How much sin?

psalms 91 · Oct 26, 2005

didaskalos said:
I think it is possible for people to lose themselves and forget who they are. They fall into a kind of soulical madness:

Luk 15:17 KJVA
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

Vincent's Word Pictures:
"Came to himself"
A striking expression, putting the state of rebellion against God as a kind of madness.

Barnes
Luke 15:17:
Verse 17. He came to himself. This is a very expressive phrase. It is commonly applied to one who has been deranged, and when he recovers we say he has come to himself. In this place it denotes that the folly of the young man was a kind of derangement--that he was insane.

The "prodigal son" sinned greatly while away from his father. The verse says he was not being himself.
I think Christians sometimes get lost. Then forget who they are...if they ever really were aware of it. While they are "away from themselves" (this is where they are before they "come to themselves") they may wander far and wide... joining themselves to sinners, and eating and living like a pig.
"No man gave unto him..."
Illustrative of being totally disfellowshiped from even the merciful in society. Repulsive and beyond hope.

Yet it was in this state of destitution and filth that he suddenly recalled (because of the contrast with his former life) who he and what he was.

Someone said that some people have to hit rock bottom before they come to the point of "self awareness". Then they come to themselves and return to who and what they are.

We wonder.... while they were lost in the world, did they ever at any time cease to be thier father's child? Who would have to make that decision? From the story, was the father waiting with a stick, ready to beat and chase him away.
Our position is ultimately tied up with our concept of the Father. How do you see Him?

i agree Dids but in many cases it is consious and a choice at least at first and while we are in that condition God will continue to work with us but if we harden our hearts then we are truly lost. Have you ever heard the term walking dead as applied to a theological concept, I truly believe there are those on the earth that are these. I will always look at scripture and scripture tells me there are certain sins that will not enter heaven and that it is possible to fall away and if we die while in that state then no i do not believe we are saved

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 26, 2005

Before people get saved they sometimes exist in a religion the requires that they live a "good life" and never sin. This is a legalistic religion that Paul soundly refutes in the opening chapters of Romans.
If you have become a Christian and your religion still says that you have to live a "good life" to be saved, and that sinning is going to cause you to lose that salvation... then what is the difference between your former religion and your Christianity?
Before you were saved, sins caused you to be lost.
After you were saved, sins can cause you to be lost.
There is no difference.
I would be concerned if my current religion was effectively the same as my former....

Christina M · Oct 26, 2005

didaskalos said:
Our position is ultimately tied up with our concept of the Father. How do you see Him?

Good point.

I see Him as one who would chastise and discipline any person who would willfully hurt and abuse one of His children. I believe He would tell that person that they indeed are NOT saved and secure in Him until they repent (turn away from the evil) and make restitution.

That's what He did with me when I got saved.

Your point about the prodigal leaves out one thing - the prodigal finally did come home - of his own accord. While he was out there, he was lost. Yes, the father was waiting - hoping - praying, but if he never returned he would still be lost.

Many people I know who claim to be saved are in all actuality out there lost....God's waiting patiently. But, at some time the door will close and if they are not back home by then, they will be lost. Scripture is clear on that.

Trish1947 · Oct 26, 2005

I think your post is a good one Did's. And self awareness to see our need is a good thing.

I was just thinking....
So what we should all do, the next time someone is wallowing with the pigs, we will just call them our dear "insane" brothers and sisters.. I wonder if that will get the thread closed.

Just kidding.

psalms 91 · Oct 26, 2005

why are we instructed in church disapline even to the point of not fellowshipping and putting out the sinning brother or sister? is it because a little leaven ruin the whole loaf? it surely cant be because they are our brothers and sisters. Sorry but if i accept that doctrine then i would be safe to go live as i did before i got saved and still go to heaven. God forbid heaven would not be safe until God did something, He went through it once with Satan, He will never allow those things to enter in again. The bibnle is very specific on what will not enter in

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 26, 2005

I agree there are death penalty sins. But these sins are not sins of the flesh. Those sins are bad, and we reap in the flesh what we sow in the flesh. But as in the OT, the penalty matched the crime:

Heb 2:
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

A "just recompence of reward" means that the punishment matchs perfectly the seriousness of the crime.
It was "eye for an eye"... not heart for an eye.
It was "tooth for a tooth"... not life for a tooth.

The worst possible punishment in the law was physical death. Certain sins warranted death. But as the NT points out, not a single person was saved by the law. That is because not a single person was lost by the law. All the law did was show them that they were bad trees and as "sinner trees" could do nothing but put forth "sin" fruit. The bad fruit was the result of what they were. But my point is that no fleshy sins result in spiritual death... the "just recompence reward" for sins of the flesh is physical death.

There is no sin of the flesh that in itself results in spiritual death. That is not "just recompence of reward". Ultimately it is unfair to Jesus, who purchased us with His blood. To say sins of the flesh result in spiritual death effectively diminishes the value of His blood... reducing the value of the blood of the Lord less than a sin of the flesh. If a sin of the flesh can overcome the blood of the Lord... then what value are we placing on His blood? Is it so ineffective?
If we think of that principle of "just recompense of reward" in reverse, we are saying the blood, death, and suffering of our savior was only good enough to wash away a few sins... but not all. To the contrary, John rightly said that the lamb took away the sins of the world. There are no sins of the flesh that His blood did not pay for.

bill16652 said:
i agree Dids but in many cases it is consious and a choice at least at first and while we are in that condition God will continue to work with us but if we harden our hearts then we are truly lost. Have you ever heard the term walking dead as applied to a theological concept, I truly believe there are those on the earth that are these. I will always look at scripture and scripture tells me there are certain sins that will not enter heaven and that it is possible to fall away and if we die while in that state then no i do not believe we are saved

Trish1947 · Oct 26, 2005

Is this what Jesus meant when He said:

Whosoever committeth sin, is a servent of sin.
But a servent does not abide in that house forever,
But the Son abideth forever.

In other words the worst punishment for fleshly sin is physical death.
But the spiritual man is made perfect.
We have become the spirits of just men made perfect. So there is no spiritual punishment to those that have been made perfect in spirit.

Is there a sin that results in spiritual death after being born again?

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 26, 2005

Trish1947 said:
I think your post is a good one Did's. And self awareness to see our need is a good thing.

I was just thinking....
So what we should all do, the next time someone is wallowing with the pigs, we will just call them our dear "insane" brothers and sisters.. I wonder if that will get the thread closed.

Just kidding.

Jude
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

He is able....
I wonder if He will.

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 26, 2005

Trish1947 said:
Is this what Jesus meant when He said:

Whosoever committeth sin, is a servent of sin.
But a servent does not abide in that house forever,
But the Son abideth forever.

In other words the worst punishment for fleshly sin is physical death.
But the spiritual man is made perfect.
We have become the spirits of just men made perfect. So there is no spiritual punishment to those that have been made perfect in spirit.

Is there a sin that results in spiritual death after being born again?

Look at this oft quoted, most misunderstood passage:

Chapter 13

1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2And Jesus answering said unto them, "Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? "
3"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. "
4"Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? "
5"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Nothing here is said about hell, or heaven for that matter.
This is all about temporal sin and temporal punishment.
This is just recompence of reward.
This is sowing what you reap.

These folks were no less or more sinners than anyone else. What is the worse that could happen to people like them (including us) for not repenting of sins?
You would perish like them:
Be killed by a tower falling...
Be killed by a political purge...
Or any like punishment.

Just recompence of reward.
Temproral punishment for temporal sin.

Not eternal punishment for temporal sin.

psalms 91 · Oct 26, 2005

what about those cast into the lake of fire, what about those who follow antichrist and recieve his mark, what aboutthe great white throne judgement what about those who stood before Jesus and said did we not cast out devils in your name and He replied I never knew you you workers of iniquity depart from me, what about the story of the rich man and the poor man, what about wide is the path to destruction but narrow is the way. there is just to much in scripture to say that we cant fall away.

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 26, 2005

Christina M said:
Good point.

I see Him as one who would chastise and discipline any person who would willfully hurt and abuse one of His children. I believe He would tell that person that they indeed are NOT saved and secure in Him until they repent (turn away from the evil) and make restitution.

That's what He did with me when I got saved.

Your point about the prodigal leaves out one thing - the prodigal finally did come home - of his own accord. While he was out there, he was lost. Yes, the father was waiting - hoping - praying, but if he never returned he would still be lost....

Hi sis.
Well I did address that point.
I pointed out that all the while he was gone he never ceased to be his father's child. Blood of his blood, flesh of his flesh.
What is the worse that might have happened to him? He could have died. At death he would have ceased to be his father's son. But as you point out... he did return. That is the point of the story.
When I teach this parable, I do not call it the "parable of the prodigal son". I call it "the parable of the compassionate father". It is His love and compassion that is the center of the parable and without which the parable would have a tragic and sad ending.
The boy was not himself while he was gone. But something brought him back to sanity. Those of us who are parents know what this is talking about. I have 4 kids. Two of them left home as soon as HS was over. They went a little "nuts". But it was not long before they "came to themselves". All those years of mom and dads instruction and compassion brought them back. If that instruction had not been there... deep and solid, they would not have returned to themselves. There would have been nothing to return to.
If the prodigal was not still his father's child, he would have never come back to himself. It was because the boy was his father's child that he came back. If he had been lost, there would have been nothing there to "come back to". He would have just remained the destitute, pig man that he was. That is part of what being truly lost is.

Trish1947 · Oct 26, 2005

bill16652 said:
what about those cast into the lake of fire, what about those who follow antichrist and recieve his mark, what aboutthe great white throne judgement what about those who stood before Jesus and said did we not cast out devils in your name and He replied I never knew you you workers of iniquity depart from me, what about the story of the rich man and the poor man, what about wide is the path to destruction but narrow is the way. there is just to much in scripture to say that we cant fall away.

Isn't this referring to the unregenerate?

psalms 91 · Oct 26, 2005

yes in some of these cases but what about those who have fallen away

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 26, 2005

Hi Bill... thanks for all these good comments. Makes us think.

bill16652 said:
why are we instructed in church disapline even to the point of not fellowshipping and putting out the sinning brother or sister? is it because a little leaven ruin the whole loaf? it surely cant be because they are our brothers and sisters.

The reason we are instructed to do this is to help bring them to that place where the prodigal son was. He was eating pigs food and "no man gave unto him". The Christian who sins needs to be made aware in no uncertain terms the serverity of his deeds. The danger has to be made plain to him. The Corinthian fornicator is an example. Paul exhorted the Corinthians to morn for him.

Chapter 5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you

They were to treat him in such a way that would show him his state. He was out of fellowship with God and was in danger of physical death:

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

"... delivered unto satan.... for the destruction of the flesh..."

You know if satan has anything to do with the destruction of your flesh, it is not going to be a mercy killing.

"...that the spirit be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus..."

The fornicator was still saved. He was in danger... but he was at this point still destined for heaven. Yes I do believe that there is a sin unto spiritual death. But it is not the physical sins of the flesh. Perhaps his death would pay for these sins. He would be reaping in the flesh the corruption he was sowing. Perhaps it was a matter of "just recompence of reward". Maybe he was sinning a sin "not unto (spiritual death) and nobody was praying that he was given life for it (1 John 5).
We must ask what our own death and suffering has to do with the clearing of our own sin.

Sorry but if i accept that doctrine then i would be safe to go live as i did before i got saved and still go to heaven.

Well brother...that is not really what anyone is saying. I do not know anyone who says "you can now do whatever you want and not worry about it..."
As Jesus, Paul, and John pointed out. There are penalties for sin....even a horrible death at the hands of satan! If we believe we will suffer a horrible disease or painful death... will we willingly sin? I hope not.

God forbid heaven would not be safe until God did something, He went through it once with Satan, He will never allow those things to enter in again. The bibnle is very specific on what will not enter in

The answer to this is the knowledge about who and what you are in Christ. You born again spirit is completely holy and pure. There is no sin in your spirit. If you follow the inclinations of your born again spirit, you will never sin because your spirit cannot sin.

1 John 3
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

No need to worry about your spirit bringing sin into heaven. There is no sin in it.

psalms 91 · Oct 26, 2005

didaskalos said:
Hi Bill... thanks for all these good comments. Makes us think.

The reason we are instructed to do this is to help bring them to that place where the prodigal son was. He was eating pigs food and "no man gave unto him". The Christian who sins needs to be made aware in no uncertain terms the serverity of his deeds. The danger has to be made plain to him. The Corinthian fornicator is an example. Paul exhorted the Corinthians to morn for him.

Chapter 5

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you

They were to treat him in such a way that would show him his state. He was out of fellowship with God and was in danger of physical death:

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

"... delivered unto satan.... for the destruction of the flesh..."

You know if satan has anything to do with the destruction of your flesh, it is not going to be a mercy killing.

"...that the spirit be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus..."

The fornicator was still saved. He was in danger... but he was at this point still destined for heaven. Yes I do believe that there is a sin unto spiritual death. But it is not the physical sins of the flesh. Perhaps his death would pay for these sins. He would be reaping in the flesh the corruption he was sowing. Perhaps it was a matter of "just recompence of reward". Maybe he was sinning a sin "not unto (spiritual death) and nobody was praying that he was given life for it (1 John 5).
We must ask what our own death and suffering has to do with the clearing of our own sin.

Well brother...that is not really what anyone is saying. I do not know anyone who says "you can now do whatever you want and not worry about it..."
As Jesus, Paul, and John pointed out. There are penalties for sin....even a horrible death at the hands of satan! If we believe we will suffer a horrible disease or painful death... will we willingly sin? I hope not.

The answer to this is the knowledge about who and what you are in Christ. You born again spirit is completely holy and pure. There is no sin in your spirit. If you follow the inclinations of your born again spirit, you will never sin because your spirit cannot sin.
1 John 3

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

No need to worry about your spirit bringing sin into heaven. There is no sin in it.

i agree that there is a holy place within each of us that is sinless but i also believe that if i continue to willfully sin and not repent then Gods Spirit will leave at some point and i will be lost, i do not believe that an oops or our daily sins can do that but to willfully sin is another story at what point are you lost only God knows because only He knows the heart but it can happen.

Trish1947 · Oct 26, 2005

Why don't sinners die young? They seem to have the longest life spans. I know a few that are just full of the devil and his deeds, and one of them is still going strong at the good old age of 92 and counting, and just as mean as ever. Doesn't want to have anything to do with God. So I wonder, there is greater probability that if Christians sin grieviously, without repentance, that the devil has the right to kill us, before he kills his own..I'm going to have to mull this over..LOL.

paraducks · Oct 26, 2005

Trish1947 said:
Why don't sinners die young? They seem to have the longest life spans. I know a few that are just full of the devil and his deeds, and one of them is still going strong at the good old age of 92 and counting, and just as mean as ever. Doesn't want to have anything to do with God. So I wonder, there is greater probability that if Christians sin grieviously, without repentance, that the devil has the right to kill us, before he kills his own..I'm going to have to mull this over..LOL.

God is Mercy.

inrsoul · Oct 26, 2005

Trish1947 said:
Why don't sinners die young? They seem to have the longest life spans. I know a few that are just full of the devil and his deeds, and one of them is still going strong at the good old age of 92 and counting, and just as mean as ever. Doesn't want to have anything to do with God. So I wonder, there is greater probability that if Christians sin grieviously, without repentance, that the devil has the right to kill us, before he kills his own..I'm going to have to mull this over..LOL.

I would think the lack of sin consciousness has kept him going for so long. Just a thought, what you think?

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 26, 2005

Good point.
I guess that is why Paul said that the fornicating believer was to be delivered unto satan by their prayers... it does not happen automatically???

Trish1947 said:
Why don't sinners die young? They seem to have the longest life spans. I know a few that are just full of the devil and his deeds, and one of them is still going strong at the good old age of 92 and counting, and just as mean as ever. Doesn't want to have anything to do with God. So I wonder, there is greater probability that if Christians sin grieviously, without repentance, that the devil has the right to kill us, before he kills his own..I'm going to have to mull this over..LOL.

At any rate... if grace and mercy is extended to the worst of sinners, what is that to us? Mercy and grace are His to give. Perhaps this old fool with repent at the ripe old age of 99. And I for one will not complain.

paraducks · Oct 26, 2005

didaskalos said:
Good point.
I guess that is why Paul said that the fornicating believer was to be delivered unto satan by their prayers... it does not happen automatically???

At any rate... if grace and mercy is extended to the worst of sinners, what is that to us? Mercy and grace are His to give. Perhaps this old fool with repent at the ripe old age of 99. And I for one will not complain.

In a strange sort of way, old unregenerate hard heads are proof of God's amazing diligence in pursuing us. Proof of His patience, that sort of thing.

How much sin?

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