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How Many Of You Are Telling The Truth ...?

KCKID

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I personally have long suspected that many Christians lie not only to others but also to themselves. The particular sins that are so-called 'abominations' to God are plentiful in the Bible. But probably most people are in total ignorance as to what they are. The average 'pew-warmer' (no offense) would perhaps not realize that they themselves commit one or more of these professed 'abominations' on a daily basis. Indeed, the author/s of these particular condemning scriptures were also human and one would surmize that they too would have fallen foul of these 'abominations' fairly regularly.

But yet ...homosexuality stands out way above the other 'abominations' contained in the Bible ...if indeed one's natural sexual orientation toward another of the same gender IS an 'abomination' to begin with. Many Christians are very bold, some quite quite militant in fact, in their approach against homosexuality. Even if they don't take to marching the streets with banners they still do vent their wrath in other ways toward homosexuality though in a less exhibitionistic manner. Surely, after reading some of those 'antigay' posts on this sub-forum one must wonder WHY this is. One need not be a Rhodes Scholar to realize that something other than the Bible is driving these people ...or MANY of them anyway.

Below is a post (19-1-2007) at the Atheist Ethicist, The Source Of Hatred, where Alonzo Fyfe explores the question of why theists hate homosexuals. It's rather lengthy but easy reading.

< Staff Edit source link: http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2007/01/source-of-hatred.html >

The vast majority of people who claim to oppose homosexuality (or civil unions, for that matter) for religious reasons are lying.

They may be lying to themselves as much as they are lying to others. We have a great deal of evidence to show that people are capable of embracing the greatest absurdities when it is psychologically comforting to do so. A person who is unwilling to face the true nature of their disapproval of homosexuals, and unwilling to accept what it says about them as a person, can easily grab onto a lie that gives them an illusion of legitimacy.

However, whether this is self-deception or an attempt to deceive others, few people, if any, actually oppose homosexuality for religious reasons.
This can be proved.

There is a fire, and the fire department needs to determine what caused it. The investigator sets out to do his work. He gathers evidence and conducts experiments. Then, several weeks later, he calls a press conference to discuss his findings. He reports that the reason for the fire was the presence of oxygen in the air, because his research has shown that if there was no oxygen there would have been no fire.

Immediately, the mayor of that community would have reason to start looking for a new fire marshal.

&#8220;Excuse me, Mr. Investigator. There is oxygen present in every house on the planet. Yet, very few of them burned down. When we asked you to find the cause of this fire, we were asking you to explain why this particular house burned down. The cause that we are interested in is what makes this house different from all of the houses that did not burn down.&#8221;

Anybody who gives us a reason, where we can answer that there is another case where that reason applies but the outcome one is trying to explain did not come about, has given us a poor reason indeed. We are justified, in these instances, to answer, &#8220;That is not the real reason. We need you to give us a reason that actually explains what we asked you to explain.&#8221;
 
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AetheriusLamia

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Gah. I lost interest in the OP shortly after reading the following:
This can be proved.
I prefer the word "proven" ... "proved" just sounds silly to me. You might as well say to me, "My bicycle was stoled."

I lost interest though because I've heard the argument I think is being made here countless times. "Don't remove the speck in your brother's eye until you remove the plank from your own."

Telling people not to sin is good advice, but it's not useful.
 
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KCKID

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Gah. I lost interest in the OP shortly after reading the following: I prefer the word "proven" ... "proved" just sounds silly to me. You might as well say to me, "My bicycle was stoled."

I lost interest though because I've heard the argument I think is being made here countless times. "Don't remove the speck in your brother's eye until you remove the plank from your own."

Telling people not to sin is good advice, but it's not useful.

So much for Alonzo Fyfe's wrong usage of grammar. I perhaps should have corrected it so as not to detract from the main gist of the post. There is also at least one other spelling mistake that you evidently didn't spot. :)

The point of the OP IS that many Christians LIE (or don't 'fess up' to) about their reasons - which THEY claim are scriptural - for condemning homosexuality. Grammar and spelling aside, do you have any thoughts on this? If you had read the post you would realize that it has little or nothing to do with the tired argument about removing the log in one's eye.
 
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Texas Lynn

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I think the idea that the antigay movement is "religious based" can be proven to be false because the fear, hatred, and prejudice always comes out. "But it's in the BIIIIIIIIIII-IIIIBLE!!!" is just a supporting factor. The Biblical literalism applied in this manner is nothing but a highly selective effort at it to confirm one's previously exisiting biases. The antigay cohort cite the same obscure passages repeatedly while ignoring adjacent ones which are inconvenient to them. That any heterosexual not an expert in the field, not LGBT or a parent of an LGBT child, would seek to memorize these is a measure of the pathology of their affliction. There is a certain subset of extreme far right Christians who chomp at the bit to "witness" (meaning "browbeat") Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, Muslims, atheists, LGBTs et al but especially LGBTs. These individuals are no different from any other species of bully.
 
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Apollo Celestio

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God first, man second. It's that simple. That just sounds like wishful thinking and false assumptions that people "hate" when they don't.
I'd probably be an advocate if the scriptures that condemn it as sin against God were absent. I didn't think it was a sin until I joined this board. (Though I did think that people could choose it.) I do not hate anyone, and I will not tolerate any accusations of such things. I'm sick of it. Good faulty biblical interpretations too..
 
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savedandhappy1

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Jesus prophesied, "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." One of the most visible evidences of the fulfillment of this prophecy is that even among Christians, reproof is not welcome. Do you ever submit to reproof from anyone who has no carnal power to punish you for resisting? Are you unwilling to confront anyone else for their sins or errors, unless you are sure that there is no way for them punish you for doing so? Do you "fellowship in the light", or are you party to a multitude of "unspoken agreements", in which you will tolerate someone else's faults and errors, if only they will tolerate YOURS?

So, in the end, you are judged as unfaithful and cowardly for failing to confront your brother, and the word of reproof is denied to the brother who needed to hear it because he was unteachable. Besides, it is now commonly held, that anyone who would be so bold as to point out to someone else their sins has no love, or is guilty of unrighteous judging.

Prov.15:31 The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise.

There is no such thing as the fellowship of the saints without the reproof of life. Without it, all that is left is deception, guile, and alienation which are then relabeled as "patience, mercy, and tolerance". Everyone is careful not to step on anyone else's toes, lest they be accused of "the pot calling the kettle, black." Hence, you and everyone else are left in your sins and errors for years, while you excuse yourselves in the knowledge that "nobody's perfect". What then? Is mercy nothing more than the self-serving willingness to wink at evil, dishonesty, hardheartedness, pride and stubborness? Is the silent tolerance of one another's faults the expression of the love of God? Or is it rather, that all correction is grievous to you, and you hate reproof? Jesus described the reality of the matter when he said:

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Those who seek for the kingdom of God and His righteousness do not despise the reproof of life: neither the giving of it, nor the receiving of it. Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness will heed the Words of our Saviour, who commanded us to love one another even as He loved us. In His own Words, He said, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten..." (Rev. 3:19).

Have you already decided that anyone who complains to you about your attitudes, doctrines, or actions, could not possibly be sent by Jesus Christ for your benefit. Are you one of those who quickly point out that nobody is perfect, meaning that since I am not perfect, I have no right to stick my nose into your business. Were the Apostles PERFECT? Are you also prepared to insist that Jesus would never send someone to warn you about your sins and errors? And what if you are the one who is being sent to confront your brother about his sins? Do you refuse on the grounds that he is likely to retaliate, just like you would? Will you leave him in his error or his sin, with a complete disregard for the ruin that he could suffer for it? Will you END UP JUDGING the command of the Holy Ghost to confront this brother, as a temptation to either sin or bring needless trouble on yourself? Do you want to be reconciled to your brother? or do you wish he would "just go away" so that you will not be burdened or inconvenienced by him?

http://www.apostasynow.com/articles/reproof.html

There are scriptures that speak about saving a soul when we help a brother/sister who has fallen, along with scriptures that speak about correcting, exhorting, etc.

We are to love our neighbor as ourselves, and so since I what to be held accountable by my brohers/sisters, and the Lord, I will hold others accountable.
 
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O

onemessiah

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Jesus prophesied, "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." One of the most visible evidences of the fulfillment of this prophecy is that even among Christians, reproof is not welcome. Do you ever submit to reproof from anyone who has no carnal power to punish you for resisting? Are you unwilling to confront anyone else for their sins or errors, unless you are sure that there is no way for them punish you for doing so? Do you "fellowship in the light", or are you party to a multitude of "unspoken agreements", in which you will tolerate someone else's faults and errors, if only they will tolerate YOURS?

So, in the end, you are judged as unfaithful and cowardly for failing to confront your brother, and the word of reproof is denied to the brother who needed to hear it because he was unteachable. Besides, it is now commonly held, that anyone who would be so bold as to point out to someone else their sins has no love, or is guilty of unrighteous judging.

Prov.15:31 The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise.

There is no such thing as the fellowship of the saints without the reproof of life. Without it, all that is left is deception, guile, and alienation which are then relabeled as "patience, mercy, and tolerance". Everyone is careful not to step on anyone else's toes, lest they be accused of "the pot calling the kettle, black." Hence, you and everyone else are left in your sins and errors for years, while you excuse yourselves in the knowledge that "nobody's perfect". What then? Is mercy nothing more than the self-serving willingness to wink at evil, dishonesty, hardheartedness, pride and stubborness? Is the silent tolerance of one another's faults the expression of the love of God? Or is it rather, that all correction is grievous to you, and you hate reproof? Jesus described the reality of the matter when he said:

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Those who seek for the kingdom of God and His righteousness do not despise the reproof of life: neither the giving of it, nor the receiving of it. Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness will heed the Words of our Saviour, who commanded us to love one another even as He loved us. In His own Words, He said, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten..." (Rev. 3:19).

Have you already decided that anyone who complains to you about your attitudes, doctrines, or actions, could not possibly be sent by Jesus Christ for your benefit. Are you one of those who quickly point out that nobody is perfect, meaning that since I am not perfect, I have no right to stick my nose into your business. Were the Apostles PERFECT? Are you also prepared to insist that Jesus would never send someone to warn you about your sins and errors? And what if you are the one who is being sent to confront your brother about his sins? Do you refuse on the grounds that he is likely to retaliate, just like you would? Will you leave him in his error or his sin, with a complete disregard for the ruin that he could suffer for it? Will you END UP JUDGING the command of the Holy Ghost to confront this brother, as a temptation to either sin or bring needless trouble on yourself? Do you want to be reconciled to your brother? or do you wish he would "just go away" so that you will not be burdened or inconvenienced by him?

http://www.apostasynow.com/articles/reproof.html

There are scriptures that speak about saving a soul when we help a brother/sister who has fallen, along with scriptures that speak about correcting, exhorting, etc.

We are to love our neighbor as ourselves, and so since I what to be held accountable by my brohers/sisters, and the Lord, I will hold others accountable.


That's great, now get off the homos (so to speak) and start holding the shellfish eaters accountable too, since you're so *concerned* about your brothers' eternal damnation.
 
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Armistead

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People often ignore their own sins, while pointing out the sins of others. This is man's genetics to make himself feel he is more worthly.

Why many things in the article don't apply, shellfish, sabbath, ect--the levitical law was put away and replaced by the law of love. However, the church will rave over homo. behavior, when many hypocrites fill the pews.

Frankfully, the act of homosexuality disgust me, but I'm not doing it. What someone does behind their own door is not my business.

I would rather see gays have the right to marry and promote monogamy and insure legal rights and protections for family members. Sadly, the radical gay agenda is harming gays. I don't want any sexual agenda taught or promoted in schools, ect. I hate when any group uses tactics to control the thoughts of youth.
 
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savedandhappy1

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That's great, now get off the homos (so to speak) and start holding the shellfish eaters accountable too, since you're so *concerned* about your brothers' eternal damnation.


Me thinks you should get off the shellfish eaters example, since the NT tells us that no food is bad. I can get that scripture if you need me too?

Now it does say that if you think it is bad/sin then for you it would be a sin to eat shellfish, and it would be bad/sin for me, if knowing that, I would eat shellfish in front of you. So if we are ever together eating please be sure I know you are there and that you consider shellfish eating a sin, because I wouldn't want to do anything to make a person stumble.

You probably won't have to worry though, because I don't really like shellfish, but my husband does and I know he wouldn't want to be a stumbling block either. So please be sure if you are out eating that you make your brothers/sisters aware of your belief on shellfish.

If you have problems with mixed fabrics please let us know also, because most brothers/sister, that I know, wouldn't want to be a strumbling block in anyway.

God Bless.
 
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savedandhappy1

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People often ignore their own sins, while pointing out the sins of others. This is man's genetics to make himself feel he is more worthly.


If only that was so. Since I have never seen anyone say they are sinless or sin less then it appears that trying to point things away from the subject must be used.

What I have read is many post that remind us that we all are sinners and fall short of the glory of God. That there is none righteous no not one.

What I see is people following the Bible when it says to speak the truth, and also to correct, exhort, etc.

What I see is someone loving someone enough, that no matter what names they are called or how they are treated they continue to speak the truth.

Why many things in the article don't apply, shellfish, sabbath, ect--the levitical law was put away and replaced by the law of love. However, the church will rave over homo. behavior, when many hypocrites fill the pews.

Your understanding of the type of love the Bible speaks of is??????????????

Shellfish, sabbath strawman for sale low prices, come one come all to the sale.

Frankfully, the act of homosexuality disgust me, but I'm not doing it. What someone does behind their own door is not my business.

Is that why the woman caught behind closed doors in adultery was brought to Jesus? No she shouldn't have been brought out that way, but Jesus didn't tell her what she was doing was ok either, now did He?

What do you do with the scriptures that tell us to try and restore a fallen brother or sister?

What do you do with the scriptures that tell us not to be with those who will not listen to correction, exhortation, etc.?
 
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Texas Lynn

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Regarding the OP, I don't think most christians consciously lie to themselves. They seem to actually believe the rubbish.

Fundamentalists, maybe. Please don't confuse regular Christians with that bunch. George W. Bush is not one; heck, he was raised Episcopalian. He just became an expert on schmoozing them during his father's 1988 campaign.
 
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Texas Lynn

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Me thinks you should get off the shellfish eaters example, since the NT tells us that no food is bad. I can get that scripture if you need me too?

Now it does say that if you think it is bad/sin then for you it would be a sin to eat shellfish, and it would be bad/sin for me, if knowing that, I would eat shellfish in front of you. So if we are ever together eating please be sure I know you are there and that you consider shellfish eating a sin, because I wouldn't want to do anything to make a person stumble.

You probably won't have to worry though, because I don't really like shellfish, but my husband does and I know he wouldn't want to be a stumbling block either. So please be sure if you are out eating that you make your brothers/sisters aware of your belief on shellfish.

If you have problems with mixed fabrics please let us know also, because most brothers/sister, that I know, wouldn't want to be a strumbling block in anyway.

God Bless.

As well as getting off LGBTs because the concept to love another physically of the same gender being sinful is obviously a primitive social construct just like the ban on scrimps and Ban-Lon.

Religious folks do their version of what we call in the therapeutic community "an intervention" such as confronting an alcoholic and changing family dynamics which previously indulged such a one, and it is appropriate in such cases. However, it is NEVER appropriate toward an LGBT person if addressing that individual's sexuality. Now, promiscuity, regardless of orientation, okay. They intervene on that in the MCC (Metropolitan Community Church, a mostly LGBT Pentecostal denomination).
 
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KCKID

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Regarding the OP, I don't think most christians consciously lie to themselves. They seem to actually believe the rubbish.

The point of the OP is that the huge majority of Christians would dislike/disapprove of homosexuals/homosexuality REGARDLESS of what the Bible/God may or may not have to say about the issue. They use the Bible/God merely to support their OWN heart agenda. This is being dishonest. Therefore they are lying. They also unwittingly shoot themselves in the foot when they target homosexuality but blatantly ignore the many scriptures that refer to some very clearly defined commands/abominations/sins unlike those supposedly pertaining to homosexuality. One of those clearly defined abominations is ...um, lying.

As you've already noticed ...our anti-gay brothers and sisters are conspicuous on this thread by their absence.
 
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KCKID

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Frankfully, the act of homosexuality disgusts me, but I'm not doing it.

No offense but I was somewhat bemused by your above statement. Apparently homosexuals are equally disgusted by the act of heterosexuality so it's all relative, isn't it? The very thought of any of my friends from church particpating in (heterosexual, I guess) sex seems a tad off-putting for me. Perhaps such personal/intimate thoughts about either orientation are better off not being thought about in the first place. :)
 
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