How much power do we have and what should we do with it?

[Phillip Huffman]

This is a subject that I've never found addressed properly so I propose it for discussion here.
The purpose of this discussion is mainly to ask, "what should we do with it" but I feel the need to establish the basis of the question first and leave that open for discussion too.

1. Humans have great power and authority.
At creation God made man in His own image.
That implies great power - at the very least, the 'image of' omnipotence & omniscience, but with, at the time, innocence of evil and wickedness. Perhaps this explains our creativity and thirst for knowledge?
After creation, God ordered Adam to oversee all of the earth and have dominion over every living thing that moves - worldwide authority - and God would not give authority with out the power to carry it out.
Depending on how you take Genesis 11:6, it seems God is saying that anything that the people who were building the tower of Babel imagined to do, they could do. Some commentaries explain that God was saying that there were no other earthly powers available to prevent the project or force the people to obey the command to disperse and replenish the earth. Take it how you will.
This roughly outlines the power of humankind - creativity, knowledge, dominion over all that lives on earth. That's nothing to dismiss lightly.

In the old testament, in one particular verse, God calls the people of Israel 'gods', and I think the implication is that they, having received His word, are given greater authority, or at least wisdom, than the gentile nations. Christ then, uses that verse in arguing for the righteousness of his claim to be the Son of God, saying, "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" Note the use of the small letter g - so this is implying a level of authority or power but not necessarily divinity.

Now, in the new testament, we have, of course, the divine adoption of believers.
Whatever your view of this may be, the fact is, we've essentially been made into adolescent gods.
In saying that I'm not trying to be weird or flippant of dishonoring to God - I'm making the point, that we have direct, personal access to the very power that holds all things together. He adopted us, made us joint heirs with Christ who is also a member of the Godhead himself. The Holy Spirit indwells us, so we have His fellowship available at all times. It's very much like being teenage gods. If that's not enough, we can ask the Almighty Himself for things beyond our own power any time we want to.
Fellow believers, we have ALOT of power at our command.

Now to the important question:
2. What should we do with it?

Obviously, one of the simplest and best answers is going to be the question of:

What does Father want us to do with it?

I've been told all sorts of answers to that question but I'd like to see what the believers have to say. Show it from scripture - what does Father want of his children? What works would He have us do in his creation?

 

[timothyu]

First of all you have to decide which side you are on, the thinking of mankind or the thinking of God. Are anyone answering the question going to do it from the viewpoint of human tradition or the tradition of thee Kingdom. The Bible from cover to cover speaks of and gives examples of man's will vs God's.

So should this power be used in the world of man in the traditional way the Jews had expected in Jesus' time looking for a fleshy king, , or to be used to further the commandments of the Kingdom as Jesus dictated, which as we saw, disappointed the heck out of the Jews in Jesus' day.

 

[disciple Clint]

This is a subject that I've never found addressed properly so I propose it for discussion here.
The purpose of this discussion is mainly to ask, "what should we do with it" but I feel the need to establish the basis of the question first and leave that open for discussion too.

1. Humans have great power and authority.
At creation God made man in His own image.
That implies great power - at the very least, the 'image of' omnipotence & omniscience, but with, at the time, innocence of evil and wickedness. Perhaps this explains our creativity and thirst for knowledge?
After creation, God ordered Adam to oversee all of the earth and have dominion over every living thing that moves - worldwide authority - and God would not give authority with out the power to carry it out.
Depending on how you take Genesis 11:6, it seems God is saying that anything that the people who were building the tower of Babel imagined to do, they could do. Some commentaries explain that God was saying that there were no other earthly powers available to prevent the project or force the people to obey the command to disperse and replenish the earth. Take it how you will.
This roughly outlines the power of humankind - creativity, knowledge, dominion over all that lives on earth. That's nothing to dismiss lightly.

In the old testament, in one particular verse, God calls the people of Israel 'gods', and I think the implication is that they, having received His word, are given greater authority, or at least wisdom, than the gentile nations. Christ then, uses that verse in arguing for the righteousness of his claim to be the Son of God, saying, "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" Note the use of the small letter g - so this is implying a level of authority or power but not necessarily divinity.

Now, in the new testament, we have, of course, the divine adoption of believers.
Whatever your view of this may be, the fact is, we've essentially been made into adolescent gods.
In saying that I'm not trying to be weird or flippant of dishonoring to God - I'm making the point, that we have direct, personal access to the very power that holds all things together. He adopted us, made us joint heirs with Christ who is also a member of the Godhead himself. The Holy Spirit indwells us, so we have His fellowship available at all times. It's very much like being teenage gods. If that's not enough, we can ask the Almighty Himself for things beyond our own power any time we want to.
Fellow believers, we have ALOT of power at our command.

Now to the important question:
2. What should we do with it?

Obviously, one of the simplest and best answers is going to be the question of:

What does Father want us to do with it?

I've been told all sorts of answers to that question but I'd like to see what the believers have to say. Show it from scripture - what does Father want of his children? What works would He have us do in his creation?

That implies great power - at the very least, the 'image of' omnipotence & omniscience, but with, at the time, innocence of evil and wickedness. Perhaps this explains our creativity and thirst for knowledge?

Can you support this statement?
This post sounds much like LDS Theology, Maybe I am wrong.

 

[Phillip Huffman]

@disciple Clint - I can understand having that concern but I'm not going that direction, at all.
I'm not entirely clear which part of the statement you are having a problem with though.
From scripture we have:
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." - Genesis 1:27
Humans are very different from the animals - why? because we, unlike the beasts, are created in God's image. Those differences, it seems most likely, are due to us bearing His likeness. Maybe I'm wrong? Here's what I'm thinking:
God possess all knowledge - man desires and seek knowledge - beasts don't care to know anything more than their nature demands.
God creates and destroys at His very word and for his pleasure and will - man creates and destroys as he sees fit, for abstract reasons but is limited by the physical - beasts only make and destroy what their nature dictates and only for purposes of food and shelter or the like.
God commands both good and evil to work his will - mankind likewise uses both such agents to work his will in the earth - beats can only divide between good and bad, such as potential mates or food sources, but do not truely comprehend evil and righteousness.
God exercises reason - humans use it too - beasts have no more reason than desire or preference.

Does that illustrate what I said there?

 

[timothyu]

God possess all knowledge - man desires and seek knowledge - beasts don't care to know anything more than their nature demands.

Man put our will before God's when Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. Original sin. 'Beasts' still don't know they are naked. Man in the meantime continually changes the meaning of good and evil to suit our purposes.

 

[disciple Clint]

Phillip Huffman said: ↑
God commands both good and evil to work his will
Phillip Huffman said: ↑
That implies great power - at the very least, the 'image of' omnipotence & omniscience
Can you support these thoughts?

 

[1213]

...
2. What should we do with it?

Obviously, one of the simplest and best answers is going to be the question of:

What does Father want us to do with it?

I think the answer is, love others and do good to others.

 

[disciple Clint]

This is a subject that I've never found addressed properly so I propose it for discussion here.
The purpose of this discussion is mainly to ask, "what should we do with it" but I feel the need to establish the basis of the question first and leave that open for discussion too.

1. Humans have great power and authority.
At creation God made man in His own image.
That implies great power - at the very least, the 'image of' omnipotence & omniscience, but with, at the time, innocence of evil and wickedness. Perhaps this explains our creativity and thirst for knowledge?
After creation, God ordered Adam to oversee all of the earth and have dominion over every living thing that moves - worldwide authority - and God would not give authority with out the power to carry it out.
Depending on how you take Genesis 11:6, it seems God is saying that anything that the people who were building the tower of Babel imagined to do, they could do. Some commentaries explain that God was saying that there were no other earthly powers available to prevent the project or force the people to obey the command to disperse and replenish the earth. Take it how you will.
This roughly outlines the power of humankind - creativity, knowledge, dominion over all that lives on earth. That's nothing to dismiss lightly.

In the old testament, in one particular verse, God calls the people of Israel 'gods', and I think the implication is that they, having received His word, are given greater authority, or at least wisdom, than the gentile nations. Christ then, uses that verse in arguing for the righteousness of his claim to be the Son of God, saying, "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" Note the use of the small letter g - so this is implying a level of authority or power but not necessarily divinity.

Now, in the new testament, we have, of course, the divine adoption of believers.
Whatever your view of this may be, the fact is, we've essentially been made into adolescent gods.
In saying that I'm not trying to be weird or flippant of dishonoring to God - I'm making the point, that we have direct, personal access to the very power that holds all things together. He adopted us, made us joint heirs with Christ who is also a member of the Godhead himself. The Holy Spirit indwells us, so we have His fellowship available at all times. It's very much like being teenage gods. If that's not enough, we can ask the Almighty Himself for things beyond our own power any time we want to.
Fellow believers, we have ALOT of power at our command.

Now to the important question:
2. What should we do with it?

Obviously, one of the simplest and best answers is going to be the question of:

What does Father want us to do with it?

I've been told all sorts of answers to that question but I'd like to see what the believers have to say. Show it from scripture - what does Father want of his children? What works would He have us do in his creation?

While I do not support the Idea that God uses evil or that man is associated with omnipotence and omniscience, the answer to what do we do with what God has given us seems simple enough.

Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19, and Mark 12:30

 

[Phillip Huffman]

@disciple Clint
Excellent points to question!
As @timothyu pointed out, mankind does have a tendency to re-define good and evil to suit our purposes, so the point can be fairly made that this statement is a matter of perspective, but I would disagree.
All creation, willingly or not, fulfills Father's purposes.
As I defend this point, let me clarify that I am not claiming that God is evil or wicked in any sense, but rather that everything, even that which we consider to be evil, serves Him, though that is not necessarily the intent of the agent.

We know from scripture that God has made all things for himself, even the evil man, for a purpose. The key to grasping this may come down to semantics thus: while we have no reason to believe that God causes us to be evil or wicked rather, he makes even the wicked to serve His purposes, perhaps to be a warning as they fall into calamity, or to teach us the depths of the horrors of sin, or, as in a certain pharaoh's case, to lift up His name while breaking down the idols of the nations.
Then, to further clarify this point we have this direct quote from God:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7

Even the Wicked One, though in full rebellion against God, will serve the purposes of the Creator, even while he glorifies himself against God and makes claims to be God. Even that person, the epitome of sin, is created by God, for a time and purpose.

I can give more references if you wish.

The image of God and how we portray it?
This is not clearly defined in scripture as a forthright statement.
So, we are left to work it out by reason and study.
I can understand having an aversion to correlating humankind with God, even in this way, but I do so because it is His statement, not my own. If it were not for that statement, we might fear to make such a comparison, but Father said it first.
While the image of God is heavily debated, you can loosely say that any attribute of mankind which animals do not possess, reflects an attribute of God, as it sets us apart from the animals. You can also start with defining attributes of God and correlate them back to human, non-animal attributes.
Perhaps Father left the specific definition of the statement out of His Word for our benefit that we might be encouraged to study and reason it, putting us in position to examine him and compare ourselves more thoroughly.

 

[disciple Clint]

@disciple Clint
Excellent points to question!
As @timothyu pointed out, mankind does have a tendency to re-define good and evil to suit our purposes, so the point can be fairly made that this statement is a matter of perspective, but I would disagree.
All creation, willingly or not, fulfills Father's purposes.
As I defend this point, let me clarify that I am not claiming that God is evil or wicked in any sense, but rather that everything, even that which we consider to be evil, serves Him, though that is not necessarily the intent of the agent.

We know from scripture that God has made all things for himself, even the evil man, for a purpose. The key to grasping this may come down to semantics thus: while we have no reason to believe that God causes us to be evil or wicked rather, he makes even the wicked to serve His purposes, perhaps to be a warning as they fall into calamity, or to teach us the depths of the horrors of sin, or, as in a certain pharaoh's case, to lift up His name while breaking down the idols of the nations.
Then, to further clarify this point we have this direct quote from God:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7

Even the Wicked One, though in full rebellion against God, will serve the purposes of the Creator, even while he glorifies himself against God and makes claims to be God. Even that person, the epitome of sin, is created by God, for a time and purpose.

I can give more references if you wish.

The image of God and how we portray it?
This is not clearly defined in scripture as a forthright statement.
So, we are left to work it out by reason and study.
I can understand having an aversion to correlating humankind with God, even in this way, but I do so because it is His statement, not my own. If it were not for that statement, we might fear to make such a comparison, but Father said it first.
While the image of God is heavily debated, you can loosely say that any attribute of mankind which animals do not possess, reflects an attribute of God, as it sets us apart from the animals. You can also start with defining attributes of God and correlate them back to human, non-animal attributes.
Perhaps Father left the specific definition of the statement out of His Word for our benefit that we might be encouraged to study and reason it, putting us in position to examine him and compare ourselves more thoroughly.

your understanding of Isa 45:7 is in error. Also God does not create evil people. Man can decide to be evil or good, he has free will. The image of God was provided to us by Jesus. You are correct that God uses all things for the accomplishment of good. Did God Create Evil? https://www.studylight.org/commentary/isaiah/45-7.html

 

[Phillip Huffman]

@disciple Clint, it would seem though that the article you mentioned is splitting hairs on the meaning of 'evil', given that the victims of calamity or any severe unpleasantness, even if God is merely trying to reprove them, or if it is the natural consequence of their actions, count it as evil. Perhaps then this links in with @timothyu's point about us redefining evil to suit our purposes."
I do agree that God does not create evil men - that's what I was trying to say actually, that rather, God makes the men that have chosen wickedness to serve His will, not that He makes them to become evil.

I should also point out that I'm not necessarily saying that every single evil event that occurs was planned by God or is being performed to fulfill some good purpose, though rather, to them that love God, he does work all things together for good, even evil things, but to those that do not love God, there is no such promise.

Let's take the question of evil to the extreme far end - the final enemy, death.
Some argue that God did not create death - which they argue because it is, reasonably, hard to see death as anything but evil - but I cannot find a defense for that in scripture. Yes, death entered the world through sin, but if God did not create death, then how does it exist? Death is a temporary construct or creation and is even personified to the point of being cast in to the lake of fire. So then, if God did not create death, where did it come from?
What about the lamb slain to make coats for Adam and Eve? Will we spiritualize it and say that God did not in fact kill a sheep to make those coats?
Or what about when God cursed the ground for Adam's sin? Was that not an evil curse?
The flood - was not the death of every other human on earth an evil thing?
The judgement in the time of tribulation, the execution of entire nations of peoples as Israel moved into the promised land, I could go on and on but the point is, God uses evil, or perhaps I should say, things that we perceive as evil, whether to halt the absolute wickedness of a nation, to set examples to guide the wayward, or to in some other way work His good will. He, being God, has the absolute authority and right to do so and in so doing, yet he works far greater good than these petty evils can ever measure up to. Even death, in the end, is merely a time of rest for believers and a passage into Heaven for us.
I must maintain that both good and evil serve my Father's good will.
This odd arrangement, evil serving good ends, is even shown in the nature of judgement in human government, which, while it is good in upholding righteousness, must sometimes exercise evils such as execution or imprisonment, in order to do so.
We could of course argue that all of these things are brought on by the wickedness of man, and there is a measure of truth in that statement, but it ignores the fact that nothing, nothing at all, not even death, prevails against the will of the Almighty.

I suppose the ultimate evil act was the murder of Christ.
Show from scripture where this horrifyingly evil event was not planned from the beginning of time?
To the contrary, God planned it all along, on purpose.
Is God evil for allowing murder and death? No, of course not.
These evil deeds served God's purpose there. Death is swallowed up in victory.

Question, what are the implications of these two conflicting points of view as you understand them?
I wonder if I'm overlooking something obvious...