How many will burn?

[Reformationist]

So then it is the fact that God exists outside of time and knows who will be saved and acts on it, it seems

No. God's decision is not the product of seeing time as a whole and deciding appropriately. If the only thing God did was "look down through the annals of time" he would see nothing more than wholesale rejection. God "knows who will be saved" because it is in them that He works His divine work of regeneration.

God did not decide who to save because He "saw" that they would make the right choice. If that were the case we would be saved because of making the right decision and would clearly have something to boast about.

God saved a people for His Son to glorify His Son. It had nothing to do with any decision they would make.

God bless

 

[blessedbe]

Well, to be honest, I don't know how long the punishment will last for those who are condemned. I've never studied it enough to form any opinion other than, "I don't want to be there." Sorry, I'm of little help on the eternal punishment thing.

LOL I guess that's where i need to be.....

It was the same for me, though I must say that the idea of human autonomy never sat well with me and I always questioned it.

I just can't believe that God would put it all into our own hands like that....boys would the world be in trouble!! he he he

Calvinists have always professed the accuracy of man's free agency. Reformed teaching doesn't teach that men are automatons who don't make decisions. We do. We are rational creatures who make decisions. However, these decisions never happen apart of the divine providential control of God

.


I totally understand that. I think the free-will camp just doesn't want to see that, it's so "logical"! lol

LOL! Sure, it makes perfect sense. The only way that we will fully be able to acknowledge our fallen state is if we view our life in light of the perfect obedience of Christ. Christ kept the Law perfectly. Anything less than what Christ did is imperfect. In biblical terms, imperfect obedience denotes the presence of sin. God is a holy God and sin is nothing less than cosmic treason. We, as created beings, have a propensity to catagorize sin. We say stealing is not as bad as murder. We say lying to a friend is not as bad as physically assaulting a friend. To God, sin is sin. So, if you want to get a better understanding of your own fallenness, compare your obedience to the obedience of Christ. Anything short of perfect obedience has merited the wrath of a holy God.

easier said then done!!

Well, it is a difficult thing to submit to but the reason it is difficult is because humans are inherently prideful. If we end up in hell we want to say that we go there because we chose to go there. The flip side of that is, of course, that if we end up in Heaven we end up there because we chose to go there which diminishes the great sacrifice of Christ on our behalf and the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit and, in turn, elevates our own self.

Again, I totally understand!!! You put this so very well!!


God bless

 

[nb_christseeker]

as for eternal punishment, the same word is used to describe eternal life in the bible. so if you want to assume that eternal life has an ending point, then you can say eternal punishment has an ending point. but hell was made for satan, and the original rebelling demons, and for the false prophet (etc). They are the leaders of the treason, and their end is eternal forever unending damnation where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. They in turn deceive people, who ignore the evidence of God, who don't care that they've broken his law, and who have rejected the message of the gospel, that Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead. All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved, but some would rather die than call on Jesus for help. That's pride. As for freewill, our free will is used to either turn our will over to God or to control our own lives. Everyone agrees that Jesus was a nice guy. He was loving, compassionate, caring, etc. That was the example of a person who completely turned his will over to the Father. If we completely turn our will over to the Father, we will live like Christ (in type, not in degree, because we are in sinful flesh). So those who describe God as a bad puppeteer who steals our free will but call Christ a nice loving wise rabbi are failing to see the illogic in their reasoning. God wants us to bear fruit, to love others. Our fruit is our love for others, we make money, we give it to others. That's an example of fruit. We have time, we use it to listen to and encourage others. That's a fruit. If every single person in the world saw their job in life as bearing fruit for others, the world would be a happier place. But that won't happen until the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. And that's gonna be awesome.

 

[shawn_h76]

Yes, anbody and everybody can choose salvation. God does not choose some people to go to hell, and spares others to go heaven.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


john3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Luke 5
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[Reformationist]

Yes, anbody and everybody can choose salvation. God does not choose some people to go to hell, and spares others to go heaven.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


john3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Every one of those verses says "whosoever." If I go into a room with 10 people, 5 of whom are deaf and blind, and say "whosoever comes up to the front of the room can have a million dollars" it doesn't mean that everyone is equally capable of complying. What you, unfortunately, fail to acknowledge is that it is the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit in us that opens our eyes and ears and gives us the desire to comply, so we do. "Whosoever" doesn't mean "anbody and everybody can choose salvation." That's just anthropocentric reasoning, nothing more.

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do you read what you post? That verse says that the Lord is "longsuffering toward US." God is longsuffering and endures the sinfulness of humanity that He may gather unto Himself ALL of His elect, some of whom aren't even born. Look here:

Romans 9:22-24
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God endures "with much longsuffering" the evil of the reprobate that He may make known the "riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy."

2 Peter 3:9 tells us clearly that it is those to whom He made the promise, i.e., whosoever believes, that He is not willing to parish. Look at the beginning of 2 Peter:

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

This epistle is directed at Christians who are suffering persecution and Peter is telling them that God endures the iniquity of humanity that He may have mercy on all of His elect. Free will advocates love this verse yet they pay very little attention to what the verse actually says. It says that God is longsuffering "toward US." He doesn't want any of US to perish. Who is "US?" It's those who have obtained the same faith as Peter "by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Luke 5
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Umm...great. Jesus is calling sinners to repentance. I'm not at all sure how you thought this verse meant that "anbody and everybody can choose salvation." Do you believe that if God calls someone to repentence He is required to enable them to repent? If so, I'd love to see what verses you use to validate that.

God bless

 

[shawn_h76]

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



The Gospel: God came unto the earth, died for our sins, and rose from the dead. Whosever believes this shall never perish but have eternal life.

ok lets study 2 peter 3:9. If 2 peter 3:9 was talking about the saved why would it say, but that all should come to repentance.. Havent the saved already repented?

John 6
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
cant be any planier than that.

Salvation is not as complicated as men make it. It takes about 2 second for somebody to be saved. (literally)

Pleas explain this verse.
John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

or this one.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
now lets look at the words in this verse.
romans10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The word whosoever, in greek, PAS, means: all, any, every, all men, everyman, everything, all means.

Before Jesus died, mostly everybody went to hell. Why did Jesus free all of them when he descended to hell?

epshesians4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Anybody can see that everybody who has ever lived, their names are written in the book of life. When you die without jesus your name is blotted out.

Revelation 3
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
And how to we overcome? By the blood of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 12
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death
And can everybody call upon the name of the Lord and be cleanse from their sins by the blood of the lamb?
1 John 1
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1 john 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Do you like it when you drive by some teenagers and just think to yourself," wow im so glad God chose me to go to heaven and these poor chaps are going to hell".
its funny first, but in all reality you should be dead afraid preaching this false doctrine from the pit of hell.

Revelation 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Another thing to think about, the last thing satan wants is people repenting from their sins and truning to the Lord Jesus. Wouln't the devil start a doctrine stating that not everybody could be saved?

 

[blessedbe]

Another thing to think about, the last thing satan wants is people repenting from their sins and truning to the Lord Jesus. Wouln't the devil start a doctrine stating that not everybody could be saved?

I'm not sure what you are getting at here....are we telling people to not bother???? No, I don't think so. That's not what we are saying at all, and not what I believe certainly.

This is how i feel, personally, and I won't presume to speak for anyone else. I feel a burden, SINCE I have become a christian, that I have a responsibility as a christian, to do as Christ commanded and speak the Gospel. I have no idea how God will use me, and even if He is using me now to speak to someone who is not saved yet, but will be. I cannot be lax in my duty as a christian, for He is using me. I am a vessel for Him. Now that I am a christian, I have responsibilities. I am remembering the parable about the slaves who were given money while the master was gone, and how 2 of them went out and made more money, but the 3rd hid his. The master was not happy when he came back and found out the 3rd had not used his money wisely. This obviously is in reference to the gifts God gives us. He expects us to USE them.

I do not see how pre-destination is advocating ANYTHING like what you say in the above quote.

Do you like it when you drive by some teenagers and just think to yourself," wow im so glad God chose me to go to heaven and these poor chaps are going to hell".

That statement is totally uncalled for. I can assure you that we do not think this way at all, and your assumption is rude.

 

[Reformationist]

shawn_h76, I've seen, in other threads, how you ignore it when people show you the errors in your posts. You combat this with long-winded, illogical, overformatted posts. Debating with you is clearly an exercise in futility.

Good luck and God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I'm not sure what you are getting at here....are we telling people to not bother???? No, I don't think so. That's not what we are saying at all, and not what I believe certainly.

This is how i feel, personally, and I won't presume to speak for anyone else. I feel a burden, SINCE I have become a christian, that I have a responsibility as a christian, to do as Christ commanded and speak the Gospel. I have no idea how God will use me, and even if He is using me now to speak to someone who is not saved yet, but will be. I cannot be lax in my duty as a christian, for He is using me. I am a vessel for Him. Now that I am a christian, I have responsibilities. I am remembering the parable about the slaves who were given money while the master was gone, and how 2 of them went out and made more money, but the 3rd hid his. The master was not happy when he came back and found out the 3rd had not used his money wisely. This obviously is in reference to the gifts God gives us. He expects us to USE them.

I do not see how pre-destination is advocating ANYTHING like what you say in the above quote.



That statement is totally uncalled for. I can assure you that we do not think this way at all, and your assumption is rude.

Wonderful post blessedbe. You are humble about your understanding of these great doctrines of grace. You have grasped them better than most people I know. Well done.

Blessings to you.

God bless,
Don

 

[blessedbe]

Wonderful post blessedbe. You are humble about your understanding of these great doctrines of grace. You have grasped them better than most people I know. Well done.

Blessings to you.

God bless,
Don

You are TOO kind!!

 

[shawn_h76]

shawn_h76, I've seen, in other threads, how you ignore it when people show you the errors in your posts. You combat this with long-winded, illogical, overformatted posts. Debating with you is clearly an exercise in futility.

Good luck and God bless

Hello Reformationist,

You haven't corrected anything in my post so far. If you actually read my post, you would see the doctine of predestinaiton is from the very pits of hell.

Please just explain this simple verse to me and all of christian forums.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Now lets take a couple of the words in john 3:16 and examine them, first the word WORLD in the greek that translates all creation, hmmmmm, the word should translates choice as in you should not or should do that. hmmmmm

Luke 5
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
last time i check all men were sinners.

 

[nb_christseeker]

from an eternal perspective, God knows who is saved and who is not. There is the book of life, and certain people are written in it, and certain people are not. He created some people in it, and some people not in it.

from a human perspective in the present, it all plays itself out in evangelizing, free will, choice, grace, discipleship, etc.

The reason it is so confusing is it is just like quantum physics, which God also made: Its like is light a particle or a wave? Its both. Is matter a particle or a wave? Its both. If you observe it in a way that lends itself to being seen as a wave, it behaves as a wave, and vice versa. You can't view light as both a particle and wave at the same time in quantum physics and leave with anything reasonable, and you can't think about predestination and freewill at the same time and leave without a headache. They're irreconcilable to man's mind, just like quantum physics is totally out of this world and nearly impossible to understand. But God MADE it all, and completely understands how freewill and predestination reconcle with one another. We have to trust him.

So from the wave (unseen, eternal) perspective, its all predestination. From the particle (seen, present) perspective, its all freewill.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Reformationist,I am quite confused after reading these messages,both cannot be right.I too,state emphatically that:"Whosoever WILL MAY COME."God gave us free will,and if God knows beforehand how we will choose,it is NOT because God made us choose how He decrees,but because of HIS OMNISCIENCE to know all our thoughts and hears our decisions.We have free will to say YES to GOD and Salvation,or to go OUR OWN WAY,without God.According to God`s Word,HELL is a place WITHOUT GOD and His Mercy.Sincere greetings from Emmy,a sister in Christ.

 

[Reformationist]

You haven't corrected anything in my post so far.

shawn, judging by your responses I'd have to say it's probably a safe bet that, in your opinion, no one has ever corrected you.

If you actually read my post, you would see the doctine of predestinaiton is from the very pits of hell.

I'm sure God will be happy to hear that you believe such a significant part of His revelation is from "the very pits of hell."

Please just explain this simple verse to me and all of christian forums.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Now lets take a couple of the words in john 3:16 and examine them, first the word WORLD in the greek that translates all creation, hmmmmm, the word should translates choice as in you should not or should do that. hmmmmm

LOL! What did you do, spend five minutes studying this and come up with "hmmmmm?" Let's start from the beginning. What is the Greek word used in John 3:16 translated "world" and what source are we using to define the Greek?

Luke 5
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
last time i check all men were sinners.

I never said that Jesus doesn't command obedience from all people. Here's an idea: How about you respond to what I actually post? Just because Jesus tells everyone to repent doesn't mean that everyone will do it, right? So, the question we have to ask ourselves is why do some repent and some don't? What is your take on that? Please try not to post some ridiculously formatted response. It never helps make your point and it just makes it annoying to read.

God bless

 

[Faith In God]

Dear Reformationist,I am quite confused after reading these messages,both cannot be right.I too,state emphatically that:"Whosoever WILL MAY COME."God gave us free will,and if God knows beforehand how we will choose,it is NOT because God made us choose how He decrees,but because of HIS OMNISCIENCE to know all our thoughts and hears our decisions.We have free will to say YES to GOD and Salvation,or to go OUR OWN WAY,without God.According to God`s Word,HELL is a place WITHOUT GOD and His Mercy.Sincere greetings from Emmy,a sister in Christ.

not to start a fierce argument, but God is as present in hell as He is on earth, according to psalms.

 

[Reformationist]

Dear Reformationist,I am quite confused after reading these messages,both cannot be right.

That's true. They aren't both right.

I too,state emphatically that:"Whosoever WILL MAY COME."

Okay. I do as well. If you feel that "whosoever" means that everyone is equally capable of coming to Christ then let us look at that. It says "whosoever will..." Now, who will come?

God gave us free will,and if God knows beforehand how we will choose,it is NOT because God made us choose how He decrees,but because of HIS OMNISCIENCE to know all our thoughts and hears our decisions.

Why does God know ahead of time? Is it because He's a good guesser? Is it because He can see all of eternity at the same time? Is it because, as our Creator, God knows the disposition of our inclinations? What's your belief on why God knows how we will choose? Also, do you believe there is anything about fallen man that dictates how he will ALWAYS choose?

We have free will to say YES to GOD and Salvation,or to go OUR OWN WAY,without God.

Emmy, what do you mean by "free will?" I ask because the label is tossed around so much that many disagreements are the result of using the term differently and I'd like to avoid that. By "free will" do you merely mean that we are able to make decisions or do you actually mean that our will is free from external influence?

According to God`s Word,HELL is a place WITHOUT GOD and His Mercy.

Okay. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Sincere greetings from Emmy,a sister in Christ.

Sincere greetings to you as well, my sister in Christ.

God bless,
Don

 

[shawn_h76]

not to start a fierce argument, but God is as present in hell as He is on earth, according to psalms.

Thats true.
But hell will not last forever its only a holding place for the lake of fire . The lake of fire will last forever.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Faith In God]

Thats true.
But hell will not last forever its only a holding place for the lake of fire . The lake of fire will last forever.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

perhaps the destruction could come about as a direct result of the presense of the Lord, if you look at that verse in this way. let's not argue over what color ink the bible was written in, shall we?

I know arguments for both sides, but my point is that saying hell is merely the absense of God is not entirely biblical.

 

[shawn_h76]

If anybody wants to see the future of the UNSAVED.

http://amightywind.com/hell/lakeoffire.htm

Thats why we need to tell people about Jesus.

 

[Faith In God]

If anybody wants to see the future of the UNSAVED.

http://amightywind.com/hell/lakeoffire.htm

Thats why we need to tell people about Jesus.

see? he agrees with me. hell is not merely God's absence