How many will burn?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

what do you think? I know what i think, but i want to hear your take on that.

As you wish. The surrounding scripture of the passage seems to indicate reassurance, as if to say that those who truly try are truly safe. The choices we make can directly affect who hears what; however, if someone is going to come to God, they will. Nevertheless, this does not take away any significance in our task of spreading the word. It is through us that God works. If one person fails, God does not; He can work through another. I know this is somewhat general, but it is a very hard area to talk about.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

According to my own understanding of God, no one will burn in hell. My base is that:

a) Hell is more a Christian tradition than a defined "state" or "place"

b) I don't believe in a God who relishes in torture

c) I believe that all humankind will find peace in afterlife.

So there: 0% of 4 billion ppl!

Unbiblical. A small example- Matthew 5:22- But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

God doesn't delight in torture, and Hell wasn't even made for us. But those who sin will die. God wouldn't be holy if He allowed them to go unpunished.

Once again, the Bible doesn't agree. Read Revelation

There are over 6 billion around today, much more if you count those dead.

 

[Faith In God]

As you wish. The surrounding scripture of the passage seems to indicate reassurance, as if to say that those who truly try are truly safe. The choices we make can directly affect who hears what; however, if someone is going to come to God, they will. Nevertheless, this does not take away any significance in our task of spreading the word. It is through us that God works. If one person fails, God does not; He can work through another. I know this is somewhat general, but it is a very hard area to talk about.

thank you. predestination is so hard to talk about without so much clarification, isn't it? I agree.

 

[Reformationist]

It all works out

Thank God for His faithfulness in the face of our habitual covenant breaking.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

then why are we called to witness?

We are called to witness because God has graciously granted us the opportunity to be involved in the gathering of His flock. We don't determine who that flock is, we are just blessed enough to help round them up. We spread the Word to all without distinction because God has ordained that evangelism is one of the primary methods He uses to return the sheep to the Shepherd. And, of course, we can neither see the reality of someone's disposition with the Father nor can we determine if God has elected them unto salvation.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

According to my own understanding of God, no one will burn in hell.

Unfortunately that is completely unbiblical. Many Christians like to consider and appreciate the love of God while steering clear of His other attributes like holiness, which, I believe, every other attribute of God only stands to magnify.

My base is that:

a) Hell is more a Christian tradition than a defined "state" or "place"

Wrong again. Hell is the eternal destination for those who die as children of wrath.

b) I don't believe in a God who relishes in torture

It is not torturous for God to punish the wickedness of sinners. It is just. Those who are saved receive mercy at the hands of a merciful God. Those who are condemned to hell receive justice at the hands of an equally just and holy God. No one is subject to injustice at the hands of God.

c) I believe that all humankind will find peace in afterlife.

Again, this is completely unbiblical. The vessels of God's wrath created for destruction will never be at peace with God.

Remember, sin is nothing less than cosmic treason to our holy God. He is perfectly justified in loosing His wrath against that inequity.

Universalism is the doctrine that satan would have us believe, i.e., it doesn't matter what you believe so long as you're sincere. Unfortunately, my friend, there are children of God and there are enemies of God. Those who have been blessed to be His children will enjoy the fruits of His love; Those who are His enemy will procure nothing less than the all consuming wrath of the holy God.

God bless

 

[lucaspa]

We don't know how many will burn, only Our Father knows that. But today, the churches are reaching out to the world and teaching. Those who believe will be saved. Those who reject Jesus cannot be.

You just said that only Our Father knows who will be saved. Then you presume to speak for Him by saying those who reject Jesus cannot be. What if God decides differently? What if He takes into account extenuating circumstances? Are you then going to tell God that He did wrong?

 

[shawn_h76]

Many. Only few will find life .

For whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved(romans 10:13)

Of cousre this is no joke. Eternity is a long time, those in the lake of fire will be there for eternity, tourmented day and night never ending fire weeping and ghasing of teeth.

thats why we need to tell people about Jesus.
But, SOME OR MOST christians these days make comments like this,
" my daddy makes fun of my faith "
or
"my friends laugh when i talk about Jesus "
or
"God has good plans for my life, im just going to....do nothing "
or
" Im a Jesus freak woo-hoo! JEsus-freak, yet I don't like talking about Jesus woo-hoo!, freak for Jesus right here"
or
" The devil is saying i blapshmed the holy spirit, im so scared "
last but not least
" i don't know much about the bible, so im not going to take the soul-saving message of Jesus christ to the lost"

• James 1
  22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
• romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
  15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

our MAIN purpose on earth.

matthew 28:19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[Asar'el]

You just said that only Our Father knows who will be saved. Then you presume to speak for Him by saying those who reject Jesus cannot be. What if God decides differently? What if He takes into account extenuating circumstances? Are you then going to tell God that He did wrong?

We can speak with confidence what God has declared; it would be foolish to start wondering 'what if'.

What if God decided to stop thinking about us, and we pop out of existence? For by Him we consist!

Of course, it comes down to what you believe He has declared, doesn't it?

Christ said,

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

What use is us speculating 'what if'?

 

[shawn_h76]

Christ said,

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

QUOTE]
that verse is talking about the unsaved.

hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[blessedbe]

Personally, I have a hard time reconsciling pre-destination and hell as most teach it, as a hell-fire, torturous, everlasting, all-consuming state.

It doesn't make sense that God would pre-determine who becomes christians and who becomes vessels of wrath, and then send them to hell to burn in torture forever when these 'vessels of wrath' really don't have a "say" in it.

Yet, I've become more and more Calvinistic in my thinking lately. I just can't ignore the verses that prove God is in control of EVERYTHING, even our salvation.

I'm leaning more and more towards a non-eternity type of hell, myself. I think that God will punish, both the christians and non-christians, just in a different way, but I can't see that it will be ever-lasting.

Can any of you Calvinists help me understand better? How do you reconscile this?

 

[nb_christseeker]

According to my own understanding of God, no one will burn in hell. My base is that:
a) Hell is more a Christian tradition than a defined "state" or "place"
b) I don't believe in a God who relishes in torture
c) I believe that all humankind will find peace in afterlife.
So there: 0% of 4 billion ppl!

are you just trying to bait me?

re-read matthew.

 

[Reformationist]

It doesn't make sense that God would pre-determine who becomes christians and who becomes vessels of wrath, and then send them to hell to burn in torture forever when these 'vessels of wrath' really don't have a "say" in it.

This [predestination] is a very difficult thing for so many Christians because they don't truly view those who are mercifully restored or those who are condemned to hell as vessels created by God for His glory, nor do they have a proper understanding of man's fallen disposition, i.e., his depravity. We, as rational creations, often believe that "having a say in it" is our right so the idea that God would predestine goes against what we think is fair. The thing to remember, at least from the Christian perspective, is that the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy have earned eternal damnation so God is not unjust if He executes His wrath against any or all of those who have transgressed His Law.

Yet, I've become more and more Calvinistic in my thinking lately. I just can't ignore the verses that prove God is in control of EVERYTHING, even our salvation.

Well, then count your blessings. One of the wonderful fruits of believing that God is sovereign over His creation is that we don't wonder about if things had been different. Things are the way they are because God hath ordained, from all eternity, whatsoever comes to pass.

Can any of you Calvinists help me understand better? How do you reconscile this?

That help at all? Remember, the first step in truly understanding and appreciating the mercy of God in saving us is understanding that from which we've been saved. So, I encourage you to study and seek to understand man's fallen state so that you can understand His mercy. If you need any more help feel free to ask.

God bless

 

[nb_christseeker]

You just said that only Our Father knows who will be saved. Then you presume to speak for Him by saying those who reject Jesus cannot be. What if God decides differently? What if He takes into account extenuating circumstances? Are you then going to tell God that He did wrong?

God provided one way, one atonement, that is belief in Jesus. Read John 3. If someone rejects Jesus as their King and Savior, they suffer in hell, its simple, elegant, and efficient. Before Jesus came along, everyone was going to hell cuz we've all sinned. Jesus came to "save" the world, not condemn it. Get with the program... =)

forgive me, i just got off a 10hr workday and its 3am. =)

 

[nb_christseeker]

i love you guys

 

[blessedbe]

[

QUOTE=Reformationist]This [predestination] is a very difficult thing for so many Christians because they don't truly view those who are mercifully restored or those who are condemned to hell as vessels created by God for His glory, nor do they have a proper understanding of man's fallen disposition, i.e., his depravity. We, as rational creations, often believe that "having a say in it" is our right so the idea that God would predestine goes against what we think is fair. The thing to remember, at least from the Christian perspective, is that the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy have earned eternal damnation so God is not unjust if He executes His wrath against any or all of those who have transgressed His Law.

I'm just having a hard time getting my brain around the whole eternal torturous hell thing. I understand that we all deserve punishment, and believe me, I am eternally(no pun intended) grateful that God has chosen me, but I just don't see the point in eternal punishment.

Well, then count your blessings. One of the wonderful fruits of believing that God is sovereign over His creation is that we don't wonder about if things had been different. Things are the way they are because God hath ordained, from all eternity, whatsoever comes to pass.

I think alot of peace in my own life is due to this knowledge. Personally, I think I have always believed in pre-destination, but I was always taught free-will and never really questioned it until I really started to mature in my faith. At that point I realized that we only have an allusion of free-will, and our free-will is really very limited. I do believe we have it to a certain extent.

That help at all? Remember, the first step in truly understanding and appreciating the mercy of God in saving us is understanding that from which we've been saved. So, I encourage you to study and seek to understand man's fallen state so that you can understand His mercy. If you need any more help feel free to ask.

Maybe this is what is hard to understand. Not to try to make myself out to be soo good and all, but I have never been a rebellious type, I've never done anything "bad", I've never even really doubted my christian upbringing. I'm a positive person who wants only to see the good in people, i've been taken advantage because of this tendency(I think the term is niave and gullible right?) and I'm generally happy and content all the time. Maybe this is why I have a hard time understanding "man's fallen state" as you put it. Maybe if I had been this hard core atheist, drug addict, mean person who found the Lord, I would understand a bit more about it! LOL Does that make ANY sense at all???????

I'm not denying God's justness in punishment, nor His right to do as He pleases, I just personally cannot reconscile an "everlasting" hell with pre-destination. I think that is why so many people are so taken with "free-will", then they feel justified in the belief in hell-fire and brimstone. After all, if you have free-will, YOU put yourself in hell, and not God. But if you come to realize that God chooses who comes to Him and who doesn't, you tend to get real squeemish about the idea of God throwing people into hell. It's quite the quandry......

Thanks for your imput

God bless[/QUOTE]

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

According to Romans 8:

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

It was only those He foreknew that He predestined, so it still is a choice. After all, Jesus wants to save everyone. So in a sense, it is a choice, and in another sense, it is predestination. According to the passage, nobody going to hell was foreknew to want to be with God

 

[Faith In God]

According to Romans 8:

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

It was only those He foreknew that He predestined, so it still is a choice. After all, Jesus wants to save everyone. So in a sense, it is a choice, and in another sense, it is predestination. According to the passage, nobody going to hell was foreknew to want to be with God

So then it is the fact that God exists outside of time and knows who will be saved and acts on it, it seems

 

[Reformationist]

I'm just having a hard time getting my brain around the whole eternal torturous hell thing. I understand that we all deserve punishment, and believe me, I am eternally(no pun intended) grateful that God has chosen me, but I just don't see the point in eternal punishment.

Well, to be honest, I don't know how long the punishment will last for those who are condemned. I've never studied it enough to form any opinion other than, "I don't want to be there." Sorry, I'm of little help on the eternal punishment thing.

I think alot of peace in my own life is due to this knowledge. Personally, I think I have always believed in pre-destination, but I was always taught free-will and never really questioned it until I really started to mature in my faith.

It was the same for me, though I must say that the idea of human autonomy never sat well with me and I always questioned it.

At that point I realized that we only have an allusion of free-will, and our free-will is really very limited. I do believe we have it to a certain extent.

Calvinists have always professed the accuracy of man's free agency. Reformed teaching doesn't teach that men are automatons who don't make decisions. We do. We are rational creatures who make decisions. However, these decisions never happen apart of the divine providential control of God.

Maybe this is what is hard to understand. Not to try to make myself out to be soo good and all, but I have never been a rebellious type, I've never done anything "bad", I've never even really doubted my christian upbringing. I'm a positive person who wants only to see the good in people, i've been taken advantage because of this tendency(I think the term is niave and gullible right?) and I'm generally happy and content all the time. Maybe this is why I have a hard time understanding "man's fallen state" as you put it. Maybe if I had been this hard core atheist, drug addict, mean person who found the Lord, I would understand a bit more about it! LOL Does that make ANY sense at all???????

LOL! Sure, it makes perfect sense. The only way that we will fully be able to acknowledge our fallen state is if we view our life in light of the perfect obedience of Christ. Christ kept the Law perfectly. Anything less than what Christ did is imperfect. In biblical terms, imperfect obedience denotes the presence of sin. God is a holy God and sin is nothing less than cosmic treason. We, as created beings, have a propensity to catagorize sin. We say stealing is not as bad as murder. We say lying to a friend is not as bad as physically assaulting a friend. To God, sin is sin. So, if you want to get a better understanding of your own fallenness, compare your obedience to the obedience of Christ. Anything short of perfect obedience has merited the wrath of a holy God.

I'm not denying God's justness in punishment, nor His right to do as He pleases, I just personally cannot reconscile an "everlasting" hell with pre-destination. I think that is why so many people are so taken with "free-will", then they feel justified in the belief in hell-fire and brimstone. After all, if you have free-will, YOU put yourself in hell, and not God. But if you come to realize that God chooses who comes to Him and who doesn't, you tend to get real squeemish about the idea of God throwing people into hell. It's quite the quandry......

Well, it is a difficult thing to submit to but the reason it is difficult is because humans are inherently prideful. If we end up in hell we want to say that we go there because we chose to go there. The flip side of that is, of course, that if we end up in Heaven we end up there because we chose to go there which diminishes the great sacrifice of Christ on our behalf and the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit and, in turn, elevates our own self.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

According to Romans 8:

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

It was only those He foreknew that He predestined, so it still is a choice. After all, Jesus wants to save everyone. So in a sense, it is a choice, and in another sense, it is predestination. According to the passage, nobody going to hell was foreknew to want to be with God

Just so I'm clear, are you understanding "foreknew" to mean that God knew what we would choose before we made the choice?

If so, I encourage you to consider that "foreknew" isn't merely knowing ahead of time. It is a reference to an intimate relationship with God. It is the same type of intimate relationship that denoted when the Bible speaks of a man "knowing" his wife, though that, of course, also carries a sexual connotation.

God bless