maturity? That is from carnality to spirituality? Perhaps we should be praying like Elisha did. “Oh Lord open their eyes!” We see a New Covenant version of Elisha’s prayer in Ephesians 1:15-23.

Ozark