• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

How politically active are you?

paulewog

Father of Insanity; Child of Music.
Mar 23, 2002
12,930
375
40
USA
Visit site
✟41,438.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
there are places in the states where the unemployment rate is 65-70%, and starvation and malnurishment is a reality here. i have seen it with my own eyes.

Perhaps. I wonder how much is voluntary? Not the starvation part, though indrectly perhaps.

besides, i'm not debating which countries suffer most from starvation, i'm just saying it exists under capitalistic rule, and it's existence is greater then you'd ever imagine.

Of course. There exists no perfect society. However, communism does nothing to help at all. It makes it worse. It's kinda unproductive :)

a rat is a life that was created by god. a life is to be respected. not one ounce of respect lies in the testing of animals to make our lives easier. and that's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Is it? Of course, God created it. God also told us that we have dominion over them. We are greater than animals. Furthermore, it's not just to make lives "easier," it helps save lives. And as Cammie pointed out, God had animals sacrificed.

I EAT animals. That makes life easier for me. And you know what? God is ok with that. :)
 
Upvote 0

two feathers

of the wilderness
Apr 22, 2002
1,157
29
51
A broken world
✟24,326.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally posted by Cammie
If using a rat to save a life is selfish, then so be it. Animals do not have souls. Besides, in the OT, God commanded animals be used as sacrifices...IMO, it's the same thing we're doing now...we're sacrificing animals to save the lives of humans....

no it's not the same thing.

That said, do you take medications? Do you use shampoo/soap/toothpaste and things like that? They're all tested on animals before they are humans....

i don't take medications. and before i buy shampoo, soap, and toothpaste, etc i make sure they are animal test free.

i can't believe how heartless some christians are.
 
Upvote 0

paulewog

Father of Insanity; Child of Music.
Mar 23, 2002
12,930
375
40
USA
Visit site
✟41,438.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
i don't take medications. and before i buy shampoo, soap, and toothpaste, etc i make sure they are animal test free.

Well, at least you practice what you preach. It's kinda weird to have people claim they hate having animals used for anything while they walk around in leather shoes :)

i can't believe how heartless some christians are.

I still don't see how it is different between eating/testing/using. Both kill the animal. Or, for example, tanning a cow hide. That sort of thing. :)

The only difference I can see is that in testing, you're not killing it right away.
 
Upvote 0

caley

Christian Anarchist
Oct 29, 2002
718
12
46
Fargo, ND
Visit site
✟1,081.00
Faith
Protestant
The government should not participate in the following activities:

1) Theft (taxation, eminent domain, property search and seizure)

2) Murder (warfare, death penalty)

3) Disarming of the people's means of self-defense (gun control)

4) Prohibition of substances that are none of its business (drug war)

5) Coercion (pretty much everything the gov't does)

6) Telling people how much they are allowed to pay people for a service (min. wage laws)

7) Regulating transactions (business regulation/taxation)

How's that for anti-socialist/pro-capitalist?

Politically active?  Only until the government goes away.

-Caley, libertarian/anarchist
 
Upvote 0

paulewog

Father of Insanity; Child of Music.
Mar 23, 2002
12,930
375
40
USA
Visit site
✟41,438.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'll comment on a few of these...

2) Murder (warfare, death penalty)

Next time another country invades, what shall we do? =D

3) Disarming of the people's means of self-defense (gun control)

I'm with you there. To a ceratin extent. I do not think we should allow "normal people" to have nuclear weapons :D

4) Prohibition of substances that are none of its business (drug war)

Hehe, it is it's business. It's business is to protect, and people getting high and then driving is very unsafe :rolleyes:

) Coercion (pretty much everything the gov't does)

/me doesn't know what that is

6) Telling people how much they are allowed to pay people for a service (min. wage laws)

I agree.

7) Regulating transactions (business regulation/taxation)

Pretty much agreed. :)

How's that for anti-socialist/pro-capitalist?

A bit extreme. ;)

Politically active? Only until the government goes away.

/me wonders how you can be a capitalist and be anti-government ;) hehe
 
Upvote 0

caley

Christian Anarchist
Oct 29, 2002
718
12
46
Fargo, ND
Visit site
✟1,081.00
Faith
Protestant
Originally posted by paulewog
I'll comment on a few of these...



Next time another country invades, what shall we do? =D

Let me ask you this: How many times has another country invaded?  9/11 doesn't count, because that was a criminal act of murder and should be treated as such; not an act of war.  The fact is that the United States of America is geographically in the perfect position for a libertarian/anarchist state, because we are protected by two vast oceans on either side, with friendly countries to the north and south.  If we have military at all, I think it should be limited to Army Reserves, and Coast Guard.  But beward of our government's wars, most often when they call it a "defensive" war, it is more of an offensive one.


I'm with you there. To a ceratin extent. I do not think we should allow "normal people" to have nuclear weapons :D

Me neither.  I don't think anybody should have nuclear weapons.  They serve no practical purpose and only point out the glaring megalomania of our leaders today.

Hehe, it is it's business. It's business is to protect, and people getting high and then driving is very unsafe :rolleyes:

Then driving while using substances should be outlawed, not the use of the substance itself.  My problem with the drug war is that it assumes that the government owns my body and not me.  I also believe that prohibition laws do far more harm than good.  Did you know that marijuana is 10 times stronger today than it was in 1970?  Do you know why?  Because of government crackdown on its use, people have been cultivating it to have more and more THC.  If it was never illegal, it wouldn't be as dangerous.  Also, the drug war gives the government excuses to pry into our private lives.  The government can search your house, your car, etc. all on hearsay evidence.  If you have a roommate (or a child) who has drugs in your house, the government can confiscate your house, even if you didn't know that the person had the drugs.  It has happened.
 
Upvote 0

caley

Christian Anarchist
Oct 29, 2002
718
12
46
Fargo, ND
Visit site
✟1,081.00
Faith
Protestant
Originally posted by paulewog



/me doesn't know what that is

Coercion is the initiation of force, or using force/violence for any reason other than self defense.


I agree.



Pretty much agreed. :)

good, you've got a lot of sense :cool:


A bit extreme. ;)



/me wonders how you can be a capitalist and be anti-government ;) hehe [/B]

Capitalism is not a government policy; it is an economic system.  I actually am not a fan of the word capitalism really, it's a strawman term that Marx invented so that he could argue against the free market.  There is a school of thought, which I adhere to called anarcho-capitalism or free market anarchism (I much prefer the latter; it's a better description of what we believe).  It's a lot like libertarianism or classical liberalism except it takes the libertarian view to it's logical end.  In case you don't know what the libertarian view is, it's the view that the government makes a mess in everything it does, so the governments functions should be limited to law enforcement, courts, and national defense.  I started as a Republican, moved to libertarian, and now am a free market anarchist (think of it as going further and further to the right).  The free market anarchists say, "If government has made a mess in everything else, why should we trust it with law enforcement, courts, or national defense?"  Free market anarchists believe that those three things can be taken care of by the free market in the form of privately owned, for profit defense companies instead of police, and privately owned courts.  All property would be privately owned, and the jurisdiction of each police department/court would be dependent upon whatever property owner hired them.

Okay, sorry, long post.  But that's basically my political view.
 
Upvote 0

paulewog

Father of Insanity; Child of Music.
Mar 23, 2002
12,930
375
40
USA
Visit site
✟41,438.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Let me ask you this:

Very well. *gives his royal approval* ;) (sorry, I can be really sarcastic sometimes =D)

How many times has another country invaded? 9/11 doesn't count, because that was a criminal act of murder and should be treated as such; not an act of war.

Agreed, it was murder, but it was also a kinda warrish act. I mean, yes it was a murder, but if it takse a war to catch the criminals so they don't do it again.... although, they fight a guerilla warfare =P

The fact is that the United States of America is geographically in the perfect position for a libertarian/anarchist state, because we are protected by two vast oceans on either side, with friendly countries to the north and south. If we have military at all, I think it should be limited to Army Reserves, and Coast Guard. But beward of our government's wars, most often when they call it a "defensive" war, it is more of an offensive one.

Well I'm not gonna argue, because I simply disagree completely. hehe =) If we had little military might, I would assure you we would be "claimed" by Russia, Japan, China, Germany, etc. Or maybe even England again. or France. It's been tried, and I'm sure it'd be tried again. So, go Bush ;)

Me neither. I don't think anybody should have nuclear weapons. They serve no practical purpose and only point out the glaring megalomania of our leaders today.

What's megalomnia? hehe. Something to do with crazay about Bigness? =P And as to nuclear weapons in general, I don't know. It suppose it is inevitable they would be discovered. And now that they are, if we allowed "third world countries" that, um, have a bit different ideas and morals, to gain the upperhand, I'm afraid we'd have some major problems. It seems as though some countries simply don't care much about life in general. Can you imagine what would have happened if Hitler had gotten the Atom Bomb before anyone else? I think we'd all probably be dead.

But anyway, my main point is, since others will not stop producing them (as well as biological weapons)... which we have found from experience .... heh

Then driving while using substances should be outlawed, not the use of the substance itself.

'tis a good point... however, the drugs also make you more apt to do some very stupid things, including murder.

My problem with the drug war is that it assumes that the government owns my body and not me. I also believe that prohibition laws do far more harm than good. Did you know that marijuana is 10 times stronger today than it was in 1970? Do you know why? Because of government crackdown on its use, people have been cultivating it to have more and more THC. If it was never illegal, it wouldn't be as dangerous. Also, the drug war gives the government excuses to pry into our private lives. The government can search your house, your car, etc. all on hearsay evidence. If you have a roommate (or a child) who has drugs in your house, the government can confiscate your house, even if you didn't know that the person had the drugs. It has happened.

If it were not legal, I think we'd have a lot more problems. During the prohibition, crime DID go up... simply because people tried to smuggle it and such. But domestic violence and accidents and all of that went DOWN. Little is said about that. I think the general productivity of the American market... I mean like the whatdoyoucallit, hehe... economic system, you know, it was good. Mind blank, sorry :D

As to prying into our private lives... I am all for smaller government. I would disagree with anarchy, hehe, government is a God instituted thing. But I would say the government is way too big.

And it was never the government's job to provide (i.e., social security, medicare, medicaid, etc).
 
Upvote 0

paulewog

Father of Insanity; Child of Music.
Mar 23, 2002
12,930
375
40
USA
Visit site
✟41,438.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
/me sees some of the sense in Free Market Whatchamacallit...

But, God specifically said in ... hm, Timothy I believe... that government is ordained by God to punish evildoers.

As to a lot of other things, yes, government makes a mess of it. And as we progress more and more, it's making more messes, yet we give it more power. For example, I just read that a jury ordered Phil Somethingorother (some ciggerette company) to pay $28 BILLION to a lady that smoked since she was 17, for 47 YEARS, during which a lot of people tried to get her to stop (including her doctor and daughter)... but she claims it was the tobacco company's fault. That's some serious perverted "justiced" :p However, there are appeals courts, and those types of things.

I think basicaly, it boils down to a philosophy that has crept into our world. "Man is basically good." Thus it's not the lady's fault for smoking, it must be the big bad business (I don't like smoking, it is stupid, but it's not the company's fault if someone smokes, the person made the ultimate decision).

Ok, off that topic and onto capitalism ;) Harry Marx was funny, by the way. He wrote his ideas while he was being supported by the owner of a factory. All the while saying people shouldn't own factories. =D

Anyway, I think private property should be private property. I think the government can own some property, like national parks, or er, the places where it's government buildings are on, hehe. But owning MY house, MY car, MY ... life? No way.

And yes, the government's job is supposed to be for protection... not provision..... which would include anti-crime things.

As to private police type thingies, that wouldn't work well, I don't think.... not to mention that God did not give me personally the authority to fight crime. That was given to government, not me. (I mean, I can work for the government, or the government can work with me, that sort of thing, but if I were to go break into someone's house in order to investigate them, I'd be committing crime ;))
 
Upvote 0

caley

Christian Anarchist
Oct 29, 2002
718
12
46
Fargo, ND
Visit site
✟1,081.00
Faith
Protestant
Define "crime". If crime is defined as "anything one does that aggresses against another," then you do have the authority to fight crime. If someone bursts into your house with a shotgun and tries to rape your daughter, do you have authority to blow his brains out? People have authority and should take initiative for their own self defense. That's all "fighting crime" really boils down to.

If there were a government that managed to successfully limit itself to keeping violent people away from me, and did so without any form of taxation whatsoever, I'd be all for it. Other than that, I have no need for it.
 
Upvote 0

paulewog

Father of Insanity; Child of Music.
Mar 23, 2002
12,930
375
40
USA
Visit site
✟41,438.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I don't mind a little tax for the sake of the police force. But taking my tax money and giving it to abortion clinics is not my kind of tax. :p

As to the authority thing - in that case, that's a self defense thing. Howeverm, to be a private organization that people call on to, more or less, take VEANGENCE ... no, I don't think we have the authority to do that. I can't go deal out justice to someone that committed a crime to me.

Oh, it's very confoozling and I have a headache, LOL. :D

But basically, if you're out to get justice for yourself, that's sorta like veangence. If a third party is involved, that would work, except that you could have another third party that would be all about keeping you from going to the other third party.... and in short I think it'd end up messy.

If anyone cared enough to set up the first third party :rolleyes: :)
 
Upvote 0

caley

Christian Anarchist
Oct 29, 2002
718
12
46
Fargo, ND
Visit site
✟1,081.00
Faith
Protestant
Admittedly, I am not the best at explaining things so that people understand it.  So I am going to call on the help of an anarchist thinker named Bob Murphy.  Here are some articles that explain one alternative to government.

http://www.anti-state.com/murphy/murphy5.html

http://www.anti-state.com/murphy/murphy6.html

http://www.anti-state.com/murphy/murphy7.html

Basically, everything would be ruled by contracts.  If a person committed theft or murder and was not under any contract not to do so, then the punishment for that person would be ostracism from society.

For a view on prisons, check out this article.

http://www.anti-state.com/vroman/vroman6.html

(I also think Robert Vroman's prison vision would work well and benefit all even if we keep the State around.)
 
Upvote 0

paulewog

Father of Insanity; Child of Music.
Mar 23, 2002
12,930
375
40
USA
Visit site
✟41,438.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If a person committed theft or murder and was not under any contract not to do so, then the punishment for that person would be ostracism from society.

Errr..... I think it's kinda nice to have structured punishments. :)
 
Upvote 0

dinkime

Becky's my name, Jesus' my game!
Feb 18, 2002
4,461
226
46
middle america
Visit site
✟28,880.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
i vote in elections.

i am a republican.

i am pro-life.

i have worked polling places before campaigning for my "people", lol, my neighbor paid me to pass out flyers & try to beat out long time dick gebhardt (which i would have done for free!!!)
 
Upvote 0

Kristine

Active Member
Oct 30, 2002
174
1
46
Ottawa, Ontario
Visit site
✟457.00
Faith
Christian
My political views are fairly simple.  Throughout scripture, God consistenly holds the sovereign (king, leader) accountable for the good and evil that is done in their land. 

Since we live in a democratic society where we have a say in who leads and represents us, we have a duty to do our part to make sure good leaders are chosen, to remind them of their duty to do justly, and to continually be salt and light to them if they are not acting in a way that brings honour to God (as I like to put it: 'let our salt keep getting into their pussing, open sores of sin so that they can't just ignore God and His Word without us to remind them.)

That is why I vote.  That is why I write to my members of parliament on important issues; and that is why when I can, I help support a member of a party whose platform is God-honouring, so that he/she gets elected. 

I also vote pro-life first.  (or for the candidate who is least offensive in as much as the push for abortion rights is concerned).   I truly believe that human life is more important than tax cuts and word affairs, and that protecting human life is a leader's first priority.  Everything else, although important, take a back burner.

If all things are equal as far as pro-life candidates are concerned, my second priority is towards a candidate who will pledge to see more money invested in child-care and schools, in homes and support for single moms, and other needy people, and in good programs that take the poor out of shelters and the welfare train, and help them become productive members of society. 

Kristine 
 
Upvote 0

paulewog

Father of Insanity; Child of Music.
Mar 23, 2002
12,930
375
40
USA
Visit site
✟41,438.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Go Pro-life.

I'd never vote for someone that was not pro-life :p Well, if there was no other candidate, that is. If there wasn't a pro-life up for election then I'd have to choose the best one I guess.

Pro-choice/pro-abortion .... bleah.
 
Upvote 0

Kristine

Active Member
Oct 30, 2002
174
1
46
Ottawa, Ontario
Visit site
✟457.00
Faith
Christian
whoohoo!  I like you already. ;)  Too bad you're not a few years older :p 

Most of the 'Christian' guys I know don't care all that much about abortion.  Sure they say they're pro-life... but there's a big difference between being attitudinally pro-life and being actively so.

If someone is 'po-life' but won't do a thing to speak up and defend the unborn, they might as well be pro-choice for all the good they're doing the children.

Good for you Paul! :)

Kristine
 
Upvote 0