Forgive me for not answering your question. I was replying quickly and made little effort to reply to all remarks. To answer your question, no a person does not pass a test if a person continues hating their brother after being saved. But you have to be careful here with judging a persons heart by their outward actions. Only God knows a persons heart and how long it might take to change their lifestyle. While there may be a lot of subtle changes in a person, and occasionally big noticeable changes, the work God does with you is a lifetime. And some change quicker or slower than others.
Exactly. Salvation takes a lifetime to battle and overcome sin. I was referring to those who could care less about removing sin from their hearts. If a person is genuine about following Jesus, he will do what Jesus commands us.
Not doing what Jesus commands us will leave us lethargic and apathetic about sin in our lives. Even though most people know sin is powerful and lethal, they have no interest in overcoming it. They had just rather live they way they have done all their lives. There is a delight within us to keep sinning. But as Jesus said, cleanse the inside of the cup that the outside may be clean also.
John in your situation might be assuming things that could be wrong. John could be missing what God might be seeing, which could be God working in Bill's heart to repent of his hatred. Again, God has to work more with others to see a noticeable lifestyle change. Be careful not to judge what you aren't sure of.
I was speaking of 1 John. I don't think John was speaking to one person, but rather those who kindle a hatred of the brethren in their hearts. It's not difficult to know the ones who refuse to listen to Jesus and obey the truth He told us. So many people are 'scared of working', that they stay in their sin and let it rule over them.
What you are arguing is a salvation by works ideology. Which if you believe in that, that is a whole other discussion we can have. Which of course, I am going to argue is not biblical. The bible is very strong on "works is proof of salvation", not "works is required for salvation".
I know what Jesus told us, and no matter what others think, He did tell us plenty about works. I call these works of charity, and not works of the rituals of the law. I don't believe in keeping rituals to be saved.
The ten commandments are not rituals, but rather, works of repentance and charity.
You have to look at what human nature is, which is inherently to do evil. If you expect someone who inherently enjoys doing evil to stop doing evil before they receive salvation, then I am screwed, you're screwed, and human kind is screwed.
As I said, salvation is a lifelong endeavor. If a person's heart is truly in love with Jesus, then he has no argument with doing what He said. Yes, it may take a while, but his heart is right. He may fail many times, but with Jesus at his side, he gets right back up and continues to battle sin.
And to cover your last paragraph, you are putting words in my mouth. You are distorting what I said to fit your ideology. I never once AND never will say that Jesus said to believe and keep on living like you want. Many people who believe in the "salvation by works" idea always do this manipulation against people who believe what I do.
Sorry, I had no intention of distorting what you believe. There are many, even on this board, who will argue with you until they turn blue in the face, saying it matters not how you live.
So I will try to go over it again, trying to be more clear. Forgive me, for I am not the best with words. This is what I believe. We as humans, are fallen, and lustful for sin. You, me, and everyone in our human bodies will live in sin for the rest of our earthly lives, since that is what we desire. My question is, how can someone repent and stop sinning when we are inherently evil creatures? The answer is, we can't! We can work on trying not to show our sin, and infact become really good at it. But our hearts will still be the same.
Man is total evil, and without God's intervention, man would fall headlong into hell. From our father, we have the propensity, that is, the inclination and tendency to sin. It is when we actually decide to give in to sin, that we make it our own. If man knew how God's providence is working in our lives, he would be amazed.
Man does not see God's providence in action. If he did, he would rebel against it, despise it, and even deny God. When we go through life's temptations and troubles, we often wonder where is God. I can say that is when He is the closest.
He may see it after the fact. Many times, I have gone through some strenuous trials and temptations, not knowing what was happening, and wondering where was God in all this. However, I have often seen His hand and leading in these temptations after I've been through them. I can see why I went through them and how He was leading me to where I am today.
Actually, a man who battles and overcomes sin can stop sinning. I'm not talking about battling every sin within us at one time. I know in men, the lust of adultery is strong. However, many men have battled this sin and overcome it.
Here lies the solution: Our hearts must be renewed. We must die of our old selves and become new. And the only way for that to happen is to be baptized in the baptism of Jesus, to believe on Him and what He did for us, and to repent.
Exactly. Jesus told us to take up our cross daily. It's not a one-time effort; it is daily. Crosses are for one thing only, and it's not to hang around our necks, nor put upon our walls. It sole purpose is death. Jesus said it is OUR cross and we must take it up daily.
Here is the problem with your ideology: How can someone stop doing what they are naturally intended to do? You need an outsider to change us. To bring verses into this:
Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV:
"8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
I never said anything about going about it on our own. If Jesus wasn't involved, it would totally useless to try on our own.
Let me add to the above verses. It is not only by grace that we are saved. We are also saved by truth, love, wisdom, light, mercy, compassion, and good. Jesus is so much more than just grace.
Again, I believe Paul is talking about the ritual works of the law. And no, I do not believe in keeping those for salvation.
Saying that you have to do something (love your brother) is saying that you personally did something to be saved. If that is the case, then you best be genuinely following all the commandments, or else you aren't saved. You can't just follow one command to be saved, you have to follow them all. And good luck with that, I know I would absolutely fail.
Above, I spoke of not being able to rid ourselves of every sin at once. Why should a person try to obey every commandment at once? In the commandments, we have idolatry, hate, adultery, theft, lying, and covetousness all mentioned. There is no way a man can overcome all these at once. He must battle and overcome as the Lord leads.
Those who say we must keep all the commandments at once is putting a burden upon a man. I've have known the Lord for over 50 years. He is still working and leading me to come into a holy life. I have many more things to battle and overcome. I could never overcome anything without a genuine love for Him, His Word, and my neighbor.