How much wood of the True Cross was there?

[Quid est Veritas?]

Many of the genuine relics from the Holy Land weren't actually obtained during the Middle Ages. When the Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity, his mother (whose name escapes me at the moment), made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and is said (according to records) to have collected hundreds of artifacts associated with Christ and the Apostles.

If anything is to be said about the ancient Romans, they were among other things fastidious record keepers and historians.. This puts the initial collection of holy relics having occurred around 200 AD, not during the Middle Ages. Google it !

Her name was Helena and you are about a 100 years out. She lived in the 300s.
While she was supposed to have collected relics, there is often very little records connecting her relics to objects later said to be them. The problem is that the Fall of the Western Empire and the chaos of the Arabic expansion intervened to destroy much of the record. Most was written on vellum, which can be erased and re-used, which it often was in the early middle ages when it merely recorded lists or texts that people felt were already epitomised elsewhere, if not burnt outright during the conquests. Thus much of the intervening record is lost and the later mediaeval relics often suspect, exploiting this lacunae. Thus there were multiple heads of John the Baptist, Holy Lances etc. Some may be true, but obviously all of them can't be.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I am not going to speak further in this thread on the Shroud of Turin, as I see it as a distraction to the topic. I shall make a separate thread on that later.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I don't believe anyone has fought over the cross, nails, or anything else. Revered it and held it high esteem, yes.
All these things remind us of our Creator and the sacrifice His Son made for us.
I would doubt that any individual has a piece of the Cross. I believe that pieces of the Cross are held in Churches throughout the world.

They have stolen and looted relics during wars though, most notably the Fourth Crusade, where many of the True Cross fragments are said to originate.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I don't think anyone worships relics. Everyone agrees that it is the veneration of something associated with God. No Christian worships anything but the Living God.

I think relics only have power as to the belief of the pilgrim, as in the woman who touched Jesus's cloak.

That said, I plan to visit Israel in my lifetime. I want to see Temple Mount, the Church of the Holy Sepulcre, Gethsemane etc. I shall doubtlessly feel the places holy and be moved deeply (I felt similarly when I visited St. Peter's in Rome and Francis of Assisi's Basilica).
If there is any real True Cross, I would really like to see it and I feel it would be spiritually uplifting, but this is obviously done in Jesus's name, not some pagan fetish-worship. I doubt there is any such wood though. I am a Protestant, but I think many Protestants throw the baby out with the bathwater here. While I am sure there are some who place too much trust in relics and not enough in God, for the vast majority it is at worst innocuous. Not that I myself venerate relics, in fact doubt most of them, I think God does use them to help some along.

How many good Protestants visit Israel and then collect Jordan river water to baptise their children? It is human nature, like people collecting Elvis memorabilia, and probably a good reminder of saintly Christians that came before and the Humanity of Christ, lest we fall into docetist or other heresies.

 

[prodromos]

Thus there were multiple heads of John the Baptist,

The so called seven heads of John the Baptist are all different pieces of the same skull. Some of the pieces are kept in reliquaries the size and shape of a complete skull, which is probably what has led to the idea of multiple skulls being claimed.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

The so called seven heads of John the Baptist are all different pieces of the same skull. Some of the pieces are kept in reliquaries the size and shape of a complete skull, which is probably what has led to the idea of multiple skulls being claimed.

There are reliquaries holding portions of skulls claiming to be John the Baptist, but also sites that claimed the full head. For instance the former basilica of St John in Damascus (now a mosque) claims the full head was buried there. We see Amiens Cathedral and St Silvestro in Capite both claim skull fragments from the same occipital area.
Josephus says it was buried in Machaerus, but other historians maintained it was buried in Sebaste in Palestine from where the relics were supposedly rescued after Julian the Apostate had them desecrated and taken to Egypt. Hence the Coptic Church also has a claim.
Even a small town in Yorkshire claimed to possess the head.

While some claims may be true, there are too many bone fragments, of the same areas of the skull, for all of them to be. It is simply unbelievable to think otherwise.

 

[stephen583]

They have stolen and looted relics during wars though, most notably the Fourth Crusade, where many of the True Cross fragments are said to originate.

Most people have seen at least one of the Indiana Jones movies. A reoccurring theme in these movies pits Jones against Nazis who are trying to collect religious relics for their mystical powers.

I've always had quite an interest in military history. So here's what I've heard about the Spear of Longinus (the spear allegedly used by a Roman soldier to pierce the body of Christ on the Cross, John 19:34), also known as the "Spear of Destiny".

The ancient Roman emperor Constantine is said to have carried the spear into victory at the Battle of Milvian bridge. Thereafter through the centuries it passed into the hands of several Saxon and German monarchs including Charlemagne the Great, until it ended up in a cathedral in Austria during recent times.

The spear was seized by Germany the day Hitler annexed Austria (March 12th 1938) and was transported to St. Catherine's Church (in Nuremburg I believe) where it remained until it was removed by the Nazis and moved to a secret vault.

On April 30th Lt. Walter Horn of the United States Army took possession of the spear in the name of the U.S. government. However, at least one historian Howard Buechuer of Tulane University who penned two books on the subject of the spear takes exception to this account.

According to Buechuer, who claims in his books to have interviewed Nazi officers responsible for the spear's safekeeping, the spear taken by Lt. Horn was a replica. The actual spear was placed in the hands of Col. Maximillian Hartmann during the final months of the war, who boarded a U-Boat commanded by Capt. Bernhardt (not the submarine commander's real name, which he insisted on keeping anonymous for fear of Nazi reprisal).

Buechnuer claims to have seen the U-Boat log and manifest of Capt. Bernhardt, as well as photographic evidence of the relics and treasures that were transported to a secret location in Antarctica.

Buechnuer asserts that in 1978, Col. Max Hartmann headed an expedition to Antarctica to retrieve the treasures and hand them over to Neo-Nazis operating in Germany.

It's a fascinating story, although it's just as likely the actual spear may have been destroyed in the final days of the war when Hitler ordered all confiscated "spoils of war" to be destroyed, rather than have them fall into the hands of the allies. Attempts by the allies to capture these spoils before they could be destroyed was portrayed in the Hollywood movie "The Monuments Men". However, thousands of treasures were destroyed by the Nazis and lost forever.

Anyway. Buechnuer's account is "way cool" !

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The spear was seized by Germany the day Hitler annexed Austria (March 12th 1938) and was transported to St. Catherine's Church (in Nuremburg I believe) where it remained until it was removed by the Nazis and moved to a secret vault.

On April 30th Lt. Walter Horn of the United States Army took possession of the spear in the name of the U.S. government. However, at least one historian Howard Buechuer of Tulane University who penned two books on the subject of the spear takes exception to this account.

According to Buechuer, who claims in his books to have interviewed Nazi officers responsible for the spear's safekeeping, the spear taken by Lt. Horn was a replica. The actual spear was placed in the hands of Col. Maximillian Hartmann during the final months of the war, who boarded a U-Boat commanded by Capt. Bernhardt (not the submarine commander's real name, which he insisted on keeping anonymous for fear of Nazi reprisal).

Buechnuer claims to have seen the U-Boat log and manifest of Capt. Bernhardt, as well as photographic evidence of the relics and treasures that were transported to a secret location in Antarctica.

Buechnuer asserts that in 1978, Col. Max Hartmann headed an expedition to Antarctica to retrieve the treasures and hand them over to Neo-Nazis operating in Germany.

It's a fascinating story, although it's just as likely the actual spear may have been destroyed in the final days of the war when Hitler ordered all confiscated "spoils of war" to be destroyed, rather than have them fall into the hands of the allies. Attempts by the allies to capture these spoils before they could be destroyed was portrayed in the Hollywood movie "The Monuments Men". However, thousands of treasures were destroyed by the Nazis and lost forever.

Anyway. Buechnuer's account is "way cool" !

Wonder if this had anything to do with it?

Patriarch Kirill strolls among penguins, prays in Orthodox church in Antarctica (VIDEO)

 

[prodromos]

There are reliquaries holding portions of skulls claiming to be John the Baptist, but also sites that claimed the full head. For instance the former basilica of St John in Damascus (now a mosque) claims the full head was buried there. We see Amiens Cathedral and St Silvestro in Capite both claim skull fragments from the same occipital area.
Josephus says it was buried in Machaerus, but other historians maintained it was buried in Sebaste in Palestine from where the relics were supposedly rescued after Julian the Apostate had them desecrated and taken to Egypt. Hence the Coptic Church also has a claim.
Even a small town in Yorkshire claimed to possess the head.

While some claims may be true, there are too many bone fragments, of the same areas of the skull, for all of them to be. It is simply unbelievable to think otherwise.

May I ask what your sources are for the above?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

May I ask what your sources are for the above?

I don't have easy specific sources on hand for much of that, I didn't set out to discuss the head of John the Baptist afterall.


Quickly googling, these are San Silvestro in Capite and Amiens Cathedral's heads. They both clearly share significant orbital, frontal and maxilliary bones.
I read about Amiens Cathedral's head before as the during the French Revolution it was almost destroyed and was debated in the assembly. A Picardy knight brought it back from the sack of Constantinople.

According to William Cambden and late mediaeval tradition, Halifax in Yorkshire derives its name from 'holy face' (halig feax in Old English) which refered to the Head of John the Baptist kept there. Hence its on their coat of arms, although I am not quite sure what happened to the relic itself, but I shall investigate this. This is however a false etymology for the name which probably referred to rough meadowland.

Regardless, here we have three places that claimed to hold his facial bones concurrently.

For the Damascus mosque, Pope John Paul II visited it and paid his repects. It was a news story a few years back during which time I read of Coptic claims, Islamic claims and the competing catholic claimants. I think Theodoret wrote on this, but I am speaking under correction.

If you want better sourcing, I am sure I'll come accross it again when I look for what happened to Halifax's head, so I'll post it when I get around to doing so.

 

[prodromos]

View attachment 189088
View attachment 189089
Quickly googling, these are San Silvestro in Capite and Amiens Cathedral's heads. They both clearly share significant orbital, frontal and maxilliary bones.

With all due respect, the 'skull' at San Silvestro is completely covered and it is not possible to determine which part of it is bone and which part is filler.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

With all due respect, the 'skull' at San Silvestro is completely covered and it is not possible to determine which part of it is bone and which part is filler.

Regardless it is claimed as a near complete skull, so my point stands. Multiple places claimed the Head of John the Baptist, or similar portions, so they can't all be right. This is again a distraction from the topic of the thread though, which is about the validity of True Cross fragments, not every other claimed relic.