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How might Satan Mimic the Second Coming in the Clouds of Heaven?

Timtofly

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All this gymnastics is in your head.

I did not say sin and wickedness stopped. I said the Cross was the last day resurrection for those in Abraham's bosom. Unless you are defending dispensationalism, your gymnastics are pointless.

You really think there is no wickedness in this age, or the age before this, or the age before that one before this one?
 
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Timtofly

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Lol. The canon was closed by 70 AD. Who would write about it? Plus, John, Peter, Paul and James all wrote to warn about the coming tribulations that the church would soon be going through.
How can the Canon be closed by 70AD? Some books had not even been written yet.

I thought the OD was for the Jews to escape the coming tribulation. Why would the church worry about a carnal city called Jerusalem?
 
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Freedm

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I'm late to this party, so apologies if this has already been said but "the clouds" referenced in Matthew 24 (and elsewhere) are not literal clouds as we know them. Clouds are symbolic of power and authority. In other words, Matthew 24 is simply saying that Jesus will come with power and authority, which he did in 70 AD as he had received his power and authority just 40 years prior when he defeated death. This is why he says "the next time you see me I'll be coming in power [in the clouds of heaven]"

Here are some scriptural examples of how clouds are used to denote power and authority.

2 Samuel 22:7-14
He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.

Matthew 26:64-65
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Psalm 97:2
Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

Jeremiah 4:13-14
Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness , that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

Nahum 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Zephaniah 1:15-17
That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Revelation 10:1
Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

This last example is also interesting as it sounds like we're going to literally fly up into the clouds (even if it's a clear day?) but really what it's saying is that we'll be joining those who have already received their power.
 
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Freedm

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You're right that his coming is tied to the resurrection, but maybe we should look at this resurrection in a different way. Let me explain what I mean; Jesus said that if we believe in him we will never die. Do you believe this? (John 11:26) I do (as I'm sure we all do), but it can only truly make sense if we will never experience death, and that would have to mean our resurrection has already been granted. That is, not a future resurrection on the last day of planet earth, rather an instant resurrection when we leave this life to go to the next.

Most would say, "well that's just our spirits going to heaven while we wait for the resurrection" but that's completely nonsensical as a resurrection into a heavenly body is pointless if you're already in heaven in a heavenly body. Why would spirits in heaven long to be "reunited" with their physical bodies, as many Christians like to describe it? They wouldn't. And they don't. So this "going to heaven upon death" is not a temporary thing, but rather that is the main thing. That is the resurrection that Jesus was speaking of.
 
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Timtofly

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Posters here are the dead in Christ. Those in Paradise are alive in Christ.
 
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parousia70

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No NT writer confirmed fulfillment in the 1st century. Only Josephus declared prophecy fulfilled.

I disagree.
Revelation is nothing less than the apostolic eyewitness report of the then present arrival of the Great Tribulation and Day of the Lord.
Revelation 1:9-10
9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

John was instructed to write about the things that were (past tense), the things that ARE (present tense) and the things that were "about to take place"(near future tense). Revelation 1:19

The NT Day of the Lord was already underway when John testified he was a brother and partaker in it with his original audience.

The apostle John was indeed the NT writer who lived to confirm the 1st century fulfillment of the end time events, as Jesus knew he would be:

John 21:22
Jesus answered him, “If I want him to live until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!”
 
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Aldebaran

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What does "dead in Christ" mean to you?

From 1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ are believers who have died. Obviously, that's not us, at least not yet.
 
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Hammster

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How can the Canon be closed by 70AD? Some books had not even been written yet.

I thought the OD was for the Jews to escape the coming tribulation. Why would the church worry about a carnal city called Jerusalem?
All the books were written. And Jerusalem was representative of the old covenant. The church was closely associated with it (see Acts 15). But there was persecution all around. That’s why many of the epistles address the tribulation (even John, in the first verses of Revelation).
 
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AdamjEdgar

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Sorry but A.D 70 second coming doctrine is complete nonsense. Jesus did not come in A.D 70.

I have already presented irrefutable evidence that clearly illustrates that this was in fact related to Christianity spreading into Egypt. Check out biblehub.com "pulpit commentary" for Isaiah 19.
 
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parousia70

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Your argument appears to be with the apostles, not with me.

Irrefutably, at the AD 70 event, The Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of 1st century Israel and was the stone that crushed them to powder. Removing the kingdom for them and giving it to a new nation. Matthew 21:40-45
 
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Timtofly

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What does "dead in Christ" mean to you?
We are dead in our sin, while being in Christ. It is physical death. The difference between a corruptible body and an incorruptible body.

Accepting the Atonement places us in Christ. We did not get an incorruptible body when we accepted the Atonement.
 
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Timtofly

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So while John was on Patmos, he was an eyewitness of the 70AD event?

I agree he was an eyewitness to the Second Coming about to happen any day now. God did not take John in person as an eyewitness account of 70AD. That would have been the end of the church, period. We know that did not happen, because 1000 years can never be symbolic of 40 years.

The kingdom did not come to earth in 70AD. Neither Preterist, post mill, nor Amils accept any period of time between the final judgment of the OD and any "second" event. If Christ came in judgment, that would be it, the END!
 
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Timtofly

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By whose claim? More modern day scholars?
 
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parousia70

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So while John was on Patmos, he was an eyewitness of the 70AD event?

So, while John was on Patmos, he was not a fellow partaker in "The tribulation of Jesus Christ" during "the Day of the Lord"? Even though he said he was?

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

I agree he was an eyewitness to the Second Coming about to happen any day now.

When you say "about to happen" do you mean the same thing the apostles meant when they said it? or do you mean something different?

Aren't you among those who claim "about to happen" = thousands of years away?
 
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parousia70

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That would have been the end of the church, period.

Except for:
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen
Ephesians 3:21

Happy to loan you a Sharpie if, to keep your doctrine intact, you need to redact this verse from your Bible...
 
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Freedm

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So dead in Christ means physically dead?
 
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Freedm

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The kingdom did not come to earth in 70AD. Neither Preterist, post mill, nor Amils accept any period of time between the final judgment of the OD and any "second" event. If Christ came in judgment, that would be it, the END!
It was the end. The end of the age of darkness.

Isaiah 9:2
The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned.

Isaiah 42:16
I will turn the darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them.

John 1:5
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

John 3:19-21
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armour of light.

Ephesians 5:8
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
 
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Aldebaran

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Which new nation did He give it to?
 
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