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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

How politically active are you?

wildernesse

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Are you politically active? Do you vote?

What issues are important to you, and do you lobby your representatives regarding those issues? How do you work as an advocate for your views?

I'm politically active and I vote. I try very hard to bring my concerns to my representatives' (Congressmen and the President along with other people who might be interested) attention--and mostly I am concerned about human rights and the environment.

--tibac
 

wildernesse

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Ok, so we've got two anti-abortion people. Do you do anything to support your idea? Do people (reps, etc.) know that you are against abortion?

Susan: What do you mean by pro-family? What issues are pro-family?

Paulewog: Do you wish we didn't have Medicare and Medicaid? Public water and utilities? Free lunch and food stamps? How anti-socialist are you? What do you mean by right wing radicalist? What are the positions behind those labels?

This should be fun! :) ;)

--tibac
 
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paulewog

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They know my parents are against abortion, yes... but with our senators right now, erm, well, they aern't exactly pro-life ;)

Paulewog: Do you wish we didn't have Medicare and Medicaid?

Medicare.... not really, I don't really like it I dno't think, but I'm actually not entirely sure what either one is. I know doctors don't like the government funded medical thingies...

Public water and utilities?

Hehe, no, tha'ts not what I meant :)

Free lunch and food stamps?

Free lunch? I kinda don't like the idea. Food stamps? Maybe to truly needy kids....

How anti- socialist are you?

I'm against socialism meaning the government in control of our private lives.

What do you mean by right wing radicalist?

Go up to a liberal and say this: "I support capital punishment, I'm pro-life, the government is too big and spends too much, we should boost our military might, set in motion an ABMS, and cut back on our government funded programs." I think he'll think you're a right wing radical ;)

(it's actually kind of a funny term that I think Rush Limbaugh uses).

About socialism.... the government, I do think, should do things such as public water, public safety, public roads, etc. I do not think it should do some things such as this...

1) Social Security
2) my mind just blanked, doh. Where was I ... oh yeah. Forcing public school (homeschool is EXTREMELY looked down upon in some states)
3) HMO's (I think tha'ts it) and things like that
4) Business restrictions and price caps and such things as that (meddling in private business)
5) .... hopefully you get the general idea, my mind is blanking as to specific things. Basically, I think the government is way too big, and people are depending on the government for like ... everything. :)

This should be fun!

No kidding :D
 
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wildernesse

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Socialism is a system of government where things are collectively or governmentally owned and administered (like public water/utility systems). Socialism doesn't mean that the government intrudes/controls your life or responsibilities--it describes an economic system.

Medicare is the government health care aid to the elderly and Medicaid is goverment health care aid for those in poverty.

Free lunch is public school lunch for kids whose parents are in poverty. Food stamps are only redeemable for food items (not toilet paper, not soap, not beer, not cigarettes) and are given to needy people.

"I support capital punishment, I'm pro-life, the government is too big and spends too much, we should boost our military might, set in motion an ABMS, and cut back on our government funded programs."

Why? To all of these statements.


1) Why not Social Security?

2) The state governments set standards for education and homeschool is allowed in all 50 states. Universal primary and secondary education is a great thing. Why shouldn't the government mandate it?

3) HMO's are private insurance companies--the HMO stands for Health Management Organization--and they are not governmentally funded. The main reasons doctors don't like them is because they limit patient care through paperwork and will not pay for procedures that they deem unimportant. Insurance agents make medical decisions instead of medical personnel in the worst cases. This is captialism at work.


4) So you're for absolute free trade? Why? Can you give me an example of the benefits to the majority of people when captialism is not bounded by any rules?


My point is not that you're wrong, and I'm not saying that you are--even though my ideas are different from yours--but to ask you about the basis of your ideas. What leads you to these conclusions--is the basis of your political thinking sound? We should all try to educate ourselves about the political process and be aware of current issues. The system works best when its citizens are informed and educated. :)

--tibac
 
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paulewog

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About foodstamps: you can *sell* foodstamps, I think I have heard of people doing that.

1) Why not Social Security?

It's not the government's job to do this, first of all. Second of all, it's makign the government get further into debt. Third, it is not eceomically sound... there are more people claiming SS then there are giving to it.

2) The state governments set standards for education and homeschool is allowed in all 50 states. Universal primary and secondary education is a great thing. Why shouldn't the government mandate it?

If they taught it the way they should....

I think public school isn't encessarily a bad idea, but dude, it really needs some shaping up..... :)

3) HMO's are private insurance companies--the HMO stands for Health Management Organization--and they are not governmentally funded. The main reasons doctors don't like them is because they limit patient care through paperwork and will not pay for procedures that they deem unimportant. Insurance agents make medical decisions instead of medical personnel in the worst cases. This is captialism at work.

I don't like the last bit. :D Capitalism to me is where you can own your own business, period. If someone wants to buy from you, fine. If not, fine. That's my oversimplistic idea of capitalism ;)

As opposed to, government setting prices, etc.


4) So you're for absolute free trade? Why? Can you give me an example of the benefits to the majority of people when captialism is not bounded by any rules?

Absolute free trade? Perhaps, yes. I have never seen an extreme case of the claimed problems with capitalism, so I can't really comment on that. I'm not completely against tarriffs and stuff like that, either, but I do think that maybe that should be a state thing, not a federal thing.

In a very short statement ... the government is there to protect, not provide. The way we're going now, we are tending towards communism.

The way the government was set up in the beginning was much better, in my opinion. People were better back then too, they actually took care of their own parents and grandparents :p
 
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wildernesse

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Foodstamps today are not pieces of paper, like they were a few years ago. Now they are on a debit card of sorts, and you use it the same way as a debit card. It is illegal to sell foodstamps, and you could not get more than a $1 back in change when they were paper.


The Constitution says that the government is to promote the general welfare and ensure domestic tranquility.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I think that providing Social Security benefits both provides for the general welfare and ensures domestic tranquility, therefore it is within the government's scope.

Paulewog said:

Second of all, it's makign the government get further into debt.

Social Security is paid for by workers. Our payroll taxes go into a Social Security Trust Fund, and payments are made to beneficiaries from that trust fund. It is separate from other taxes. Social Security is expected to run out in 2038 because it will be paying out more benefits than it is collecting in payroll taxes. This is not government debt--we are not borrowing against anything.


Third, it is not eceomically sound... there are more people claiming SS then there are giving to it.

Where did you get this information? I went to the Social Security website and found out that about 6.7 million people recieved benefits in 2001. While that may sound like a lot of people, keep in mind that the U.S. has a population of 288,265,363 (courtesy of the US Census website). So using a calculator, I found out that last year only about 2.32% of the population received benefits from Social Security. Let's look at the general working population--the ones who are paying into the system (more or less)--and adding up the number of people from 25 to 64 (also from the Census website, the numbers are in the thousands, so append 3 zeros on the end), I found out that the working population is around 143 million. The number of people who received benefits is only around 4.7% of that population. So I can't see how your third point is accurate.


What is wrong with your state's public school system? What are you or your parents doing to change it--they're using your money, after all to finance their school system. How should public education be reformed?

I do think that your definition of capitalism is oversimplified. An example of a problem with capitalism would be environmental problems, or HMO's, or deregulated energy like in California.

The Constitution also allows for Congress to pass duties on trade.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.
Article 1, Section 8 and says that the states are only allowed to tax trade with Congress' consent (except for whas is absolutely neccessary for inspection laws) and that the net gain is to be given to the US Treasury. Article 1, Section 10

I think that the government is clearly not there just to protect us--the preamble of the Constitution that I quoted above lists what the government is about, and there is more than just provide for the common defense in that list.

The way the government was set up in the beginning was much better, in my opinion.

Yeah, slavery and displacing native peoples really rocked! Women knew their place, too. Those were the good old days.

Paulewog, I don't mean to jump on you, but it does help when your position can be supported by information rather than opinion. I really, truly don't care if you disagree with me about whether we should have free trade (or whatever) if you can show me how you reached your conclusions and back up what you say with some information. That's how we get an informed citizenry! Thanks for being such a good sport and talking with me, I really appreciate it. :)

--tibac
 
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wildernesse

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Religious Crisis:

I think that you having been the Regional Director is fantastic! I'm sure that your work in the capitol helped you better understand how your state system works. That's fabulous. :)

Have you done work that supports your political issues outside of a political party?

--tibac
 
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Religious Crisis

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Originally posted by wildernesse
Religious Crisis:
Have you done work that supports your political issues outside of a political party?

What do you mean? I'm sorry I don't understand your question. Do you think that you might be able to restate it for me?
 
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wildernesse

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Sure, I'll try to be more clear.

Take something that you feel strongly about--I'll pick the environment, but for you it might be traditional family values, etc. Of course, I can support the political party that shares my views, but I can work to support my cause through letter-writing on my own or working with another organization to lobby the government as well.

So I guess my question could be: Do you feel strongly about particular issues and work for those causes in other ways than through a political party? (If you don't, that's ok--I'm not trying to say that you should work only for a political party or not with one.  I just wanted to know if you ever had and about those issues! )

I hope that's clearer. :)
--tibac
 
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wildernesse

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You're welcome. :)

Of course, I think we should be as active as we can be regarding issues that we feel strongly about. I know that some Christians feel that Christians shouldn't be part of politics, but I don't think that we can be silent on issues that our faith causes us to feel strongly about simply because those issues can be acted on in the political realm.

I hope that you become more active in issues that you care about--whether it is through involvement with a political party or in a more individualistic manner.

--tibac
 
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IslandBreeze

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I am EXTREMELY conservative, and I vote completely right-wing. I keep up with politics, as well as the news--something I feel necessary to do my part in keeping up with my belief system.

I am pro capital punishment, pro-life (not anti-choice, as nasty liberals would say), pro-guns, pro-hunting, I honestly could care less about the environment. People before animals. If a lab rat will save my life someday, then so be it.

In regards to the Social Security issue...it needs to be done away with; somehow, someway. Yes, a small minority of people are living off of it, but here's the real catch--social security was never, EVER meant to live off of. When it was implemented, it was supposed to SUPPLEMENT income. I work in a bank, and it sickens me at the amount of elderly people we have coming in on the 3rd of every month with their little $800 check, thinking they can honestly live off of it. People need to plan for their retirement, and there is no incentive for that as long as people think they can live off of social security....*deep breath*

I'll stop rambling now.
 
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wildernesse

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I honestly could care less about the environment

Our environment is what sustains human life. I think that this Earth is a gift from God, and that we should treat it with respect and learn how to live so that the ecosystems we live in can be perpetuated. Hunting is a good example of that. Since high-density human populations and large predators don't mix very well, deer no longer have a natural predator. Therefore, hunting quotas are important so that there isn't an overpopulation of deer. Here in Georgia, the number of deer you are allowed to harvest has increased a lot recently because of the overpopulation (and I'm glad because they sure are yummy).

Of course, if there is a way for natural predators to be re-introduced, I think that would be best--but most people (me included!) don't want to live around bears and wolves. :) Nature is just too scary sometimes, I guess.

From your resident nasty liberal,
tibac
 
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paulewog

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I'm not sure who said that, but I think it was me. :D

If it was (it sounds like something I'd say), this is what I meant.

Humans first.

I do not care about the enviroment in that if a bear is about to kill someone, KILL THE BEAR. As opposed to, Oh the poor bear must have been starving, it's not his fault he attacked the hiker, the hiker shoudln't haev been there! :)

We ARE told to take care of this world, though. That was the responsibility given to Adam. It was a lot easier back then ;)

But when people start putting animals in front of humans (which is natural, since of course, they are really our ancestors... (sarcasm) ;)) .... that's messed up :)
 
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wildernesse

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paulewog:

Considering your views on capitalism and environmentalism, how do you feel about factories polluting the water and air?

Do you think that humans should recycle? Do you think that cars should be required to be more fuel-efficient? Do you think that researchers should pursue alternative energy sources? Do you think that genetic modification of crops is a good idea? Do you think that agriculturists should attempt to preserve varietals of crop plants? Do you think that we should try to understand what is depleting the ozone layer?

None of these questions has much to do with putting animals before humans, yet they are all environmental questions. Please tell me how you can answer any environmental questions without putting humans first.

How is preserving or attempting to preserve the planet not putting humans first?

I think that you are confusing animal rights with environmental concerns.

--tibac
 
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