How much sin?

paraducks · Oct 27, 2005

Trish1947 said:
I believe that the more you learn to walk in the Spirit, the less you become sin conscious. The less sin conscious you become, the less the sinful flesh participates in sin. The flesh never becomes sinless, just mortifed. These bodies still have to be changed and put on incorruption.

I am reminded of the Phillipians passage.

Godzchild · Oct 27, 2005

Still waiting for the answers to my question. The question was.....

Just want to know, from all those folk who believe that committing sin can make you lose your salvation, exactly how much sin does one need to commit to be able to undo the work of God?

Is there an amount?

It is obvious to me that there are those of you who believe that you can undo the work of God. I want to know what we need to do and how much we need to do it and for how long? IF we are so powerful that we can undo the work of the almighty then I want to know how!

Simon_Templar · Oct 27, 2005

How much sin does it take to lose your salvation... is that like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? The world may never know

Seriously... Most people who have discussed this topic on the forums here know that I believe it is possible to turn away from God and become apostate. I don't like the phrase "lose your salvation" because it tends to make people think you can lose your salvation like you would your keys.. oops.. now where did I put that salvation again!

Salvation is not lost because you sinned one too many times, or you did a sin that society considers to be really bad... Salvation is lost, in the opposite of the way it is gained. It is gained by receiving the grace of God and submitting to its work in you. It is lost by rejecting the grace of God and refusing to submit to its work in you.

Now.. what can lead to that situation? The bible is clear that deception can cause people to fall "the Spirit speaks expressly that in latter days many shall depart from the faith, (why?) giving heed to seducing spirits..." allowing themselves to be lead astray by the doctrines of devils and breaking their communion with God.

Hardening your heart against God is also something that can lead people to reject him and his grace. This could be from anger or bitterness, but also simply out of a love of the world, a continued refusal to repent which eventually leads to a person chosing the world over God.
James 1:15 "when lust has concieved it brings forth sin, when sin is finished, it brings death." We can never lose salvation by sinning one too many times (remember that the righteous man is he that falls seven times and seven times gets up), but allowing sin to fester and breed and refusing to repent can put you in danger.

2nd Chronicles 15:2 "... the Lord is with you while you are with him, if you seek him he will be found by you, if you leave him, he will leave you."

The chief danger for us in all cases is that we grow lax and unconcerned.. that opens us up to deception, it allows our heart to cool, and our desire for righteousness and truth to wane...

1 Tim. 1:19 "keeping faith and good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked."

Heb. 2:1 "Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away."
2:2 "For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, "
2:3 "how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, "

In my opinion, thinking that it is impossible for you to fall is probably the single most dangerous idea a christian can have.
1 Cor. 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. "

goy · Oct 27, 2005

Concise and to the point. Thanx Simon_Templar

Godzchild · Oct 27, 2005

In my opinion, thinking that it is impossible for you to fall is probably the single most dangerous idea a christian can have.

Not when you have faith in God's power to keep you from falling.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

1 Peter 1 v 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall ANY MAN pluck them out of My hand." (John 10:27,28)

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philip. 1:6)

Now none of these scriptures contradict the scriptures that you've posted Simon, but what people seem to miss is that even though the bible says that there are those who fall away, it also says that we are kept by God's power as well. In my opinion, the warning that are written in the bible is one of the ways in which we are kept. A true child of God will heed the warnings because they are sons of the most high God. The sheep hear his voice AND THEY FOLLOW HIM!!

A true christian will not fall away because they are kept by the power of God. The bible says so.

JBaker45 · Oct 28, 2005

Doug45 said:
I'm saying that having the promises of God doesn't automatically translate to a 'new nature'. We have a responsibility to put off the old man and put on the new man. It doesn't happen accidentally.

But Doug, we can give ourselves no credit for our salvation as I showed you with Eph 2:8.

Take a look at this :

Ephesians 1

4 According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he has made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Which he has abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

14 Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Do you see who is doing the work of salvation here?

It is God, and the work He does is guaranteed.

Praise God my friend !!!

jiminpa · Oct 28, 2005

I stumbled hard, while trusting God to keep me. It was almost twenty years ago, and I am still living, daily, with the consequences of it, and I still don't understand why God didn't warn me more clearly of what I was about to do. It wasn't something that I realized was a sin, exept for a single, quiet warning from the Spirit, that I thought was just my own emotions not wanting to hear a possible correction.

Yes, God can keep us from stumbing, but sometimes He lets us go our own way. I don't know why, but the Bible is full of examples. If we can choose to stumble we can choose to fall, and the Bible is full of warnings against falling completely away, so it must be possible.

I agree with what Simon said above. Salvation is not lost; it is relinquished, consciously, and purposely.

Joy · Oct 28, 2005

Doug45 said:
I'm saying that having the promises of God doesn't automatically translate to a 'new nature'. We have a responsibility to put off the old man and put on the new man. It doesn't happen accidentally.

What I am saying is the sinful nature never resided in my spirit, but rather in my flesh which controlled my soul which strongly influence my spirit that was dead to the things of God. Once the Spirit of God moves into a life at the point of justification, He works in us to reorder our entire being to the place where our spirit becomes alive to God and rules over our soul and our soul subjects our body to the rule of the spirit.

So if the grace is resident in the promises, the apropriation to the promises and the grace embodied by them remains with us. Grace is God's enablement to demonstrate Jesus.

My objection to your use of this passage is that it is plainly conditional and not automatic. If my understanding and experience means salvation by works to you, then let it be so. I serve another Master.

Doug

I agree Doug and can relate to everything you. I often get the impression that as believers we 'expect' God to do everything and we do nothing and I do not mean this in a legalistic way.
we are called to obey God's Word by putting it into practise. I read once abook by a deliverance minister who said the reason people do not stay deliverd is because they do not know how to renew their minds Romans 12:2 do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. but do we know how to?
God really ministered to me last night through a study on spiritual warfare. We all know scriptures like Ephesians 6 and often quote it frequently, but have we really understood that we can only be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power by 'putting on the full armor of God' The purpose of this is to be able to stand your ground in the evil day.

psalms 91 · Oct 28, 2005

yes, christianity is not a sit back religion we are to do somethong. God has given us everything we need to overcome but we must use what He has given us God in most cases is not going to do it for you until you have done everything you can do and used what He has given you

paraducks · Oct 28, 2005

Godzchild said:
Still waiting for the answers to my question. The question was.....

It is obvious to me that there are those of you who believe that you can undo the work of God. I want to know what we need to do and how much we need to do it and for how long? IF we are so powerful that we can undo the work of the almighty then I want to know how!

How much sin does it take to overcome the work of God? Forever one more than you are capable of in this life. That's not a license to sin, it is an assurance of He who saves.

Jimmy West · Oct 28, 2005

bill16652 said:
intentional sin where you consiously decide to sin over and over i believe will lead you from salvation but only God knows the heart and only God can decide when that point of your heart being hardened has been reached

Right! Amen!

Jimmy West · Oct 28, 2005

paraducks said:
This is a very short statement, so I want to be careful not to read to much into it. However, from what can be understood, the first sentence is in error. God indeed has a great "problem" with sin. So much so that He sent His Son to die a horrible death on the cross that we could enjoy a perfectly sinless eternity with Him.

What I mean by that is that God knows that we are imperfect. Free choice can cause or allow us to make bad decisions occasionally. He knows that we are going to sin. And he doesn't have a problem with that because it is our nature to make mistakes once in a while. When we continue committing the same sins after realizing that the initial sin was a mistake, is when he has a problem with it. If we don't learn from our mistakes, we are failing ourselves and God.

paraducks · Oct 28, 2005

Jimmy West said:
What I mean by that is that God knows that we are imperfect. Free choice can cause or allow us to make bad decisions occasionally. He knows that we are going to sin. And he doesn't have a problem with that because it is our nature to make mistakes once in a while. When we continue committing the same sins after realizing that the initial sin was a mistake, is when he has a problem with it. If we don't learn from our mistakes, we are failing ourselves and God.

I don't know who told you that "God doesn't have a problem with our sin", but whoever did, is a liar.

Joy · Oct 28, 2005

Why did Jesus suffer and die then if God had no problem with sin

karen

Trish1947 · Oct 28, 2005

Show me where it say's that we make ourselves new creatures. We were made a new creatures the day we were born again of the Spirit. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency may be of God and not of us." 'He who hath begun a good work in you shall perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Sounds more like trusting Him to make you into what He wants you to be. All else is works. I have found when I find an area of my life that I personally felt needed to be delt with, wasn't what God was working on at all. God was working on the small foxes in my life, and not so much what, in my thinking was the big issue.

inrsoul · Oct 28, 2005

Jimmy West said:
What I mean by that is that God knows that we are imperfect. Free choice can cause or allow us to make bad decisions occasionally. He knows that we are going to sin. And he doesn't have a problem with that because it is our nature to make mistakes once in a while. When we continue committing the same sins after realizing that the initial sin was a mistake, is when he has a problem with it. If we don't learn from our mistakes, we are failing ourselves and God.

God indeed has problem with every sin, from the smallest to the greatest of them. But for those who believe in his Son, Jesus Christ, our Father God does not look at us based on our sins, but he sees Jesus and the finished work. Jesus has paid the price for every single sin (from the smallest to the greatest) from the beginning to the end of time.

inrsoul · Oct 28, 2005

Trish1947 said:
Show me where it say's that we make ourselves new creatures. We were made a new creatures the day we were born again of the Spirit. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency may be of God and not of us." 'He who hath begun a good work in you shall perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Sounds more like trusting Him to make you into what He wants you to be. All else is works. I have found when I find an area of my life that I personally felt needed to be delt with, wasn't what God was working on at all. God was working on the small foxes in my life, and not so much what, in my thinking was the big issue.

The day that we are born of the spirit is the day we accept Christ. And what God has started in our lives, He will see to it that it gets done.

enoch son · Oct 28, 2005

paraducks said:
I don't personally believe it is possible, but from the previous post I'd deduce that we are all allowed one murder, so chose wisely.

Let's see, wife or mother-in-law? Wife or mother-in-law?

This is a false statement! For if one just thinks of murder in one's heart he or she has done the act. Care to change your post? Oh- my God we are so far from the fullness for what I just wrote I have sinned agianst you and you alone.

paraducks · Oct 28, 2005

enoch son said:
This is a false statement! For if one just thinks of murder in one's heart he or she has done the act. Care to change your post? Oh- my God we are so far from the fullness for what I just wrote I have sinned agianst you and you alone.

You are completely and stunningly wrong.

It wasn't a "false" statement, it was a sarcastic statement!....

Trust me, you just missed the humor of it brother.

Godzchild · Oct 28, 2005

jiminpa said:
I stumbled hard, while trusting God to keep me. It was almost twenty years ago, and I am still living, daily, with the consequences of it, and I still don't understand why God didn't warn me more clearly of what I was about to do. It wasn't something that I realized was a sin, exept for a single, quiet warning from the Spirit, that I thought was just my own emotions not wanting to hear a possible correction.

Yes, God can keep us from stumbing, but sometimes He lets us go our own way. I don't know why, but the Bible is full of examples. If we can choose to stumble we can choose to fall, and the Bible is full of warnings against falling completely away, so it must be possible.

I agree with what Simon said above. Salvation is not lost; it is relinquished, consciously, and purposely.

Yes Jonah was one of them - remember Jonah? He was given specific instructions that he disobeyed but the bottom line is...that God wanted Jonah to fulfill His will. So what ended up happening? Jonah went his own way didn't he? Then what? God orchestrated things around him so that he had consequences right? Sound familiar? Yes it should, he does it with us all the time. The end result was that Jonah, in his desperate state repented and ended up doing the will of God. God made sure of that!

If God has a plan for us - blowed if he's going to allow a little thing like 'our will' to stand in the way of what he has planned. God wanted Jonah to go to Ninevah and that was that! God was going to get his way - because that was his will. Jonah's free will didn't stand in the way of God's will. God just manipulated Jonah so that he would go to Ninevah and do the will of God - freely. Which he did!

I stumbled hard too but I believe that the Lord allows this to happen as a means in which to bring us back in line - he chastises who he loves! He DOES keep you from falling - that's what the bible says. Just because you can't recognise how he kept you and how he managed to manipulate you to do HIS will doesn't mean he didn't. The fact is plain to me, you may have stumbled but you did not fall and you were no cast down - Isn't God great at keeping you?

"The steps of the good man are ordered by the Lord, and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down. For the Lord upholdeth him with his hand"

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