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How much of this is true?

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countrymousenc

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thereselittleflower said:
countrymouse

I wasn't going to comment on your post here, in this thread, but after thinking about it I decided I should . .

You gave your reasons for seriously looking at Eastern Orthodoxy . .and you gave it as a process of elimination . . as much as I can agree with most of what you wrote about Protestantism and your reason for eliminating it, I found your reasons for eliminating Catholicism leaving much to be desired . .

I am not at all suggesting that you should not become Eatsern Orthodox . . I love the Eastern Orthodox Church - I grew up in it as a child . . I think you would love it too. :)

But you and I have come to two very different understandings of Church history . . . and one of us is wrong!

If you are eliminating Catholicism based on what you wrote above . . then you are misinformed about Catholicism and are eliminating it for the wrong reasons . .

I do NOT want to try to talk you out of becoming Orthodox . . I don't want you to misunderstand my intentions in making this post . . I want you to be aware of the poor understanding you have, as evidence by the inaccurate post you made, about Catholicism upon which you are basing some of your decisions . .

Please come to OBOB to talk about it with us . . then at least you will have more accurate information . .

:)


Peace in Him!


Hi thereselittleflower (and I like your name!). As I said to Bastoune, I'll be most happy to be corrected if I misrepresented anything. And I appreciate the invitation to come talk about it. It was not in any way my intent to start a debate with Roman Catholics, and I frankly feel that my conversation with my Orthodox friends has been invaded somewhat. But then this is a public forum. What I wrote represents my own personal struggle at this point in my spiritual journey. I do realize that my wording gives the impression that Roman Catholic clergy intentionally kept their laity in the dark. That may be misleading; I don't claim to know all the reasons why the Scriptures and liturgy were not translated in to the languages of the people. If I'm also wrong about the exclusive use of Latin, please correct me.

My main current objections to Roman Catholicism at present are: 1. the issue of the filioque clause - I believe the Orthodox Church is correct about that - and 2. The statement from Vatican II to which I referred.

Respectfully, and with only peaceful intent,
countrymouse
 
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Orthodox Andrew

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Since this thread has broken into an all out war, I may as well ask the Catholics a few question.;)

First let me start off by saying that I feel that the Roman Catholic Church is a wonderful Church full of many great truths, and I do not wish to seem anti-Catholic by these questions.:)



Many people consider the Catholic Church very corrupt in the past and a danger to the world for a few reasons. So I would just like to hear what Catholics have to say about the things?

1. The persecution of Galileo?
2. The sacking of Constantinople?
3. The Crusades?
4. Martin Luther starting his own faith due to the idea that the Pope was quite corrupt?
5. Popes that apparently got the Papal rule through connections and not through faith?
6. The idea that Rome has been against many human advancements including railroads?


P.S. I honestly am looking for the Catholic view on these issues, and I'm not really looking to debate.:)
 
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Oblio

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P.S. I honestly am looking for the Catholic view on these issues, and I'm not really looking to debate.

Out of fairness to them, perhaps you could ask the question in OBOB where they can answer without fear of debating. That is one of the purposes of their forum (and ours too). They usually are straightforward and fair when honest qestions are aked over there.
 
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Orthodox Andrew

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Oblio said:
Out of fairness to them, perhaps you could ask the question in OBOB where they can answer without fear of debating. That is one of the purposes of their forum (and ours too). They usually are straightforward and fair when honest qestions are aked over there.
I was afraid to because I thought it may have been looked upon as an attack. But now I will.:)
 
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Orthodox Andrew

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jeffthefinn said:
Goodness, Andreas as a new moderator you should be calming the waters and not stirring the pot to a boiling point. There is enough political intrigue in Orthodoxy to be an embarrassment so certain things should not be dredged up, IMHO.
Jeff the Finn
I'm still a trainee.:D

Plus, they were only questions I wished to learn the answers to.
 
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countrymousenc

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chanter said:
God is wonderful! Let's focus on Christ our God. His Church is Holy. We are not.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us and save us.

Amen to that, chanter!

Dear people,

I started this, never intending to cause a war to break out! If I may end my part of it - please do not start another debate over this!

After observing what happened, and after sleeping on it, I have come to a decision. Not a knee-jerk decision; I've been studying and praying over these matters for months. Here's my opinion, for what it's worth. The visible Church on earth is a divided house, divided due to human frailty and not representing any failure of Christ to guard His own. Within the visible Church on earth we find both real Christians and fakes, and it has always been that way. But, the real Christians, whether Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, Evangelical (the list goes on) are all children of our Mother, the victorious, holy, undivided and apostolic Church in Heaven.

There is a worldful of truly lost souls, watching us, who need to see that Christ is real, and that His disciples love each other and follow in His footsteps. In our present state, we're not helping them much.

To my Orthodox brothers and sisters (if I may call you such without offending; if not, I will be satisfied to call you friends): I admire your zeal and love for Orthodoxy. We Protestants have much to learn from you; keep publishing the parts of the story that we have been missing, for those parts are glorious. Please dialogue with us in love.

To my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters: I also admire your zeal and love for Catholicism. Please also dialogue with us in love. We can also learn much from you.

We, too, have things to offer, for Christ has not been idle among us these 500 years.

God's blessings to you all,
countrymouse
 
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Suzannah

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Dear Countrymouse,
I just wanted to say that I believe that everyone has the right to ALL the facts. I do not think that you "stirred" any pots with your questions. If your questions were disturbing to some, they may need a thicker skin. The Gospel is not fragile and it can withstand questioning. Unfortunately, as one of my Catholic brethren explained to me during my journey , right here at CF, "It ain't the Gospel that's fragile, it's EGOS". (Thank you forever, Kennyse! You're awesome!)

Every person is responsible for searching out the truth of what they believe and why they believe it. And it is absolutely appropriate that you would ask questions and be discerning of the answers. This is what God wants us to do. If we do not come to the same conclusions as others would have us do, we are then left with "following the Spirit" and we can only rely on our good minds that God gave us, and our common sense. If salvation were to depend on the theologians and church historians, then Hell would certainly be full. Glory be to God, that that is not the case, and salvation depends on Christ alone.

Love,
Suzannah
 
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JasonS

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Hello, I've been lurking for awhile but your question has brought me out of the shadows as I'm somewhat a student of history. I'll try and answer your questions as succinctly as possible since the issue are very long and complicated. :)

Andreas said:
Since this thread has broken into an all out war, I may as well ask the Catholics a few question.;)

First let me start off by saying that I feel that the Roman Catholic Church is a wonderful Church full of many great truths, and I do not wish to seem anti-Catholic by these questions.:)



Many people consider the Catholic Church very corrupt in the past and a danger to the world for a few reasons. So I would just like to hear what Catholics have to say about the things?

1. The persecution of Galileo?
2. The sacking of Constantinople?
3. The Crusades?
4. Martin Luther starting his own faith due to the idea that the Pope was quite corrupt?
5. Popes that apparently got the Papal rule through connections and not through faith?
6. The idea that Rome has been against many human advancements including railroads?


P.S. I honestly am looking for the Catholic view on these issues, and I'm not really looking to debate.:)

1. Ever wondered why Copernicus, a catholic priest, was never condemned but Galileo was for holding the exact same theories? It's because Galileo's academic enemies trapped him into moving into theology at a time when Protestants and Catholics were fighting the bitter 30 years war in Germany. The council of Trent expressly stated that only trained theologians could publicly expound on holy scripture. The Galileo myth is promoted by many secular media outlets, mainly atheists and other enemies of the church. Most scholarly history books will give you the true picture of what happened. The following website is good to get you started on the issue.

newoxfordreview.org/jun00/thomaslessl.html

2.The sacking of Constantinople was the unfortunate result of a dynastic dispute for the Byzantine throne, not for any religious reason. The Pope told the crusaders to go straight to Egypt but when the crusaders couldn't pay for the boats, the doge of Venice told them if they helped capture Zara from the Hungarians on the dalmatian coast then it would help pay their debt. This they did and were promptly excommunicated for it by the Pope. They convinced him to recind the verdict when the promised again to go straight to Egypt, but while in zara they came across an heir to the byzantine throne named Alexius. Alexius promised them all the riches they could imagine if only the crusaders would help him get the Byzantine throne. This they did, but when it came time for Alexius to pay, he blew the crusaders off. There wasn't enough money to pay them. To break an oath was a great insult and drove the crusaders berzerk. They then laid siege and sacked the city. Here's a great original source quote between the doge of Venice and Alexius before the siege:

"Alexis, what do you think you are going to do? Remember we have raised you from a very humble estate. We have made you lord and you not keep your agreement with us and crowned you emperor. Wiill you not keep you agreement with us and will you not do more?" " No," replied the emperor, " I will not do anything more." " No?" said the doge, " wretched boy, we have raised you from the mire,' and we will throw you into the mire again and be sure that I will do you all the injury that I can, from this time on."

3. The Crusades were called when the Byzantine emperor and Eastern Christians asked the Pope for help to fight the Turks. For 500 years the muslims have been conquering Christian lands. Spain had fallen, the Saracens had been moving up the Italian peninsula and the Turks had just had a major victory over the Byzantines at the battle of Manzikert. The Crusades were in every way a defensive war, an attempt to roll back muslim conquests and re-unite the two great churches.

4.Martin Luther was just one of many heretics throughout Church history. Are both Catholic and Orthodox corrupt since the heretic Arius said so at the council of Nicea? Or Nestorius? Or Marcion? Martin Luther himself at the time was no one special, just another monk from a backwater German university. But the Popes were in the hands of prominent Italian families such as the Medici's and Borgia's, all who hoped to use the papacy to unify Italy under their own families. They could care less what was going on in Germany. The problem wasn't that they taugh falsely but that they didn't teach at all and many local dioceses were falling into the hand of less than pious men. Luther himself didn't call the pope corrupt until he was excommunicated. His ideas were embraced by some german princes who wanted to usurp authority from the Catholic emperor and it was they who pressed the issue. Also of interest was that the protestants tried to get support for their position from the greek patriarch who promptly shot them down as heretics.

5. Yes some did get to be popes through connections just like some patriarchs got there through their connections, especially under the Ottoman Empire. These are very powerful offices which some people saw as a tool to advance the political aspirations of their families or principalities. It was under these men that the focus would shift from religious or pastoral duties to more political ones and when corruption would start to creep in. Again realized that they wouldn't teach religious corruption but would be too focused on secular politics to address problems that would pop up at the local level. But once things start to get out of hand, a council would be called to address the issues. This happens all the time, it's just that some people are too impatient to wait for it.

6. Rome has been at the forefront of much of the advances in Western Culture. Copernicus was a catholic priest, Popes funded classical learning and the founding of modern universities throughout Europe and much of the advances in mathematics were done by Catholic bishops in the middle ages, especially when Arabic learning was brought back to Europe after the crusades. Gregor Mendel, the 19th-century Catholic monk is regarded as the founder of modern genetics.
 
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thereselittleflower

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JasonS said:
Hello, I've been lurking for awhile but your question has brought me out of the shadows as I'm somewhat a student of history. I'll try and answer your questions as succinctly as possible since the issue are very long and complicated. :)



1. Ever wondered why Copernicus, a catholic priest, was never condemned but Galileo was for holding the exact same theories? It's because Galileo's academic enemies trapped him into moving into theology at a time when Protestants and Catholics were fighting the bitter 30 years war in Germany. The council of Trent expressly stated that only trained theologians could publicly expound on holy scripture. The Galileo myth is promoted by many secular media outlets, mainly atheists and other enemies of the church. Most scholarly history books will give you the true picture of what happened. The following website is good to get you started on the issue.

newoxfordreview.org/jun00/thomaslessl.html

2.The sacking of Constantinople was the unfortunate result of a dynastic dispute for the Byzantine throne, not for any religious reason. The Pope told the crusaders to go straight to Egypt but when the crusaders couldn't pay for the boats, the doge of Venice told them if they helped capture Zara from the Hungarians on the dalmatian coast then it would help pay their debt. This they did and were promptly excommunicated for it by the Pope. They convinced him to recind the verdict when the promised again to go straight to Egypt, but while in zara they came across an heir to the byzantine throne named Alexius. Alexius promised them all the riches they could imagine if only the crusaders would help him get the Byzantine throne. This they did, but when it came time for Alexius to pay, he blew the crusaders off. There wasn't enough money to pay them. To break an oath was a great insult and drove the crusaders berzerk. They then laid siege and sacked the city. Here's a great original source quote between the doge of Venice and Alexius before the siege:

"Alexis, what do you think you are going to do? Remember we have raised you from a very humble estate. We have made you lord and you not keep your agreement with us and crowned you emperor. Wiill you not keep you agreement with us and will you not do more?" " No," replied the emperor, " I will not do anything more." " No?" said the doge, " wretched boy, we have raised you from the mire,' and we will throw you into the mire again and be sure that I will do you all the injury that I can, from this time on."

3. The Crusades were called when the Byzantine emperor and Eastern Christians asked the Pope for help to fight the Turks. For 500 years the muslims have been conquering Christian lands. Spain had fallen, the Saracens had been moving up the Italian peninsula and the Turks had just had a major victory over the Byzantines at the battle of Manzikert. The Crusades were in every way a defensive war, an attempt to roll back muslim conquests and re-unite the two great churches.

4.Martin Luther was just one of many heretics throughout Church history. Are both Catholic and Orthodox corrupt since the heretic Arius said so at the council of Nicea? Or Nestorius? Or Marcion? Martin Luther himself at the time was no one special, just another monk from a backwater German university. But the Popes were in the hands of prominent Italian families such as the Medici's and Borgia's, all who hoped to use the papacy to unify Italy under their own families. They could care less what was going on in Germany. The problem wasn't that they taugh falsely but that they didn't teach at all and many local dioceses were falling into the hand of less than pious men. Luther himself didn't call the pope corrupt until he was excommunicated. His ideas were embraced by some german princes who wanted to usurp authority from the Catholic emperor and it was they who pressed the issue. Also of interest was that the protestants tried to get support for their position from the greek patriarch who promptly shot them down as heretics.

5. Yes some did get to be popes through connections just like some patriarchs got there through their connections, especially under the Ottoman Empire. These are very powerful offices which some people saw as a tool to advance the political aspirations of their families or principalities. It was under these men that the focus would shift from religious or pastoral duties to more political ones and when corruption would start to creep in. Again realized that they wouldn't teach religious corruption but would be too focused on secular politics to address problems that would pop up at the local level. But once things start to get out of hand, a council would be called to address the issues. This happens all the time, it's just that some people are too impatient to wait for it.

6. Rome has been at the forefront of much of the advances in Western Culture. Copernicus was a catholic priest, Popes funded classical learning and the founding of modern universities throughout Europe and much of the advances in mathematics were done by Catholic bishops in the middle ages, especially when Arabic learning was brought back to Europe after the crusades. Gregor Mendel, the 19th-century Catholic monk is regarded as the founder of modern genetics.
Hi Jason!

Welcome to CF! :)

Excellent Post!! :)

I think you should post this too over in OBBO!


Peace in Him!
 
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prodromos

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JasonS said:
Alexius promised them all the riches they could imagine if only the crusaders would help him get the Byzantine throne. This they did, but when it came time for Alexius to pay, he blew the crusaders off. There wasn't enough money to pay them. To break an oath was a great insult and drove the crusaders berzerk. They then laid siege and sacked the city.

Alexius promised to pay 200,000 silver marks, put up an army of to fight against Islam, assign 500 knights for life to guard the Holy Land, and he offered the submission of the Eastern Church in exchange for help in regaining the throne. He did not blow anyone off but did his best to pay them though the treasury lacked the funds and the people of Constantinople were none to pleased at having to pay the Crusaders for installing someone else on the throne. However, at a later stage, young Alexius was himself deposed by Alexius Ducas and was also strangled on his orders. The people of Constantinople rallied around their new leader and attempts were made to drive the Crusaders off. The Crusaders were still in debt to the Venetians and their food supplies were running out so they had little choice but to retake the city. It was at this point, nine months after they had arrived, that the sack of Constantinople occured.
 
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thereselittleflower

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prodromos said:
Alexius promised to pay 200,000 silver marks, put up an army of to fight against Islam, assign 500 knights for life to guard the Holy Land, and he offered the submission of the Eastern Church in exchange for help in regaining the throne. He did not blow anyone off but did his best to pay them though the treasury lacked the funds and the people of Constantinople were none to pleased at having to pay the Crusaders for installing someone else on the throne. However, at a later stage, young Alexius was himself deposed by Alexius Ducas and was also strangled on his orders. The people of Constantinople rallied around their new leader and attempts were made to drive the Crusaders off. The Crusaders were still in debt to the Venetians and their food supplies were running out so they had little choice but to retake the city. It was at this point, nine months after they had arrived, that the sack of Constantinople occured.
So . . what it all boils down to is that it had nothing to do with the Crusades . . and everything to do with politics outside the purpose of the Crusades .

But I am curious about something you posted . . you said Alexius offered submission of the Eastern Church . . . but to whom did he make that offer? And where do we find record of it?


Peace in Him!
 
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countrymousenc

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JasonS said:
4.Martin Luther was just one of many heretics throughout Church history. Are both Catholic and Orthodox corrupt since the heretic Arius said so at the council of Nicea? Or Nestorius? Or Marcion? Martin Luther himself at the time was no one special, just another monk from a backwater German university. But the Popes were in the hands of prominent Italian families such as the Medici's and Borgia's, all who hoped to use the papacy to unify Italy under their own families. They could care less what was going on in Germany. The problem wasn't that they taugh falsely but that they didn't teach at all and many local dioceses were falling into the hand of less than pious men. Luther himself didn't call the pope corrupt until he was excommunicated. His ideas were embraced by some german princes who wanted to usurp authority from the Catholic emperor and it was they who pressed the issue. Also of interest was that the protestants tried to get support for their position from the greek patriarch who promptly shot them down as heretics.

Ahem! My turn to object, and I think it's only fair. This is a very simplistic and somewhat biased account of the Lutheran Reformation. Perhaps you would be willing to post this in the PRE forum and allow the Lutherans to evaluate.
 
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