How much proof would it take?

[pwbarnes]

I'm new to this forum. I've enjoyed reading your debates. I credit myself as an intelligent person, but my first language is that of faith, not science. This does not mean that I want to close my mind to science. Just the opposite, I would like to know as much about science as I can learn. This seems like a great forum and I think I can learn much here.

Since I am a Christian, and I do believe the Bible when it says that God is the Creator of all things, I am wondering what it would take to convince someone who denies the existence of God that He exists and that He is the Creator of the universe? By "someone," I do mean people who frequent this forum and who deny the existence of God as revealed in the Bible.

 

[Kylie]

I'm new to this forum. I've enjoyed reading your debates. I credit myself as an intelligent person, but my first language is that of faith, not science. This does not mean that I want to close my mind to science. Just the opposite, I would like to know as much about science as I can learn. This seems like a great forum and I think I can learn much here.

Since I am a Christian, and I do believe the Bible when it says that God is the Creator of all things, I am wondering what it would take to convince someone who denies the existence of God that He exists and that He is the Creator of the universe? By "someone," I do mean people who frequent this forum and who deny the existence of God as revealed in the Bible.

I'm sure God would be able to prove himself to me in such a way to be totally convincing if he so desired. All he has to do is do that and I'll believe.

Failing that, a passage from the Bible that makes a clear, unambiguous prophecy which is very unlikely, like the Earth's rotation stopping and then reversing. If it actually happened, then I'd consider that some prety good evidence.

Shame none of that stuff actually happens though...

 

[pwbarnes]

I'm sure God would be able to prove himself to me in such a way to be totally convincing if he so desired. All he has to do is do that and I'll believe.

Failing that, a passage from the Bible that makes a clear, unambiguous prophecy which is very unlikely, like the Earth's rotation stopping and then reversing. If it actually happened, then I'd consider that some prety good evidence.

Shame none of that stuff actually happens though...

If God appeared to you in person displaying all His glory and power and He told you to believe in His Son Jesus, would you truly believe you had seen God? Isn't it likely that a person who didn't believe in a divine being would rather believe that they had experienced a hallucination or a dream?

Or let's say that the words "JESUS IS GOD" appeared on the moon. Would that be proof positive? I also wonder if non-believers would say that it was some atmospheric phenomenon that had caused us to believe we were seeing those words.

I wonder if someone who is convinced that God cannot exist could ever be convinced they were wrong?

And yes, I must confess that it would take much to move me from my faith, only because I have personally experienced God's presence and seen His power at work in my life. To deny God for me would be like denying my heart is beating or the existence of sunlight.

 

[alien444]

If God appeared to you in person displaying all His glory and power and He told you to believe in His Son Jesus, would you truly believe you had seen God? Isn't it likely that a person who didn't believe in a divine being would rather believe that they had experienced a hallucination or a dream?

Or let's say that the words "JESUS IS GOD" appeared on the moon. Would that be proof positive? I also wonder if non-believers would say that it was some atmospheric phenomenon that had caused us to believe we were seeing those words.

I wonder if someone who is convinced that God cannot exist could ever be convinced they were wrong?

And yes, I must confess that it would take much to move me from my faith, only because I have personally experienced God's presence and seen His power at work in my life. To deny God for me would be like denying my heart is beating or the existence of sunlight.

It is an interesting question that is very telling about the differences in faith and reason. In my opinion, the current overwhelming lack of evidence for such a serious and grand claim as the existence of God should be enough for anyone to not believe or at least become agnostic. If the current lack of religious evidence balanced with scientific understanding of the universe does not convince someone that God does not exist, then I don't really see any future discoveries about the universe that will convince a believer otherwise.

However, I am as comfortable and confident in my atheistic worldview as the most devout Christian is in theirs, but all it would take for me to believe in God would be one single objective sign of his existence. If there was an objective supernatural event such as the "Jesus is God" on the moon example, that could not be shown to have been the incontrovertible result of some very unusual natural phenomenon, I would devote the rest of my life to Christianity. However, it wouldn't take anything as grand as this to convince me that at least, God likely exists. I would be very disappointed to discover that the Christian God does exist though because I believe him to be of extremely questionable morality.

 

[Seipai]

I'm new to this forum. I've enjoyed reading your debates. I credit myself as an intelligent person, but my first language is that of faith, not science. This does not mean that I want to close my mind to science. Just the opposite, I would like to know as much about science as I can learn. This seems like a great forum and I think I can learn much here.

Since I am a Christian, and I do believe the Bible when it says that God is the Creator of all things, I am wondering what it would take to convince someone who denies the existence of God that He exists and that He is the Creator of the universe? By "someone," I do mean people who frequent this forum and who deny the existence of God as revealed in the Bible.

Perhaps you should go for the best of both worlds.

There is no reason that you cannot be a Christian and accept the theory of evolution as being correct. Most Christians do. It is not necessary to believe the Noah's Ark myth to be a Christian. Science describes how the Earth works. Religion is concerned with how you live your life in this world and what will happen to you in the next one.

You have been creating a false dichotomy. Why couldn't God have used evolution as his tool of creation.

 

[Michael]

It is an interesting question that is very telling about the differences in faith and reason. In my opinion, the current overwhelming lack of evidence for such a serious and grand claim as the existence of God should be enough for anyone to not believe or at least become agnostic.

We'll just call that your personal "statement of faith" then, ok?

I assume you're rationalizing this position based on some sort of perceived lack of cause/effect justification for God having some effect on Earth?

If the current lack of religious evidence balanced with scientific understanding of the universe does not convince someone that God does not exist, then I don't really see any future discoveries about the universe that will convince a believer otherwise.

Now you lost me completely. Exactly what "scientific understanding of the universe" doesn't involve those same lack of cause/effect demonstration problems your whining about in relationship to God? What have we actually "discovered" about the universe since most of it is "dark" (a placeholder term for human ignorance)?

However, I am as comfortable and confident in my atheistic worldview as the most devout Christian is in theirs, but all it would take for me to believe in God would be one single objective sign of his existence.

Define "objective"?

If there was an objective supernatural event such as the "Jesus is God" on the moon example, that could not be shown to have been the incontrovertible result of some very unusual natural phenomenon, I would devote the rest of my life to Christianity.

Um, why does God have to be "supernatural" exactly?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I'm new to this forum. I've enjoyed reading your debates. I credit myself as an intelligent person, but my first language is that of faith, not science. This does not mean that I want to close my mind to science. Just the opposite, I would like to know as much about science as I can learn. This seems like a great forum and I think I can learn much here.

Since I am a Christian, and I do believe the Bible when it says that God is the Creator of all things, I am wondering what it would take to convince someone who denies the existence of God that He exists and that He is the Creator of the universe? By "someone," I do mean people who frequent this forum and who deny the existence of God as revealed in the Bible.

The kind of evidence that is independently verifiable that does not require believing this god exist before the verification.

The kind of evidence that enables me to differentiate a thing that exists from a thing that doesn't exist.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I wonder if someone who is convinced that God cannot exist could ever be convinced they were wrong?

Being convinced of things that are in no way demonstrable is always irrational.

Fyi: what would convince you that you are wrong?

 

[Kylie]

If God appeared to you in person displaying all His glory and power and He told you to believe in His Son Jesus, would you truly believe you had seen God? Isn't it likely that a person who didn't believe in a divine being would rather believe that they had experienced a hallucination or a dream?

Assuming that there is something that would convince me that there is a god, and also assuming that the Christian God knows and is capable of providing it, why wouldn't it convince me? After all, if it could be dismissed as just a dream or something, then it wouldn't be convincing, and thus god wouldn't use it.

Or let's say that the words "JESUS IS GOD" appeared on the moon. Would that be proof positive? I also wonder if non-believers would say that it was some atmospheric phenomenon that had caused us to believe we were seeing those words.

If this was shown to be impossible for humans to accomplish, then yes, I would at the least consider it strong evidence. Perhaps if the stars in the sky moved, then it would be more convincing. After all, there's no way Humans could do that. And if the event was clearly - CLEARLY - prophesied in the Bible, then it would be even stronger proof!

I wonder if someone who is convinced that God cannot exist could ever be convinced they were wrong?

There have been many times in my life where I was convinced of something and later changed my mind. All I ask is evidence. I will believe anything, provided there is evidence for it.

And yes, I must confess that it would take much to move me from my faith, only because I have personally experienced God's presence and seen His power at work in my life. To deny God for me would be like denying my heart is beating or the existence of sunlight.

How did you verify what you experienced though? How do you know it was really God instead of something else that you simply interpreted as being God?

 

[Kylie]

What have we actually "discovered" about the universe since most of it is "dark" (a placeholder term for human ignorance)?

I see what you did there. Please don't try to derail the thread into another of your dark matter rants.

 

[madaz]

I am wondering what it would take to convince someone who denies the existence of God that He exists and that He is the Creator of the universe?

You could almost convince me that your god exists if you pray/ask him to send a 40.5 kilogram meterorite through the roof of my house at 9:20 pm AEST on 26th April 2014.

If you can pray/ask him to do this and he does, I will be convinced he exists but I will still doubt he created the universe.

So, if you can get him to send the star Betelgeuse immediately into supernova as well as reverse the orbit of the moon, Mars and Jupiter it will go along way towards compelling me that He created the universe.

 

[Nithavela]

I'm new to this forum. I've enjoyed reading your debates. I credit myself as an intelligent person, but my first language is that of faith, not science. This does not mean that I want to close my mind to science. Just the opposite, I would like to know as much about science as I can learn. This seems like a great forum and I think I can learn much here.

Since I am a Christian, and I do believe the Bible when it says that God is the Creator of all things, I am wondering what it would take to convince someone who denies the existence of God that He exists and that He is the Creator of the universe? By "someone," I do mean people who frequent this forum and who deny the existence of God as revealed in the Bible.

1 proof would suffice. Even one piece of objective evidence would be enough to make me entertain the possibility of the existence of supernatural forces.

 

[pwbarnes]

Perhaps you should go for the best of both worlds.

There is no reason that you cannot be a Christian and accept the theory of evolution as being correct. Most Christians do. It is not necessary to believe the Noah's Ark myth to be a Christian. Science describes how the Earth works. Religion is concerned with how you live your life in this world and what will happen to you in the next one.

You have been creating a false dichotomy. Why couldn't God have used evolution as his tool of creation.

I do accept microevolution. We can demonstrate it's existence. I reject macroevolution. It isn't proven and it isn't necessary. Please see reasons.org for more on this.

 

[Nithavela]

I do accept microevolution. We can demonstrate it's existence. I reject macroevolution. It isn't proven and it isn't necessary. Please see reasons.org for more on this.

I believe in walking one step, but not on walking a mile, too.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I do accept microevolution. We can demonstrate it's existence. I reject macroevolution. It isn't proven and it isn't necessary. Please see reasons.org for more on this.

Please see TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy for a comprehensive explanation about how there is no actual distinction between "micro" and "macro" evolution within the field of biology.

 

[pwbarnes]

I have a couple points to make: first, if you believe there is no God, then you will expect all natural phenomena to confirm that belief. Even if God revealed Himself through the natural world in an incontestable manner, unbelievers would deny that God was the Author of said phenomenon and would search for a natural cause.

I don't mean to rehash old and worn debate topics on how time and chance can result in the complexity, diversity, and beauty we find in life on earth and the composition of the cosmos, but for me, this is incontrovertible proof of the existence of an Intelligent Creator.

Furthermore, many skeptics have posted that if God were to reveal Himself in an undeniable fashion, they would become believers. I think it's possible that these people have missed the implication that a god who imposed his existence on humanity in such a fashion would be a tyrant. If there were no room for doubt, there would be no place for free choice. The Bible states that God desires our freely given love and loyalty. If God did indeed make Himself known to us beyond a shadow of a doubt and He re-affirmed that all are sinners destined for hell and that Jesus was the only way, I wonder how many "converted" skeptics would be content with this situation?

 

[pwbarnes]

Fyi: what would convince you that you are wrong?

Good question. Truthfully, I don't think that there is anything that could dissuade me from my faith. I cannot deny the God who has revealed Himself to me and whose Son chose to die for me on the cross.

Are you willing to be honest about your beliefs also? Can you truthfully say that you aren't looking for reasons to doubt rather than reasons to believe?

And ultimately, neither of us is likely to change our positions. So in the end, if you're right, then we both cease to exist when we die. But if I'm right, I will be with God and you will be in total desolation when you die.

 

[Heissonear]

If God appeared to you in person displaying all His glory and power and He told you to believe in His Son Jesus, would you truly believe you had seen God? Isn't it likely that a person who didn't believe in a divine being would rather believe that they had experienced a hallucination or a dream?

Or let's say that the words "JESUS IS GOD" appeared on the moon. Would that be proof positive? I also wonder if non-believers would say that it was some atmospheric phenomenon that had caused us to believe we were seeing those words.

I wonder if someone who is convinced that God cannot exist could ever be convinced they were wrong?

And yes, I must confess that it would take much to move me from my faith, only because I have personally experienced God's presence and seen His power at work in my life. To deny God for me would be like denying my heart is beating or the existence of sunlight.

 

[Heissonear]

Fyi: what would convince you that you are wrong?

Read the last part of your prior post. Humm, the gentleman has obtained what your requested!

And so have I.

Now it's your turn.

.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

And ultimately, neither of us is likely to change our positions. So in the end, if you're right, then we both cease to exist when we die. But if I'm right, I will be with God and you will be in total desolation when you die.

Which in itself is proof that your god is a nonsense.