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How old is the universe????

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Maccie

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OK, I'll try again!

Scientists say they know the age of the universe. There are 20 million galaxies, apparently, but even so, about 75% of the universe is 'dark matter'. You can read all about it here:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/scie...1497195,00.html

YEC's - how old is the universe? Not the earth, been there, done that and got a whole wardrobe of T-shirts!


TE's - ditto. And if there are 20 million galaxies, what are the chances of God creating intelligent life on another planetary system?

Now, do you think we could all discuss this without getting into the evolution/atheist/creationist debate? Could we just try?
 

Delta One

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Maccie,

The link you used is: <http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/scie...1497195,00.html>

Unfortunatley, the link didn't go to the page because I wasn't allowed to get to it. You must have to register/subscibe to view it. Christian creationists also doubt the existence of dark matter as there is no scientific evidence for its existence and more importantly, there is no Biblical proof to imply that it exists. Its very existance is based on atheists trying to save their theory and their faith (many don't like the fact that the big bang has an origin, because they dislike the corollary that everything which has a beginning must have a cause) by postulating an eternally oscillating universe. If I keep on going I'll say something that the TEs most likely, and since you requested no debate, I'll just supply a link that you may wish to check out titled No Dark Matter Found in the Milky Way Galaxy: <http://answersingenesis.org/tj/v13/i1/milky_way.asp>.

YEC's - how old is the universe? Not the earth, been there, done that and got a whole wardrobe of T-shirts!

When you say 'universe' to what do you refer? There is no such 'object' as 'the universe' considering its very definition: the universe is everything that exists (DEF 1a); or to put it more scientifically: all matter and energy, including Earth, the galaxies, and all the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole is the universe (DEF 1b). According to the Bible the Earth is about 6,000 years old and that was made on day one of the creation week, so by definition, the 'universe' must be around 6,000 years old.

Also, some Christians (including many SDAs according to one of my college lecturers who is a SDA and shares this belief) claim that the 'stuff' that God used to create everything was lying around for billions of years, hence making the 'universe' old.

If you're inclined to argue the following, feel free to PM me or email me. Exodus 20:11 is a clear refutation of this idea as it says for in six days the LORD made the heavens (refering to space - not the atmosphere/sky in this case - contrast with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth" from Genesis 1:1) the Earth, the sea and all that in them. In other words, God made everything in six days, so by definition DEF 1a, God made the whole universe in six days about 6,000 years ago (as dated by the genealogies). Also notice that Exodus 20:11 means exactly the same as DEF 1b in essentially the same wording! As such, the matter could not have existed for billions of years before God molded it into everything as we observe it today.

Therefore, the whole universe was created in six days about 6,000 years ago.
 
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shernren

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Well, Delta One, looks like another square-off ... :)

This one should be free-accessible:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4600981.stm

And I would advise you not to make ill-researched statements. Dark matter as we have confirmed so far has little or nothing to do with the Big Bang. It has nothing to do with aging the universe or making white-hole cosmology invalid. Dark matter is scientists' way of figuring out what keeps galaxies together and spurs their formation. It is basically matter that doesn't reflect light, and while some theories make dark matter out of weird subatomic particles, there are equally credible theories using MACHOs - Massive Compact Halo Objects - which would be unlit protostars like Jupiter, dust clouds or even primordial black holes.

I'd bet even Dr. Russell Humphreys believes in dark matter. He certainly didn't say anything about debunking it in Starlight and Time.

And you have to show scientific proof that the universe is between 1-4 days older than the earth if you don't want to just surrender and say "Goddidit science is too stupid to know how..."
 
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shernren

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Delta One

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shernren,

Well, Delta One, looks like another square-off ... :)

Hmm, I knew I should have stopped further up the message... :sigh: Have you ever read any Mad comic books? Well, this is starting to look awefully like the Spy Vs Spy comic that they have in every edition. lol it's funny.

This one should be free-accessible:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4600981.stm

And I would advise you not to make ill-researched statements. Dark matter as we have confirmed so far has little or nothing to do with the Big Bang.

The amount of dark matter (it's very existence) will determine, according to big bang theory, what happens to the universe at the end of it's life, as the article explained in the first paragraph of the link I sent you in my previous message.

Nothing to do with the big bang??!? Have you read the article from that link you posted? The article has 'evolution' almost every second word (please don't start taking things literally now! ;) ). Read the following:

The international team of scientists known as the Virgo Consortium looked at how the Universe evolved under the influence of the mysterious material called dark matter.

To me it sounds like this dark matter was the main factor of the big bang and that it heavily influenced the universe's formation and so-called 'evolution'.

Thanks for the link - it worked! <shocked> While I'm really not one for the Bible Bashing Co., I read their article and from the look of things, they've confirmed the existence 'some dark matter' if you take "... shed more light on the Universe's elusive dark energy field" figuratively and having a completely different meaning.

It has nothing to do with aging the universe or making white-hole cosmology invalid.

And I said it did, where? ........................

Dark matter is scientists' way of figuring out what keeps galaxies together and spurs their formation.

...which by definition is apart of the big bang theory (i.e. formation of galaxies).

I'd bet even Dr. Russell Humphreys believes in dark matter. He certainly didn't say anything about debunking it in Starlight and Time.

So true. Well, lets say that dark matter's existence is not needed - to my knowledge - in the creationary theory for explainatory purposes.

And you have to show scientific proof that the universe is between 1-4 days older than the earth if you don't want to just surrender and say "Goddidit science is too stupid to know how..."

Meh? I said that the universe was created on day one with the Earth... How can you prove such an event anyway?? Remember that we can't observe it, nor can history be repeated.The amount and type of experiments that we can perform that relate to the creationary week miracles are extremely limited. We can have a guess as to how God made everything using the information that He has provided us in Genesis 1, Dr Humphreys' relativistic cosmolgy is a prime example of this.
 
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TheBear

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Maccie said:
OK, I'll try again!

Scientists say they know the age of the universe. There are 20 million galaxies, apparently, but even so, about 75% of the universe is 'dark matter'. You can read all about it here:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/scie...1497195,00.html

YEC's - how old is the universe? Not the earth, been there, done that and got a whole wardrobe of T-shirts!


TE's - ditto. And if there are 20 million galaxies, what are the chances of God creating intelligent life on another planetary system?

Now, do you think we could all discuss this without getting into the evolution/atheist/creationist debate? Could we just try?

Hey, good topic. :)

Based on current estimates, with corroborating findings in various scientific areas of research, the estimate is between 12 to 18 billion years. That of course, could be overturned if new data revealed a much older, or a much younger universe. But no data at this time, falsifies this estimate. :)
 
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shernren

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I may have been overreacting to AiG. Maybe it's allergic ... :p Well I said dark matter has little or nothing to do with the Big Bang. I'm more aware of its role in galactic clusters. When I made those "white hole ... aging the universe" statements I wasn't saying that you'd said such things. I was just being defensive because who knows, you might just say "it's only necessary because of the Copernican hypothesis" or something similarly creation-science-y.

Dark matter - matter that we can't observe with light for various reasons. Holds galactic clusters together.
Dark energy - energy that we just don't understand. Causes/caused inflation of universe.

I'm curious - how do the galaxies hold together within creationist scientific theory?

And galactic evolution has nothing to do with biological evolution!!!!!
 
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Maccie

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Sorry about the link! Shernren's works - same article. Find it here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4600981.stm good pics, too!

How about finding intelligent life somewhere among the 20 million galaxies? On balance, I think there could be. I wonder how God revealed himself to them?
 
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shernren

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I would doubt if God would allow life to emerge elsewhere, or if He would allow it to grow to sentience. There would be the massive theological problem of how God would be incarnated into a different species, and the relationship this would have with the redemptive work He has already carried out for Homo Sapiens.
 
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Ellethidhren

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He made the entire universe and everything in it in six days. He made Adam and Eve as full grown adults, and He turned water into aged wine.
The geneology from Adam to Jesus is in the Bible. The universe is about seven or eight thousand years old.

Any mathematically inclined Bible scholars out there willing to approximate from Adam to Jesus and Jesus to now?

What makes me laugh are all the front cover stories in the magazines, and TV also, about how scientists are still trying to figure out :scratch: how the universe came into existence. Same old, same old :yawn: boring stuff. :sleep:

We walk by faith, not by sight. I believe Genesis 1:1
 
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Delta One

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Maccie,

Does it sound like a loving and just God to punish them for Adam's sin, i.e. for something that they never did wrong or had no knowledge of? Paul and Isaiah tell us that the whole creation is groaning and travailing in pain because of sin...

For once I agree with shrenern that there is no life out there other than us. The characteristics that we generally ascribe to God, i.e. love, mercy, just, also support this claim along with verses like that of which Isaiah and Paul use. The whole idea about life being out there is once again not Biblical.
 
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shernren

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Bishop Ussher has already made the calculations way back in 1658. According to him the world was created on Sunday, 23rd October, 4004 BC, making the world almost exactly 6008 years old.

Don't let AiG fool you into believing that the world is 10000 years old instead! XD

[/sarcasm off] What do you think about the scientific evidence? ... curious as to your opinion. There are Christian scientists out there who support an old earth and old universe, what do you think?
 
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Delta One

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Hi shernren,

Thinking one step ahead of your opposition? I like that and in games like chess or LAN games it's very important to your survival that you do. And no, I would say no such comments.

I'm curious - how do the galaxies hold together within creationist scientific theory?

Good question, I've got no idea but then again, I'm not educated in such areas. I suggest that you ask AiG what they believe. I might as well. IMO, perhaps gravity? I'm really not to sure as I've never read about it before. In fact, I've never heard anyone, either creationist or evolutionist, mention it... :blush: Sorry, when I get back in a few weeks time after my exams I'll see what we've got.

And galactic evolution has nothing to do with biological evolution!!!!!

It seems like you're suffering from paranoia than anything else :p , because I never made a connection between evolution of the universe and biological evolution.
 
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Maccie

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ellisthidhren said:
He made the entire universe and everything in it in six days. He made Adam and Eve as full grown adults, and He turned water into aged wine.
The geneology from Adam to Jesus is in the Bible. The universe is about seven or eight thousand years old.

So how do you account for the fact that many galaxies are billions of light years away? Even the Milky Way is 16 million light years across.
 
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Delta One

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Maccie,

So how do you account for the fact that many galaxies are billions of light years away? Even the Milky Way is 16 million light years across.

Dr Humphreys' relatvistic cosmology appears to answer most of the evidence. That said, like all man made theories, this is fallible and subject to change as new research and evidence come to light. Even if proven incorrect, Dr Humphreys has given creationists a path to answer such questions.

For a very quick and brief run down see the following information from Seven Years of Starlight and Time <http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-338.htm>.

Dr Humphreys considers, 'What would if there were a centre of the universe?'

In contrast to the big bang story, the Scriptural record appears to imply that the universe is in fact, an island universe. Appendix B of Starlight and Time shows Biblical evidence that (a) the cosmos has a unique center and a boundary for its matter, beyond which there is at least some empty space; and (b) on a cosmic scale of distances, the earth is near the center.
A finite cosmos with a center of gravity is quite different from the nonbounded universe the big bang depicts. In the big bang theory, if you could travel from our galaxy to a neighboring one, you would go gravitationally "up" for the first half of the journey and then gravitationally "down" for the next half. Going further outward would continue the ups and downs, but they would average out to about zero. On a large scale, such a universe would have no part which would be significantly higher (gravitationally) than any other part.

But in a creationist cosmos having a center of gravity, if you were to travel outward from the center you would, on the average, go steadily "upward" in a gravitational sense. On a large scale, the heavens would be at a higher gravitational "altitude" than the earth. As Isaiah 55:9 says: "For as the heavens are higher than the earth . . ."

A center of gravity is important because an effect in general relativity called gravitational time dilation comes into play. Experiment and Einstein's theory agree that time and all physical processes run more slowly in areas which are lower in a gravitational field than in areas which are higher.

The effect is very small normally, but it turns out that when the expanding universe was at a critical size (about fifty times smaller than it is now), gravitational time dilation would have been very important. My theory proposes that the cosmos was at that critical size during the fourth day of Creation Week. While one ordinary day was elapsing on earth, billions of years worth of physical processes were taking place in distant parts of the universe. This allows starlight from even the most distant star to arrive during or soon after the fourth day, the same day God created all the stars. During that day, most of the expansion of the cosmos would have taken place.

The bottom line is that relativity forces us to say by whose clocks we specify the age of the cosmos or the timing of events within that cosmos. My book points out that the Bible gives us time in terms of the "earth's frame of reference, not some other frame." Scripture says, and my theory agrees, that the universe is young as measured by clocks on earth.

Also, light-travel time isn't only a problem just for creationists, but big bang also has a light-travel time problem as described in Light-Travel Time: A Problem for the Big Bang <http://answersingenesis.org/creation/v25/i4/lighttravel.asp#f8> which is where the information below came from just to save you the time and effort of going to the site.

The temperature of the CMB (Cosmic Microwave Background radiation) is essentially the same everywhere—in all directions (to a precision of 1 part in 100,000). However (according to big bang theorists), in the early universe, the temperature of the CMB would have been very different at different places in space due to the random nature of the initial conditions. These different regions could come to the same temperature if they were in close contact. More distant regions would come to equilibrium by exchanging radiation (i.e. light). The radiation would carry energy from warmer regions to cooler ones until they had the same temperature.

The problem is this: even assuming the big bang timescale, there has not been enough time for light to travel between widely separated regions of space. So, how can the different regions of the current CMB have such precisely uniform temperatures if they have never communicated with each other? This is a light-travel–time problem.

The big bang model assumes that the universe is many billions of years old. While this timescale is sufficient for light to travel from distant galaxies to earth, it does not provide enough time for light to travel from one side of the visible universe to the other. At the time the light was emitted, supposedly 300,000 years after the big bang, space already had a uniform temperature over a range at least ten times larger than the distance that light could have travelled (called the ‘horizon’). So, how can these regions look the same, i.e. have the same temperature? How can one side of the visible universe ‘know’ about the other side if there has not been enough time for the information to be exchanged? This is called the ‘horizon problem’. Secular astronomers have proposed many possible solutions to it, but no satisfactory one has emerged to date (inflation hasn't answered many important questions as to how it could start and a method of 'turning it off' once started. There also isn't any consensus of which one, if any, is correct; many inflation models are known to be wrong - as they make predictions that are not consistent with observations).

In conclusion, the big bang requires that opposite regions of the visible universe must have exchanged energy by radiation, since these regions of space look the same in CMB maps. But there has not been enough time for light to travel this distance. Both biblical creationists and big bang supporters have proposed a variety of possible solutions to light-travel–time difficulties in their respective models. So big-bangers should not criticize creationists for hypothesizing potential solutions, since they do the same thing with their own model. The horizon problem remains a serious difficulty for big bang supporters, as evidenced by their many competing conjectures that attempt to solve it. Therefore, it is inconsistent for supporters of the big bang model to use light-travel time as an argument against biblical creation, since their own notion has an equivalent problem.
 
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artybloke

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shernren said:
I would doubt if God would allow life to emerge elsewhere, or if He would allow it to grow to sentience. There would be the massive theological problem...

...more work for the theologians then... maybe God doesn't want theologians to be put out of a job... ;)
 
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