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How Mutations Accumulate

Subduction Zone

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....all that in 50 MY's. WOW!!!! Parallel beneficial mutations...

Oh the claims of the evo-crowd.

Now, if you don't understand that so-called beneficial mutations MUST add to a previous change to allow for your "short" list of proto-dolphin changes...I can understand why you are having problem and can't move away from your coloring book evolutionism.


Why do you think that multiple organs could not adapt at the same time? There is no reason to think otherwise. A change that helped breathing, such as the nostrils moving back in a whale, would not interfere with other changes such as changes in the limbs. It seems that you are not allowing yourself to understand a very simple concept.
 
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-57

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Why do you think that multiple organs could not adapt at the same time? There is no reason to think otherwise. A change that helped breathing, such as the nostrils moving back in a whale, would not interfere with other changes such as changes in the limbs. It seems that you are not allowing yourself to understand a very simple concept.

Yes, the evo-theory would need multiple organs to evolve at the same time. Basically a feeding frenzy of so-called beneficial mutations.

When you can demonstrate that there is enough so-called beneficial mutations...each one occurring in the proper DNA...through out the evolving animal progeny....get back to me. Otherwise all you have is "opinion" ...unsupported opinion. Coloring book opinion.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Yes, the evo-theory would need multiple organs to evolve at the same time. Basically a feeding frenzy of so-called beneficial mutations.

And we have shown that more than enough beneficial mutations would occur. Evolution does not work one organ at a time. There is more than enough time for the observed evolution to occur. It seems that once again you have not been following along.

When you can demonstrate that there is enough so-called beneficial mutations...each one occurring in the proper DNA...through out the evolving animal progeny....get back to me. Otherwise all you have is "opinion" ...unsupported opinion. Coloring book opinion.

There is no "proper DNA". Now you are simply showing that you do not understand how evolution works. You are assuming that there is a goal when there is not. And no, we have much more than opinion. We have independent facts strongly supporting a coherent theory. You are the one with nothing but a superstitious belief in a book written by bronze age shepherds. You really need to work on your concept of the "burden of proof". You are not being a reasonable person. That is why your arguments are so easily refuted.
 
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Papias

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....all that in 50 MY's. WOW!!!! Parallel beneficial mutations...
.

Are you not aware that 50 million years is a long time? That's like going back to the time of Jesus, and then that far again, and again, 25,000 times! It's a lot more time than needed, in fact. As the data already posted shows, beneficial mutations aren't hard to come by, even in a much smaller time.

heck, we've seen lizards evolve new organ structures in just decades - less than a millionth of the time we are talking about here. Not sure what you are having a problem with, aside from obstinancy.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

In Christ-

Papias
 
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Subduction Zone

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Are you not aware that 50 million years is a long time? That's like going back to the time of Jesus, and then that far again, and again, 25,000 times! It's a lot more time than needed, in fact. As the data already posted shows, beneficial mutations aren't hard to come by, even in a much smaller time.

heck, we've seen lizards evolve new organ structures in just decades - less than a millionth of the time we are talking about here. Not sure what you are having a problem with, aside from obstinancy.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

In Christ-

Papias
Thank you for continuing to show that one does not need to deny science to be a Christian. Seriously I think that science deniers do far more harm to Christianity than any atheist ever could.
 
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sfs

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When you can demonstrate that there is enough so-called beneficial mutations...each one occurring in the proper DNA...
Once you've determined that the mutation is beneficial, how could it not be occurring in the proper DNA? What does this even mean?
through out the evolving animal progeny
Where else would a beneficial mutation in an animal be, but in that animal's progeny? Again, I can't even figure out what your objections are supposed to mean.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Once you've determined that the mutation is beneficial, how could it not be occurring in the proper DNA? What does this even mean?

Where else would a beneficial mutation in an animal be, but in that animal's progeny? Again, I can't even figure out what your objections are supposed to mean.


He seems to think that there is a goal in evolution. In other words a creature cannot fly unless the "right mutations" occur, where in reality the creatures just continually adapted to a changing environment with new changes adding to old changes. If you think of humans as a "goal" of evolution of course it is all but impossible. Creationists can't seem to realize that we are but the results of evolution. They always demand to see something evolve into something else as if it were a planned event.
 
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-57

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Are you not aware that 50 million years is a long time? That's like going back to the time of Jesus, and then that far again, and again, 25,000 times! It's a lot more time than needed, in fact. As the data already posted shows, beneficial mutations aren't hard to come by, even in a much smaller time.

heck, we've seen lizards evolve new organ structures in just decades - less than a millionth of the time we are talking about here. Not sure what you are having a problem with, aside from obstinancy.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

In Christ-

Papias

There's a little problem with your lizard evolution...You gotta do better.

But Answers in Genesis anatomist David Menton, after reviewing the research, noted that the original lizards did have the ability to digest plant material; they simply preferred insects for roughly 95 percent of their dietary needs. (This is also in line with the Bible’s teaching that all animals were originally vegetarian—which would mean these lizards’ ancestors, at least, had the capability to digest plants, and that genetic information could exist latently in the modern lizards.)
Furthermore, Menton adds, “The ‘new’ muscular valve they found between the small and large intestine is simply an enlargement of muscles already present in the gut wall at this juncture.” In other words, far from being a truly new feature, the shift in available food allowed lizards with larger muscles at the juncture to be more successful at feeding and reproducing.

Full article.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Yes, the evo-theory would need multiple organs to evolve at the same time. Basically a feeding frenzy of so-called beneficial mutations.

When you can demonstrate that there is enough so-called beneficial mutations...each one occurring in the proper DNA...through out the evolving animal progeny....get back to me. Otherwise all you have is "opinion" ...unsupported opinion. Coloring book opinion.
I have already explained to you that placement of genes is not nearly as relevant as you seem to think it is. A gene on an X chromosome transposed to chromosome 2 would still do the same thing. In fact, chromosomes have been seen to split and merge together within our lifetime. The form of Down Syndrome that runs in families is a great example; the parents are unaffected by their chromosomes being different, but a portion of their kids are carriers and another portion have symptoms.

this is a balanced translocation carrier, note the fact that they appear to have just 1 chromosome 21, but in fact, the second one has merged with one of the chromosome 14's and made it larger. This individual has no outward signs of this translocation, despite an entire chromosome's worth of genes being moved and merged with another chromosome. This is a male, in case you can't tell. http://cai.md.chula.ac.th/lesson/down_syndrome/contents/a21.jpg

a normal male karyotype, for reference http://worms.zoology.wisc.edu/zooweb/Phelps/ZWK99010k.jpeg

Male with Down Syndrome karyotype, for reference http://worms.zoology.wisc.edu/zooweb/Phelps/ZWK99024k.jpeg

Location of mutations, if they are introducing new genes rather than changing existing ones, is only relevant if on the X or Y chromosomes, as it affects inheritance patterns.
 
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Hoghead1

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Look, -57, why waste time on a mediocre plagiarist such as Menton? Much of his material centers on teh argument that evolution cannot be a completely random process. Of course, evolutionary thinkers never said that it was completely random. But that is not exactly my point. My point is that he feels he is making some sort of original contribution by arguing that where there is complex order, there has to be an ordering mind. All he is doing is presenting a very mediocre job of plagiarizing a major philosophical argument for God that more than one major philosopher has stated far more completely and eloquently than has Mention. If this argument appeals to you, then you might want to read the writings of the famous American philosopher-theologian Charles Hartshorne (1897-2000). He can really make this sing in ways Menton can't even imagine. Also, major philosophers such as Hartshorne are far better in dealing with sticky pints that can be easily introjection by skeptics, all of which Menton fails to address. Suppose matter isn't passive, inert, dead, suppose all of matter has a mind, suppose all entities, in all their aspects consist exclusively of souls, then do we really need a God still? Hartshorne is a panpsychist and can really address that objection or at least provide sufficient argumentation to easily overcome it. What about the fact there is definitely chaos, chance, randomness, and indeterminacy in the universe? Certainly, as Hume argued, that would discredit a designing mind or God, a skeptic may well argue. Again, major philosophers such as Hartshorne have addressed that issue. Science sees no purpose in the universe, so why bother with a God? Again, major philosophers have answered that objection, especially Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947). Isn't order nothing more than a purely human projection onto nature, as there is absolutely no sensory experience of causality, hence absolutely no scientific proof for causality, as again Hume so aptly argued? Again, major philosophers such as Whitehead have provided a solid answer here. Why not save a step? If you accept that God is an organized entity and not in any way created, why not just stop and say scientific laws are just there and were created by nothing? Again, major philosophers such as Whitehead have addressed that one. What about the fact that there are very few arguments you can't wiggle out of if you try hard enough? Who says you can't wiggle out of this proof for God if you try hard enough, and if you accept that, then what? Haven't you got any other arguments for God? Again, major philosophers such as Hartshorne have addressed that objection. See, proofs for the existence of God are a very sticky business that require loads of careful philosophical thought in order to even begin to offer satisfying results. So you need to bring in the biggies here. Hartshorne, for example, has been called one of the most God-intoxicated philosophers of all time, as well as the Einstein of contemporary religious thought. Furthermore, that is nothing incomparable about affirming God and evolution. For example, I have argued that creation is God's own self-evolution from unconsciousness and mere potentiality into self-consciousness and self-actualization. I have also pointed out the Christian mystical tradition introduced a similar idea. I have also argued that the reluctance among many to accept evolution is based on a false model of God, the classical or traditional Christian model, which was based essentially on Hellenic philosophy and which wrongly argued that God cannot change. In short, God doesn't change, so neither we or the universe. Evolution, then, is absolutely out of the question. However, as I said, I and many other contemporary theologians have argued that is a false model of God. I can go into details here, if that is what you want. I am just giving the general jist for now. Bottom line: There are plenty of far more solid sources to rely on than Menton.
 
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Subduction Zone

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There's a little problem with your lizard evolution...You gotta do better.

But Answers in Genesis anatomist David Menton, after reviewing the research, noted that the original lizards did have the ability to digest plant material; they simply preferred insects for roughly 95 percent of their dietary needs. (This is also in line with the Bible’s teaching that all animals were originally vegetarian—which would mean these lizards’ ancestors, at least, had the capability to digest plants, and that genetic information could exist latently in the modern lizards.)
Furthermore, Menton adds, “The ‘new’ muscular valve they found between the small and large intestine is simply an enlargement of muscles already present in the gut wall at this juncture.” In other words, far from being a truly new feature, the shift in available food allowed lizards with larger muscles at the juncture to be more successful at feeding and reproducing.

Full article.
Again, you need to find valid sources. Not sources where they tell their workers that they cannot use the scientific method. All that work at your creationist sites are people that are failures at best in the science that they attack. I would ask you if you could support your claims with valid sources but I know that you can't.

ETA: Also that is how new organs and body parts evolve quite often. An existing body part is evolves to perform a new function.
 
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Hoghead1

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Fair request, Psychosarah. I made a note to do just that. Problem I have been working on. My mind works extremely fast and so I write extremely fast and talk extremely fast. Everyone is always on me about that. I've been trying to slow down. I guess I'll have to do better.
 
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The Cadet

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When mutations take place, however, there is an exchange of information or misinformation, but never an increase. The system is limited to what it has and therefore cannot create new codes.

This is fundamentally wrong. Let me show you why.

Take the following genetic string:

CAGT

Now, imagine that the extremely common mutation of gene duplication is applied to it. Now you have:

CAGTCAGT

Then, a similarly common point mutation is applied:

CAGTCAAT

In what universe did this not produce an increase in "information"? The old genetic information is still there, but the mutation also produced a new genetic string, CAAT, in addition to the old one. And remember, not only do individual genes get duplicated, but also entire genomes. So if we want to claim that producing new functions requires an increase in information, we cannot then claim that increasing information requires intelligence, because it happens naturally all the time.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Evolutionism would be like dealing yourself a bridge hand....then shuffling the deck and dealing yourself another bridge hand with just one card changing..making the hand better. Then you have to do it again, and again...

No. See, in evolution, there are these things called natural selection and inheritability of traits.

But I understand that you need to pretend as if those aren't real.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Yes, the evo-theory would need multiple organs to evolve at the same time. Basically a feeding frenzy of so-called beneficial mutations.

Are you one of those people who thinks that "if evolution is true, then at one point we would have only half a stomach"?

As in, that there should be "incomplete" animals and stuff?

It sure sounds like it.

When you can demonstrate that there is enough so-called beneficial mutations...each one occurring in the proper DNA


Again, you keep making this mistake....

There is no "proper", unless you have a specific end-goal in mind.
Evolution has no specific end-goal in mind.

Get it into your skull. Seriously.


...through out the evolving animal progeny....get back to me. Otherwise all you have is "opinion" ...unsupported opinion. Coloring book opinion.

All you have is ignorance on a subject you insist on arguing against, for no other reason then you thinking it conflicts with a priori religious beliefs.
 
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-57

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I have already explained to you that placement of genes is not nearly as relevant as you seem to think it is.

It's more than the placement of the gene....it's also about effecting a gene in a particular way.....via a random process.
 
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-57

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No. See, in evolution, there are these things called natural selection and inheritability of traits.

But I understand that you need to pretend as if those aren't real.

Why do you start n the middle? With the "inheritability of traits"? Where did they come from?
 
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