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How might Satan Mimic the Second Coming in the Clouds of Heaven?

TribulationSigns

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Huh?

It seems that you often neglect that "symbolism" is an integral part of these prophesies. That's why it says Christ is the Root, the Branch, and it speaks of Lambs and Wolves. Jesus Christ was sent, the messenger of the Covenant, to confirm these promises made (Luke 1:68-75). And we can see that Romans chapter 15 illustrates the promises made to the fathers, quoted from "this very Isaiah chapter 11", were fulfilled in Christ. He is the true Holy City come down from heaven which makes us the representation of the Holy City, New Jerusalem. It's not as cut and dried as it might first seem.

Romans 15:9-12
  • "And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
  • And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
  • And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
  • And again, Esaias (Isaiah) saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust."
This Root of Jesse prophecy, along with the comments about the reigning over Gentiles is directly from Isaiah 11 speaking of the same wolf and lambs.

Isaiah 11:1
  • "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:"
Isaiah 11:10
  • "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Romans chapter 15 declares to us that these prophecies of Isaiah 11 are fulfilled through Jesus Christ.

And if you will read Mark 16, we should also consider the other verses present too.

Isaiah 11:8
  • "And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den."
Harmonizes with Mark chapter 16, declaring the child of God can pick up serpents and cannot be hurt by them. The same symbolic principle is in view. The wolves, asp, goats, etc. are symbols of FALSE TEACHERS of the congregation among believers (child, lamb, etc.) Those baptized in the Spirit cannot be hurt by the serpent. For example, they can play in the serpent's den but will not be hurt (decieved). Nor the lamb be hurt by the wolf (even if he is in sheep's clothing). It's all the exact same principle of the "seal" or security placed upon the Child of God by faith in Christ.

Therefore, in Isaiah 65:23 reads:

Isa 65:25
(25) The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

The Holy Mountain speaks about all the nations of the Earth coming into the Kingdom of God (New Testament congregation) by the way of Jesus Christ since Pentecost! The language about israel and Judah being gathered from the four corners of the Earth refers to all of God's people (spiritual Israel). This is obviously a prophecy about Jesus Christ. He is the root of Jesse and the Branch of this kingdom.

Many people don't understand the full importance of these verses because they are confused about the language of the animals and children dwelling together. This is spiritual language, and all we have to do is search the scriptures to know what God has in mind. Wolves, leopards, lions, bears and snakes (asps and cockatrices) are used to describe Satan, his kingdom, and all those who follow him. Look these up yourself and learn to compare Scripture with Scripture. Your quoted interpretation isn't accurate because this is not what God is talking about.

..something to think about.
 
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DavidPT

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The wolf and the lamb shall feed together(Isaiah 65:25)

Even if it is a metaphor, maybe it is maybe it isn't, it still couldn't possibly be meaning something that is already applicable. The following, as one example, clearly proves it.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

This is something that obviously still applies to right now as well, meaning the time we are presently living in. This was already true in the first century and that it is still true today, meaning Matthew 7:15.

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together---They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain(Isaiah 65:25)


There is no way in a million years, in any sense, that this, not that anyone is claiming they are, so, I'm not claiming anyone is saying they are, I'm simply trying to make a point here in general---Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves--- is a description of this---The wolf and the lamb shall feed together---They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain. The point being, these things are a contradiction if both apply to the same era, rather than one applies to this present era, the other applies to the era after the 2nd coming. It is after the 2nd coming when this will be the case---The wolf and the lamb shall feed together---regardless whether that's meaning in or literal sense or is a metaphor.

The latter clearly involves lambs and wolves, the same thing the former is involving. Obviously then, in order for the latter to be true, even if both passages should be understood metaphorically, it has to at least be meaning after a time that the former is no longer true. Clearly, the time when the former is no longer true, it has not arrived yet. Not in the first century nor even up until now.
 
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Hammster

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Tldr. Isaiah 19 shows the cloud language as judgement. And elsewhere.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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No more death is a present reality in Christ.

I’d be curious to know where that is taught in scripture.
Revelation 21:1-4
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

No more death means no more death. Once eternity begins, in Revelation 21, we live forever and all the former things have passed away, forever. I think they will be possibly visible (burning hell) but so far away as to not influence us in the new heaven and new earth, but may serve as a visible reminder of the evil that used to exist both in the world and in us (our sinful nature). Perhaps light years away but like the light we see now in the sky from long ago. That sinful nature is gone forever in eternity in God's redeemed, angels, and Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Satan and his demons are burning literally in hell forever. What happens to the lost humans who never accept the Lord is a point of contention that is beyond the scope of Eschatology, so I won't even mention it. But those who are in eternity after the 1000 years (whether a symbolic or literal 1000 years) we are back to the conditions of Eden, with no sin, no death, no tears, no sufferring. We will be together with the Lord forever, both on Spirit and in resurrection bodies that will never age, never tire, never die. For us, the second death holds no power.

Don't all Christians believe in the eternal state, regardless of your eschatological views of how we get there? I thought I understood Historicists, Preterists (excluding full preterism which isn't orthodox or allowed on Christian Forums), Futurists and Idealists all agreed that an eternity is coming regardless of how we get there where we live forever in body and spirit in redeemed and resurrected bodies and serve the Lord forever without sin and without death, as Eden began originally. But Satan will be roasting far away with his demons and beyond the ability to influence us ever again. No more snakes in the garden of God's future Kingdom.
 
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parousia70

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Yes all Christians believe that, thanks to the saving work of Christ on the cross, we spend eternity in the presence of God after we die. Even full preterists
(IO adherents being the lone exception)
We simply differ on where, when and how that happens.

A lot of practical conundrum’s in your view that I can see right off the bat. Firstly, since eating from the the tree of life in the garden was necessary for eternal life both before and after the fall, We know Adam was not intrinsically immortal. Had he not fallen and chosen not to eat from the tree of life, which he was free to eat from or abstain from before the fall, he would have physically died.
The fall did not bring in physical death to the world. There were seasons with falling leaves, spiders, sharks, Venus fly traps etc… all Before the fall.

The fall brought in eternal separation from God as the consequence of physical death, It did not bring in physical death itself.

The Revelation 21 passage States that on the new heavens and earth, just outside the gates of the city are adulterers harlot monger’s liars fornicators and other sinners.

It also states that the gates of the city remain open and the spirit and bride call from inside the city to outside the city to all who thirst to come drink the water of life freely.

Since the already saved do not thirst for the water of life (one drink and you shall never thirst again) who are those there who are "thirsty" that you say the spirit and the bride are calling to from inside the cities gates on the new heavens and earth?

No more tears? So you’re saying we will not even be able to cry tears of joy? If no more death means no more death, then certainly No more tears means no more tears, right? It will be some sort of Prozac like existence? Not to joyful not to sorrowful, steady as she goes even keel eternity?

seems to me you have some issues that you yet need to reconcile with your own view before you can hope yo stand it up as a viable alternative to mine, as it appears very inconsistent.
 
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Freedm

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You're not answering the question. I'm just trying to understand what you mean by "dead in Christ". Can you explain that phrase to me?
 
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Freedm

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That was at the Cross.

Not 70AD.
I think it was 70 AD because of what Paul said here:

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armour of light.

By the time he said this Jesus had already been crucified and resurrected, yet the night was not over yet.
 
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Gottservant

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I’m not sure I understand your question.

If those in the past, faced the tribulation of their time, do they not now know: what the tribulation of our time will be (in principle)?

At least what it will be "like"?

The answer should be encouraging, not distancing?
 
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Hammster

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If those in the past, faced the tribulation of their time, do they not now know: what the tribulation of our time will be (in principle)?

At least what it will be "like"?

The answer should be encouraging, not distancing?
I have no idea what they know.
 
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Hammster

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But we know they went before us.

We know they did not love their lives to death.

And now we know that we must not love our lives to death, either?
Okay.
 
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Gottservant

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I just mean not only do we not have to "concern ourselves", we know why we need not be concerned.

"Fear not those who can destroy the body but not the soul, fear Him who after He has killed is able to throw into Hell" (from memory, gospels)

Another way of putting it is: "Fear not death as if it is out of the ordinary, fear losing through death that which keeps extra-ordinary "extra-ordinary""
 
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DavidPT

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Obviously, when the dead in Christ rise first, and the rapture that follows, eternity has begun for all of these. How could it not? Once someone becomes bodily immortal, if that is not an eternal state at that point, what state is it? If the thousand years follows the 2nd coming, which is what I believe to be the case, this would have to mean that the thousand years are the first thousand years of the eternal age, the fact there would already be those that have put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming. But not everyone puts on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming, though. Some are killed during the 2nd coming, some are spared during the 2nd coming, thus the latter remain mortal during the thousand years.
 
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Timtofly

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You're not answering the question. I'm just trying to understand what you mean by "dead in Christ". Can you explain that phrase to me?
I did. Us on earth are both dead and in Christ. Those in Paradise are alive and in Christ.
 
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Timtofly

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Yep, night is still nearly over. Nope it was not over in 70AD.
 
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Freedm

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Yep, night is still nearly over. Nope it was not over in 70AD.
But Paul said "the day is almost here". Surely you can't think 2000 years later is "almost here".

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armour of light.
 
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Timtofly

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But Paul said "the day is almost here". Surely you can't think 2000 years later is "almost here".

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over
; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armour of light.
I agree with Paul. The day is almost here. I would agree with him if I lived 50 years after he died. I would agree with him if I lived 350 years after he died. The time between me living and him dying does not change the truth of what he claimed. We are still in the darkness, until the Second Coming. God has not brought the world through the fire and out onto the other side yet.
 
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Freedm

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You would have to change the meaning of the word "almost". I'd rather not.
 
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